Racing Chat- Sunday 14th August

[Zilzalian]

PROBLEM

This post is in no way being critical of anyone least of all @MCLARKE. I have got a beef and would like some feedback. The naps table with its current rules in my opinion is not a level playing field. Here is my beef... I have two winning naps this month the first Botanik Bet365 BOG won for me at 9/1, it returned on the naps table at 11/4 a significant deduction you will all agree, the reason was because it was a French race rule- sp only, the second winner Techno Music bet365 BOG won at 28/1 returned on the naps table at 10/1 a significant reduction once again, the reason, it was a race in Germany rule-sp only. I contend that this is unfair and can see no reason for this/these rule/s and ask that it/they be scrapped maybe with a proviso that if asked, proof that the price claimed must be produced because I recognise that MCLARK has a difficult enough job as it is. The competition must be fair to all and those submitting naps on European races should not be penalised. I also realise that there is a rule that says Cards must be available in either the racing post and or Attheraces why? whats wrong with Bet365 or any other bog site PP Betvictor Betfred etc, the racing post has selected cards from all over the world as does ATR. oddly enough Hoppergarten Germany was on neither but unbelievably obscure cards were listed namely seoul south korea and wadonga australia. but germany Hoppergarten wasnt.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Zilzalian

[Zilzalian]

[Budgie 65]

I don't know I had USA races 6/1 returned 6/4 I had a good moan.Michaels busy enough it would be extra work so I think keep it same we kno what the rules are

[kensland]

Chelmsford. 

Single. 

2.00. Miss Blennerhasset.        4/1... none runner... Replaced with. 4.55. Jeanette May  7/2   win. 

Good luck all. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by kensland

[alexcaruso808]

I’m guessing the rules are there to keep everything as simple as possible and so @MCLARKE doesn’t have to scour different bookies, websites, asking members for Proof of odds etc.  I’m assuming he has most of it automated, through the use of some kind of a webscraper.  

[calva decoy]

Other than bet365 I don't know of any bookie who offers b.o.g. on European & Rest of the World racing & they've tightened up especially with US racing not posting prices for regular racing the day before which used to be a fantastic edge pricewise but as for @Zilzalian I feel his frustrations but rules are rules I suppose I just treat this as a friendly competitive site with a bit of banter thrown in win lose or draw .

Edited August 14, 2022 by calva decoy

[Tedthewolf]

BOG  was tried before  in the naps thread was a lot of hard work and hassle wrong prices quoated  etc  that's  my memory of it was a long time ago.

Best keep as is i would have thought  but that's just my view and i don't even post there

Edited August 14, 2022 by Tedthewolf

[harry_rag]

I can’t see anything in the rules that expressly states that German or French races will be settled at SP only. There seems to be 2 relevant rules; the one about the race being on RP/ATR and the one about the price stated being displayed on Oddschecker. (I don’t know how likely it is that the latter would apply.)

So I’d say that the early price should be allowed if it satisfied both of those criteria.

I can see why both rules are in place from the point of view of ease of running the competition, so the question is whether the site has any inclination to review them. But (unless I’ve missed something) early prices should be allowed if the meeting is on RP/ATR & the price on OC.

There is an SP only rule in respect of USA, Australia and Hong Kong.

Edited August 14, 2022 by harry_rag

[Budgie 65]

225 Pon wor Willie 17/10

[Zilzalian]

Lots of people being dismissive saying keep it as it is, rules are rules, sorry that doesnt wash or solve the problem and i dare say if it doesn't apply to you then thats the easy/lazy response, if it did happen to you i would lay good money your thinking would totally change. i let the first nap "Botanik" go just as i have done in previous years. but now i feel i am at an unfair disadvantage, i regard the naps competition as a bit of fun and a bit of a challenge, any monetry aspect is erelevant to me, the two naps i have had would have put me in the top three on the table. Although the nap was Missed out last night because Mclarke couldnt confirm it (the actual 10/1 sp) once adjusted my position would be 26th ish. bottom line I put up a post yesterday that included Techno Music anyone on this site could have backed it at 28/1 right up until the off, believe me i watched it, the last show was 28/1 but returned 10/1 that to me is mind boggling. Lets add something here France and Germany horses are part and parcel of the european pattern season a German horse won the arc, a german horse Novemba came over here this summer and won one of our group races french horses are common place over here as we are in france and germany (today for example) hoppegarten and Deauville so i am not talking about obscure and or distant countries like USA, Australia. hong kong, japan. just because a rule exists does not mean it is either correct and or cant be changed. Those saying @MCLARKEjob is difficult enough i have already agreed with but sorry you dont speak on his behalf, he still has to check/confirm the results BOG or no BOG he had to ask me where he could find the result last night anyway, If Mclarke turned around to me and said Its too much messing about and it will make my job so much harder i will say okay no problem. To those that read the origional comment and dissmissed it, read at it again and think of it in the context that it was you writing it.

[Zilzalian]

36 minutes ago, harry_rag said:

I can’t see anything in the rules that expressly states that German or French races will be settled at SP only. There seems to be 2 relevant rules; the one about the race being on RP/ATR and the one about the price stated being displayed on Oddschecker. (I don’t know how likely it is that the latter would apply.)

So I’d say that the early price should be allowed if it satisfied both of those criteria.

I can see why both rules are in place from the point of view of ease of running the competition, so the question is whether the site has any inclination to review them. But (unless I’ve missed something) early prices should be allowed if the meeting is on RP/ATR & the price on OC.

There is an SP only rule in respect of USA, Australia and Hong Kong.

Good response. Regarding your "I can’t see anything in the rules that expressly states that German or French races will be settled at SP only." i argued that when i first came on this site and was told that i was wrong it had always been the rule so i let it drop. Add to that what i said about Hoppergarten  i couldnt find it on ATR but ATR was full of Meetings from all over the world ie south korea etc (oddly enough it is on both RP and ATR today simply because an Appleby horse is running i assume) i would contend that if i post a nap with a bog and all others on this site can go back that nap at that price then it should stand. Thank you for your measured response it is appreciated.

[Gary66]

Adrianmassey.com is great site for help with stats and all sorts of course info when selecting bets or naps

[alexcaruso808]

You seem unhappy with both UK racing and now it's the naps.  I guess you could run your own non-UK naps contest with your rules.  That's what I would do if I was in your position, having re-read your post and thought about it from your POV.  At the end of the day, his house, his rules.  

[MCLARKE]

1 hour ago, harry_rag said:

There seems to be 2 relevant rules; the one about the race being on RP/ATR and the one about the price stated being displayed on Oddschecker. (I don’t know how likely it is that the latter would apply.)

So I’d say that the early price should be allowed if it satisfied both of those criteria.

Both rules were not satisfied. I believe the 1st rule is in place to make the admin easier. For the 2nd rule if the price cannot be verified then SP must be used.

Personally I detest foreign selections, the data feed I use for my results only include UK / Ireland so I have to  do a lot of manual amendments as well as finding and checking the results. Having said that I do understand @Zilzalian's frustration. 

I am open to changing the rules if appropriate.

One option maybe that for foreign races proof is needed in terms of a screenshot that shows the price, otherwise the selection will be deemed a loser.

[The Scientist]

Fascinating....I have proven myself totally useless at tipping so I take my hat off to all of you. I keep asking myself...why do my bookie accounts go up and up while my tips go down and down?

Obviously, I am changing my mind rapidly as the race time gets closer and closer.and moving I move generally in a progressive direction.

But something strange has happened. Doncaster, Southwell, Ripon, Beverley, Nottingham, Sedgefield, Catterick where I would set off confident of making a nice profit on the day are now puzzling me. Tracks which puzzled me, and a hard day awaited were York, Pontefract, Haydock and Redcar. I walked all the tracks until, I got a handle on them. Some I never did. But Ripon bothers me most. Its gone from top to bottom. I could see every hollow every draw going advantage. Now I see nothing.

And Southwell where I landed many big bets is just a total mystery. Absence does not make my heart grow fonder. At Southwell, Id watch carefully all the horses take their first canter on to the sand. Their expressions said it all.

"Im not galloping on this crap heap"Or " At last, a track I can enjoy!"

What a pity the Nottinghamshire desert track is now ? What is it? Tapeta? 

Anyway my four ew picks at Southwell are 2.08 Hoots Toots 3.53 Radri. 5.03 The Tron. 5.33 Lord Totorranga

All boring shortish prices...sorry

[justanotherpunter]

Both rules were not satisfied. I believe the 1st rule is in place to make the admin easier. For the 2nd rule if the price cannot be verified then SP must be used.

Personally I detest foreign selections, the data feed I use for my results only include UK / Ireland so I have to  do a lot of manual amendments as well as finding and checking the results. Having said that I do understand @Zilzalian's frustration.

I would also restrict selections to UK/Ireland and only settle tips to SP as there is too much leeway for abuse with early prices/BOG - only my opinion mind you

[MCLARKE]

18 minutes ago, justanotherpunter said:

I would also restrict selections to UK/Ireland and only settle tips to SP as there is too much leeway for abuse with early prices/BOG - only my opinion mind you

I can understand the use of BOG as it is almost impossible to make long term profits using SP.

To be fair I do check the early prices and there is no evidence of abuse. 

 

[Zilzalian]

17 minutes ago, MCLARKE said:

Both rules were not satisfied. I believe the 1st rule is in place to make the admin easier. For the 2nd rule if the price cannot be verified then SP must be used.

Personally I detest foreign selections, the data feed I use for my results only include UK / Ireland so I have to  do a lot of manual amendments as well as finding and checking the results. Having said that I do understand @Zilzalian's frustration. 

I am open to changing the rules if appropriate.

One option maybe that for foreign races proof is needed in terms of a screenshot that shows the price, otherwise the selection will be deemed a loser.

I fully support and agree with you on  what you suggest about proof being required if needed, one small point, the nap stated bog bet365 so the result @sp was verifable on their results. in this case 10/1. Also as @harry_ragsays above there is no rule that says french and german will be settled at sp only.

[justanotherpunter]

I can understand the use of BOG as it is almost impossible to make long term profits using SP. -

It may be harder to make long term profits in the long run - however using SP would create a level playing field for all - not just a few - in my opinion only

and restricting selections to UK/Ireland would also create a level playing field for all

I have had past experiences with betting USA and South African racing and I was able to see early moves before bet365 prices were affected (S.A racing especially).

So an unfair advantage could be gained using certain platforms/information etc.

[kroni]

Deauville

1258 - Ipanema Princess @ 25/1 e-w Bet365

133 - Lassaut @ 11/4 Bet365 won

255 - Light Infantry @ 18/1 e-w Bet365 2nd @ 22/1 / State Of Rest @ 5/1 e-w Bet365

330 - Riocorvo @ 12/1 e-w Bet365

405 - Kawida @ 8/1 e-w Bet365

Edited August 14, 2022 by kroni

[Zilzalian]

255 deauville interesting to see how the 3yos get on in this, if i am correct in my thinking it is worth crossing all the older horses in forecasts.

INCONCLUSION - Very fast speed figure Inspiral. so we have the top 3yo against maybe the second division of the older horses in this race.

best of the older horses was order of australia (4th) Corebus (3yo) 5th. so order of australia not at the top of the older horses division by most measures  so im still favouring that the clasic generation is inferior to the older horses.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Zilzalian
update

[MCLARKE]

15 minutes ago, justanotherpunter said:

It may be harder to make long term profits in the long run - however using SP would create a level playing field for all - not just a few - in my opinion only

and restricting selections to UK/Ireland would also create a level playing field for all

I have had past experiences with betting USA and South African racing and I was able to see early moves before bet365 prices were affected (S.A racing especially).

So an unfair advantage could be gained using certain platforms/information etc.

Hopefully the fact that we only use a small number of major bookmakers should avoid this.

I don't think there has been a selection from SA whilst I've been running the comp.

[The Equaliser]

No scope for a multiple bet today so will put up some singles win bets

1.50 Pont Talha 0.30 at 10/1

3.00 Pon Gale Force Maya 2 pts win at 3.35 (my PL Nap today) + Barbanera 0.30 win at 18/1 @Quartu SEew nap and 0.15 at 28/1 win on Favourite Child @waggy ew Nap

3.35 Pon Sanitiser 1 pt win at 3/1 (I just like the horse)

2.35 Chelm Jedba 0.60 win at 10/1

3.10 Chelm Sky Blue Pink 0.30 win at 14/1

3.53 Sou Society Lion 0.30 win at 16/1, Gowan Lad 0.3 win at 22/1 and Dark shot 0.30 win at 16/1

Total stakes = 5.55

This is more like my idea of fun than bitching all day long

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RESULTS UPDATE

A complete blank today I'm afraid.  Quite a few favourites went in today and you will rarely see me complain about that. -5.55 = MTD -35.58 & YTD -237.76

I will have to wait until the evening races tomorrow at Windsor and Bangor for Class 4 and upwards races.  Nothing doing for me tomorrow afternoon

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by The Equaliser
RESULTS UPDATE

[kensland]

Southwell. 

Double. 

3.18. Ahamoment.      8/1

3.53. Dark Shot.             14/1

singles & double ew 

Good luck all. 

[justanotherpunter]

I don't think there has been a selection from SA whilst I've been running the comp.

No I was referring to a number of years ago when I was only betting on SA racing (no UK racing involved at all) - I entered a few selections away back

At the time I was using betfair and using another app and at the time I was able to watch and see the betting begin to take shape long before bet365 etc moved

and even before betfair moved much - I was able to take advantage of early prices on bet365.

I would assume that other methods are also available to take early advantage - I gave up on SA racing some years ago as I found it too time consuming and I was unable to lose all my money on UK racing as I do now ?

[kroni]

13 hours ago, Zilzalian said:

PROBLEM

This post is in no way being critical of anyone least of all @MCLARKE. I have got a beef and would like some feedback. The naps table with its current rules in my opinion is not a level playing field. Here is my beef... I have two winning naps this month the first Botanik Bet365 BOG won for me at 9/1, it returned on the naps table at 11/4 a significant deduction you will all agree, the reason was because it was a French race rule- sp only, the second winner Techno Music bet365 BOG won at 28/1 returned on the naps table at 10/1 a significant reduction once again, the reason, it was a race in Germany rule-sp only. I contend that this is unfair and can see no reason for this/these rule/s and ask that it/they be scrapped maybe with a proviso that if asked, proof that the price claimed must be produced because I recognise that MCLARK has a difficult enough job as it is. The competition must be fair to all and those submitting naps on European races should not be penalised. I also realise that there is a rule that says Cards must be available in either the racing post and or Attheraces why? whats wrong with Bet365 or any other bog site PP Betvictor Betfred etc, the racing post has selected cards from all over the world as does ATR. oddly enough Hoppergarten Germany was on neither but unbelievably obscure cards were listed namely seoul south korea and wadonga australia. but germany Hoppergarten wasnt.

I know couple of years ago we had BOG on naps for USA and French racing, but now i guess its not easy to verify since Oddschecker no longer shows Bet365 odds for French USA etc...  i contacted oddschecker about this and they said it was down to bet365's code. It would seem bet365 dont want their odds on oddschecker for these races, as when it comes to a big day like Breeders Cup or Arc day bet365 must change their code and the odds appear on oddschecker.

[black rabbit]

Irish Times  4 20  CHMS     1/5 pt  win    15/1

EBOUR / FLAG  -   a week is a long time in horse racing amoung other  things -

but i have had an  investment  ew on Benaud 38/1 /

 

 

 

 

P/L  +  147  pts

Edited August 14, 2022 by black rabbit

[Zilzalian]

A level playing field only needs there to be an equal chance for all, like i have said elswhere if i nap a horse in Europe as long as everyone can get on that horse at that price (obviously with a bit of variation sps being time fluid) at that time it is fair, that is to say as long as anyone has the same opportunity to nap any given horse at the time of placing the bet then there is no contention and it is fair.

Of all the suggestions the one i dont like is scrap BOG for the naps and in principle i would agree but the only problem is it bears no relation to personal profit and loss. surely thats the very idea of competition. @MCLARKEis running an experiment based around value in odds on shots for punters on here to give concideration too we all know value is everything in betting. It is a far greater risk picking double figure odds for the comp than randomly picking a fav.

Example- (re- the naps comp and table). I made £280 on that nap, if i had left itand or been penalised to SP I would have made £100 so the work i put in to identify good or excellent value then becomes negated compared to a pin sticker choosing the same horse hours later.

[Tedthewolf]

3.00 Pon- There should not  be much between Chill Chill & Gayle  Force Mayo i would favour the former but will try a small RFC for interest as i feel these two will be clear of the rest.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Tedthewolf

[Tedthewolf]

29 minutes ago, Tedthewolf said:

3.00 Pon- There should not  be much between Chill Chill & Gayle  Force Mayo i would favour the former but will try a small RFC for interest as i feel these two will be clear of the rest.

2nd & 3rd beaten by The  Dog  & Duck horse.......think i will stick to big handicaps!