The Mole

[JulioArca]

Re: The Mole :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy Respect :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy Nice to see someone win more in one hand than I win in a year ! :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy Respect :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

[morlspin]

Re: The Mole

Aye probably i just look a little in front at a time' date=' but i reckon i will go to the newcastle one.[/quote'] nice one, be good to get a proper conversation with you for once!:ok

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

nice one' date=' be good to get a proper conversation with you for once!:ok[/quote'] Aye agreed you always seem to be drunk when i meet you :)

[gavham]

Re: The Mole This hand shows my confidence is back, These are the type of hands i win a lot, i know he can,t be strong mid pair at most and i have a draw + 2 overs, showing no weakness makes it hard for him to call the river bet. This is not one of my bigger hands but an important one nevertheless ***** Hand 1045156755 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 18 April 2008 17:38:22 Table TH 694 (Real /Cash Game ) Seat 2: tioseba (5837.61) Seat 3: BluffU_89 (2656.25) Seat 4: the_mole (3824.00) Seat 5: Jomibakku (1970.00) tioseba post SB 10.00 BluffU_89 post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** tioseba [N/A, N/A] BluffU_89 [N/A, N/A] the_mole [Ad, Jc] Jomibakku [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** the_mole Raise to 70.00 Jomibakku Call 70.00 tioseba Fold BluffU_89 Fold *** Flop(Board): *** : [5c, 2h, 4s] *** Bet Round 2 *** the_mole Bet 140.00 Jomibakku Call 140.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [5c, 2h, 4s, 7c] *** Bet Round 3 *** the_mole Bet 420.00 Jomibakku Call 420.00 *** River(Board): *** : [5c, 2h, 4s, 7c, Kc] *** Bet Round 4 *** the_mole Bet 967.50 Jomibakku Fold *** Showdown *** : Rake: 3.00 Total Pot: 1287.00 tioseba Fold Win: 0.00 BluffU_89 Fold Win: 0.00 the_mole By default Win: 1287.00 Jomibakku Fold Win: 0.00

[Football-Tipper]

Re: The Mole Yeah I was watching this hand, must take alot of balls to fire that final bullet

[gavham]

Re: The Mole I am sure this hand will cause some discussions, my thoughts were he had 89 or qk there was no way i thought i was behind and i had outs. ***** Hand 1050550592 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 22 April 2008 16:52:52 Table TH 100 (Real /Cash Game ) Seat 1: apan54 (504.37) Seat 2: Roswita (1851.25) Seat 3: sampey (900.00) Seat 4: Fredewp (9127.19) Seat 5: the_mole (1970.00) apan54 post SB 10.00 Roswita post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** apan54 [N/A, N/A] Roswita [N/A, N/A] sampey [N/A, N/A] Fredewp [N/A, N/A] the_mole [Qc, As] *** Bet Round 1 *** sampey Call 20.00 Fredewp Fold the_mole Raise to 80.00 apan54 Fold Roswita Fold sampey Call 80.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd] *** Bet Round 2 *** sampey Bet 280.00 the_mole Call 280.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s] *** Bet Round 3 *** sampey All-in 540.00 the_mole Call 540.00 *** River(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s, 3d] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 3.00 Total Pot: 1827.00 apan54 Fold Win: 0.00 Roswita Fold Win: 0.00 sampey [8s, 9s] Pair of threes Win: 0.00 Fredewp Fold Win: 0.00 the_mole [Qc, As] Pair of threes , ace kicker Win: 1827.00

[AlunB]

Re: The Mole Interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Is it based on knowledge of that specific player that he wouldn't play top pair (or an underpair/mid pair) that way?

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

Interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Is it based on knowledge of that specific player that he wouldn't play top pair (or an underpair/mid pair) that way?

Well if you read this hand properly i think its easy to come to the same conclusion that i did, he flat calls, i raise, he calls so right away you can rule out a lot of hands.Now he leads out with an over bet to the pot why? when he knows i am likley to put in a continuation bet, and if he is strong why the over bet? so right away i reckon he must be on a draw. turn is a blank he has now forced himself to move all in, and with this all in i am now positive he has 89 or qk so its an easy call. What other hands could you put him on?

[AlunB]

Re: The Mole LOL. Am not questioning your poker knowledge mate - I just meant what I said in that I was interested to know how you got to the conclusion. Your thought process is way more interesting than mine. :notworthy Just wondered why you ruled out something like QJ or that he would never fast play something like 44 or 10J. I don't play these stakes so I don't know. I must admit I did just scan read it and missed the size of the overbet so most of my initial comments don't apply. :$ Edit: I was also wondering what your history was with this player. And if you rated him.

[GaF]

Re: The Mole Wow - that's one heck of a call :loon I confess I had to chuck the cards into Pokerstove to be sure you were ahead when the money went in - you were - 57% v 43% (but if you knew his cards obviously had pretty good odds to call even if behind)

[Valiant23]

Re: The Mole Didn't you even consider that he could have been on J10?

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

LOL. Am not questioning your poker knowledge mate - I just meant what I said in that I was interested to know how you got to the conclusion. Your thought process is way more interesting than mine. :notworthy Just wondered why you ruled out something like QJ or that he would never fast play something like 44 or 10J. I don't play these stakes so I don't know. I must admit I did just scan read it and missed the size of the overbet so most of my initial comments don't apply. :$ Edit: I was also wondering what your history was with this player. And if you rated him.

Sorry Alun if it sounded as though i came over all defensive. I thought this would be an interesting one to post as i didnt think anybody would see it like i did. but when i explain it all it should be pretty clear. 44 - no way has he got a set as he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot. QJ - slight possibility of this but after i call the overbet what must he be thinking as i raised PF so therefore could have anything. JT - again why the overbet ( maybe to take away me hitting a str) but its certainly not the way to get max value with such a strong hand. The fact he made this overbet (out of turn) suggests he doesnt want a call, so therefore the only hands possible here is QK or 89. I dont see any other hand that fits how he played. I have never played this guy before, so have no info on him. The only thing i will say is he is Italian :)

[GaF]

Re: The Mole If this were the hand instead:

***** Hand 1050550592 ***** 0.10/0.20 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 22 April 2008 16:52:52 Table TH 100 (Real /Cash Game ) Seat 1: apan54 (5.04) Seat 2: Roswita (18.51) Seat 3: sampey (9.00) Seat 4: Fredewp (91.27) Seat 5: Valiant23 (19.70) apan54 post SB 0.10 Roswita post BB 0.20 ** Deal ** apan54 [N/A, N/A] Roswita [N/A, N/A] sampey [N/A, N/A] Fredewp [N/A, N/A] Valiant23 [Qc, As] *** Bet Round 1 *** sampey Call 0.20 Fredewp Fold Valiant23 Raise to 0.80 apan54 Fold Roswita Fold sampey Call 0.80 *** Flop(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd] *** Bet Round 2 *** sampey Bet 2.80 Valiant23 Call 2.80 *** Turn(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s] *** Bet Round 3 *** sampey All-in 5.40 Valiant23 Call 5.40 *** River(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s, 3d] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 1.03 Total Pot: 18.27 apan54 Fold Win: 0.00 Roswita Fold Win: 0.00 sampey [8s, 9s] Pair of threes Win: 0.00 Fredewp Fold Win: 0.00 Valiant23 [Qc, As] Pair of threes , ace kicker Win: 18.27

THen I think I'd have been pretty dismissive of it and have said Mr V was a fish and a calling station and he should go away and read some Harrington :tongue2 So it's only because it's you (and your proven track record) that it looks like genius instead of Fish/Calling Station - so any information you can give on your higher reasoning - your considerations - what went through your mind to arrive at the decision will I'm sure be really interesting to all of us :ok The bottom line seems to just be extreme confidence on your read of what he had - do you get it badly wrong very often?

[GaF]

Re: The Mole

44 - no way has he got a set as he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot.

Can a bluff only be by betting with little? Can you not also bluff by betting big with abig hand - for precisely the reasoning you suggest - to get your opponent to think "he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot" There is also the flush draw on board - which makes slow playing trips dangerous - especially as you've been calling all the way (though not really with the odds to draw - implied or explicit)....

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

Can a bluff only be by betting with little? Can you not also bluff by betting big with abig hand - for precisely the reasoning you suggest - to get your opponent to think "he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot" There is also the flush draw on board - which makes slow playing trips dangerous - especially as you've been calling all the way (though not really with the odds to draw - implied or explicit)....

Fair enough for him to have a set and bluff me in this manner would just be fantastic play from him so he would deserve his double up ( but i still think this very unlikley) The flush draw only appeared on the turn so why over bet the flop surley i would not call on the strength of runner runner. I think poker is all about how we as individuals read the game, so the stakes dont always matter. If valiant played this hand at lower stakes as you have shown and explained why he ruled out the hands as ive done then yes i think its good play regardless of stakes ( he has made the proper read) Yes i get things wrong sometimes but obviously i get them right more often, thats what makes me a winning player. Dont you think the way i have explained this makes the lighlyhood of him having 89 or qk the most obvious ones? I think when the hand is broken down it must come clear.

[Slick Digital]

Re: The Mole I would like to ask, I would have played the hand differently from his position, there are two ways I would have played it, interested to know how they may of paned out, also which would have been effective if either!!( I am forgetting the stake and pot value simply a chip)))) Play One After calling Pre Flop. Flop I check.(holding 8-9) you either Bet out - at which point I re-raise x2or3 or you check Turn regardless of above I bet out 65% against the pot - you either call/raise or fold if you raise (upto 3x) I call. River I bet out All in - you either call or fold Play 2 After calling pre flop Flop I bet 80 against the pot - you either call, fold or raise. I would have called a re-raise Turn On adding to my stright draw with a flush draw I would have bet out 65% of pot. - you would either call, fold or raise I would have called the re-raise Flop I would have bet all-in. you would either call or fold Either way I would have played the hand for its strengths hoping you had not hit (against your pre flop raise, i know this is a gut play, but the strengths of my hand especially after the turn(although only outs!!) would have been strong enough for me to show a sign of strength at the first oppertunity. I did not know how to copy the hand into this message, and hope he had 89 or spades or else this would have been a waste of time...and i am not a fast typer.......

[gavham]

Re: The Mole I make my decisions with the info i have at the time and that was how i saw it. He could have played this hand a number of ways as you suggest and won it, but the fact is he didnt so we can really only discuss the way it was played and how i read it. I know there is a thin line between fishy/great calls but its how you read it in your head. A fishy call for me is when there is not much justification for making it and a great call is when your pretty sure you know exactly where you are.

[GaF]

Re: The Mole I'm not attacking your play in any way - as I said - your track record is proven and beyond reproach - I want to learn from you (which is why I'm trying to probe) :ok Of course you're right in explaining away that he could put you on the flush draw because you called the overbet on the flop without large implied odds :ok

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

I'm not attacking your play in any way - as I said - your track record is proven and beyond reproach - I want to learn from you (which is why I'm trying to probe) :ok Of course you're right in explaining away that he could put you on the flush draw because you called the overbet on the flop without large implied odds :ok

Again sorry if i come across as being annoyed at being probed, i put this hand on because i knew it would generate discussion and i am certainly not easily offended, so fire away as the idea of this is to help PL improve and see things from a different angle

[happyhornet]

Re: The Mole I thought it was an excellent piece of thinking Mole:notworthy, and perhaps shows the difference between us mere mortals and the best players. I've read through the hand history several times and although it is logical to follow how you came to that conclusion, we have the advantage of knowing what occured. I would have undoubtedly folded:sad.

[Nade]

Re: The Mole What would have made it more interesting is if you chopped off the end and didn't reveal what hand he had instead giving us an attempt to give our reasons for each possibility. It's hard to judge any HH objectively when you know the outcome tbh. Anyway great play. The only thing is when i'm pretty certain of being ahead i raise putting the opponent to the test. In this case though the opponent has got themselves pretty pot committed which might have gone through your head when thinking about re-raising on the flop ?. If you think of it from their PoV i can see what they were trying to do - overbet the flop - to get themselves committed to the hand - but also make it obvious to the opponent (you) that they're committed and so if the opponent isn't confident enough of their hand holding up till the river then they will usually fold. It's a pretty LAG play though and not something i'd do really.

[gavham]

Re: The Mole Ok i'm a fish, Thought he had Ak and i could push him off, but when he called my all in i thought sh*t. I played very reckless today but that can be good for the image. ***** Hand 1052868732 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 April 2008 12:07:26 Table TH 23 (Real /Cash Game ) Seat 1: MINOS100 (5369.50) Seat 2: _illusion_ (3316.00) Seat 4: the_mole (2480.00) Seat 5: Ranked (7554.04) Seat 3: G_O_D (0.00) the_mole post SB 10.00 MINOS100 post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** MINOS100 [N/A, N/A] _illusion_ [N/A, N/A] the_mole [Jd, 4d] *** Bet Round 1 *** _illusion_ Fold the_mole Raise to 80.00 MINOS100 Raise to 240.00 the_mole Raise to 540.00 MINOS100 Call 540.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 9d, 2s] *** Bet Round 2 *** the_mole Bet 860.00 MINOS100 Call 860.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [3s, 9d, 2s, Qc] *** Bet Round 3 *** the_mole All-in 1080.00 MINOS100 Call 1080.00 *** River(Board): *** : [3s, 9d, 2s, Qc, Jh] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 3.00 Total Pot: 4957.00 MINOS100 Fold Win: 0.00 _illusion_ Fold Win: 0.00 the_mole [Jd, 4d] Pair of jacks Win: 4957.00

[Mr Intensity]

Re: The Mole :loon:loon:loon:loon:loon Can I ask why did you re-re-raise pre flop? Did you think he would fold? Being first to act on the flop if I wanted to make a move I'd just call pre flop then bet the flop whatever come:unsure. Did you find out what he had or get any abuse? I know I'd be going mental if I'd lost that:lol:lol:lol

[ubermonkey1]

Re: The Mole

Ok i'm a fish, Thought he had Ak and i could push him off, but when he called my all in i thought sh*t. I played very reckless today but that can be good for the image. after reading your comment about image steph ,just wondering if you specifically show down a few cheap fishy hands to look a bit of a donk ,so you can pick up some bigger pots later? admittedly 2.5k is a bit bigger than i'd like to give away:eekbut i spose its ok if it gets you a 5k pot later:ok

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

:loon:loon:loon:loon:loon Can I ask why did you re-re-raise pre flop? Did you think he would fold? Being first to act on the flop if I wanted to make a move I'd just call pre flop then bet the flop whatever come:unsure. Did you find out what he had or get any abuse? I know I'd be going mental if I'd lost that:lol:lol:lol

I re re re raised the pot to look super strong and ofc hope to take the pot, a lot of people use the re raise to show strength( not always the case) so ive now narrowed him down to 3 or 4 hands AA,KK,QQ or AK when he called the flop bet i had it in my head he has AK and provided no A or K came im all in thinking he folds. As i said this was not the greatest of plays by me but sometimes its good to " go on one" I didnt find out what he had and no i didnt get any abuse. This hand can show why player notes can be usless sometimes, a guy yesterday who i stacked with kk v qq pf said " i should have looked my notes as i have you down as tight" hehe this made me laugh. Yes i can be tight but i can also be very loose so his notes are useless. I dont and never have played "book poker" if everyone did that they would all play much the same, i find it easy to spot players who play from a book and know what i can and cant get away with. I am instinctive and play with gut feeling and how i read the hand, but obviously i take lots of things into account, odds, %s, position, who im playing and their state of mind etc

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

I never specifically set out to lose a hand, but if i do and it looks fishy then i take the positive out of it and use it to my advantage. The hand above is a good one to see how power play works ( although it did go wrong) because what kind of hand do you need to call the 3 big bets

[Mr Intensity]

Re: The Mole Thanks for the explanation:ok After the hand what do think he had? AK flush draw? A9?:unsure

[gavham]

Re: The Mole

Thanks for the explanation:ok After the hand what do think he had? AK flush draw? A9?:unsure

AK was my thoughts all the way through the hand but i now like to think he had TT, thats the sick sense of humour that would appeal to me. Even though people see me as a good player i am still capable of playing like a baboon and that believe it or believe it not is a good thing:lol

[ubermonkey1]

Re: The Mole

nah i know what u mean :okat least you can play your aces the same way when you get em .and like you say he's gotta have a real decent hand to call;)

[BAM]

Re: The Mole

I dont and never have played "book poker" if everyone did that they would all play much the same, i find it easy to spot players who play from a book and know what i can and cant get away with. I am instinctive and play with gut feeling and how i read the hand, but obviously i take lots of things into account, odds, %s, position, who im playing and their state of mind etc

Nails and heads spring to mind ;) I know we have discussed this at great detail but I think it is key for all of us aspiring to your heights that you need to throw that theory out of the window sometimes and go with your instincts. And then on the flip side totally exploit the 'Harrington' player.