Racing Chat Thread

[NeilM]

I hadn't considered that- my father-in-law's horse had an unexpected win here because of it- the jockey told me afterwards (and I saw what he meant when I watched the recording later) that the horse really hated it and just wanted to get out of the way. This wasn't immediately obvious to a spectator. He's only raced once since on the polytrack and was miles behind.

[jayalexander]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Christ, the amount of short priced jump favs being turned over today at Towcester! Glad that I never went to this one otherwise my wallet would be considerably lighter!!! A lesson in jump racing has been learnt (and pennies saved) and it's probably better to stick to more established riders in races at the Northamptonshire track!

[NeilM]

Barney Curley pops up again in the 14:40 Hereford with Giant Sequoia, 5/1 with Bet365 and Paddy's.

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread OK, First post on this thread. Two points today, 1. Dettori ban 6 months, fair enough i thought. Hope he comes back as he was 8 years ago, Hungry 2. And this is alarming, up until a few years ago, I made a living out of the horses, Now its not my thing, although I have many friends in the game, who play. The reason I left it alone(apart from the odd tip/trier) is the amount of blatent disregard for the punter, when one is being laid. We see it alot and we have our own feelings on how a race should have been run, But today i seen something that was, breathtaking in taking the Pi** out of the punter.. In Ireland 3.15, Shake the tree,,,was getting the knuts laid of it,,4/7 fav.... Mullins horse, now the jockey decided to give the field a 15-20 len start in a bumper... Without any urgings stayed like that until 4 f out,,moved his arms a bit, until rattling home and be beaten 4 1/2 lens,,and still be out the frame by a SH.. Plain n simple, a disgrace, and rancid. That is why i now rarely dip my toe in, because unless you are in the know, in the long term you will lose.(imo) I hope you take time to look at this, and give me your opinions. I really do feel sorry for the punters who have backed this horse,,or who were waiting on it in multiples, consider yourself.--.you know what. I

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Phillip Hide almost had a dream start with his debut runner this afternoon at Lingfield, he was a relatively decent jockey with wins at a high level which included a Mackeson ( Paddy Power Gold Cup ).He follows the same route as many former jumps jockeys before him like Durack,Niven,Powell Snr etc..., only time will tell if he will translate his riding success to the training ranks.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

OK, First post on this thread. Two points today, 1. Dettori ban 6 months, fair enough i thought. Hope he comes back as he was 8 years ago, Hungry 2. And this is alarming, up until a few years ago, I made a living out of the horses, Now its not my thing, although I have many friends in the game, who play. The reason I left it alone(apart from the odd tip/trier) is the amount of blatent disregard for the punter, when one is being laid. We see it alot and we have our own feelings on how a race should have been run, But today i seen something that was, breathtaking in taking the Pi** out of the punter.. In Ireland 3.15, Shake the tree,,,was getting the knuts laid of it,,4/7 fav.... Mullins horse, now the jockey decided to give the field a 15-20 len start in a bumper... Without any urgings stayed like that until 4 f out,,moved his arms a bit, until rattling home and be beaten 4 1/2 lens,,and still be out the frame by a SH.. Plain n simple, a disgrace, and rancid. That is why i now rarely dip my toe in, because unless you are in the know, in the long term you will lose.(imo) I hope you take time to look at this, and give me your opinions. I really do feel sorry for the punters who have backed this horse,,or who were waiting on it in multiples, consider yourself.--.you know what. I

Yes very good comments and very true, I share the same opinion about being in the know. There are members on here who will disagree and suggest the sport is straight and defend it rigorously, there are punters on here who after 2 decades of punting have never seen Richard Hughes ride a poor race and ask for examples of his laziness,so they can see for themselves!!

[jayalexander]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread How can a jockey look lazy??? Surely it's the horse!

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Jay, A ferrari will look slow if you dont put the accelerator down, or keep the hand brake on. Let me tell you a story, and I promise you 100% it still goes on today. I was once heavily involved in racing, and we had a couple of handicappers, now as you know at full tilt a horse can only go as fast as its heart n lungs,,and legs will allow, So it all comes down to weight on its back. You eventually hit the right weight on its back to have a fighting chance, The jockey will be told in no uncertain terms, that this is the day, he will then pass on the news to other jockeys at the start, that he is on today...There maybe more in the race with the same mind set, but so be it,,,we then have a race on. Those who arnt,,looking to run down the HCAP, will steer clear, give the others every opportunity,,By doing 1 of several things,,being slowly away,,being on the worst part of the track, running the horse up the backside of others... And the cream of the lot...The trainer of your horse, will give it 1 less gallop leading up to the race,,and more importantly over feed the horse in the days leading up.. When a horse is ready its like a well oiled machine,,,The feed they have been on for the previous 5 days will be ,,whats called in the trade..."ROCKET FUEL" all quality high fibre mix. The one thing you will never ever get to in this game,,Is knowing in advance in each race what the ideal fighting weight of a horse is.. If you know that you have half a chance,,,Only those in the know will be privy.

[jayalexander]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread I was being tongue-in-cheek with my reply to brother Erhaab, but your response is a good'un! I have no doubt that skullduggery occurs in this sport a heck of a lot more than it is uncovered and at times it feels like a lottery that your 2/1 is pipped by a 16/1. When it happens once, I can put it down to luck, but when it's consistently happening...

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread I did not think you were that naieve...... However we can all agree that when it comes to top races,,Group 1's, Chelt, Aintree, Ascot...In most these are run as "the best on the day will win" Unfortunately the above will only account for a very small percentage of races run each year. I got out of the game a few years ago, because i was bleeding money, and refused on several occasions to lay our own horses, when we knew they were'nt off. Added to that some Jockeys having their own agenda, when we were of the opinion everything was right on the day... Too many Jockeys of many years experience having their own agendas...Read that as you will.. Give me an apprentice any day of the week....They always ride to orders.

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Anyhow Good luck with your picks,,settling down to the serious stuff,,FOOTY BETS.. iLL tell you what i have tonight £300 over 3.5 goals on Manu game £300 Shak Don to win 11/4 £150 over 13 corners 3/1 in Manu game Beer n nibbles time GL Guys

[cpo]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Oliver Sherwood got done today for the running of Furrows. I think it was using a race as public schooling. Pretty hefty punishment for all involved but looking back at the race, the horse certainly wasn't asked for any sort of effort and could have finished much closer.

[NeilM]

The charge of 'schooling and/or conditioning on a racecourse' is made something of a mockery of when you consider the number of trainers who say afterwards 'we knew he was a massive long shot but he needed the run which is why we came today.' Essentially they're admitting that they're trying to condition or bring the horse on for a run. I may be in a minority on this but that's how I see it. Unless of course Sherwood tries to pull a fast one regularly and this is the first time the stewards have been able to nail him for something.

[mowgli77]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

Anyhow Good luck with your picks,,settling down to the serious stuff,,FOOTY BETS.. iLL tell you what i have tonight £300 over 3.5 goals on Manu game £300 Shak Don to win 11/4 £150 over 13 corners 3/1 in Manu game Beer n nibbles time GL Guys

I can't get the smilies to work so WELCOME to Punterslounge. We use points instead of pounds as 1 point to you might be a hundred quid where it might be five quid to someone else but we also ask for reasoning unless posts go into the thread where it isn't required. Aidy does the footy threads usually so I'll leave it here for now. Haven't seen results yet so no idea how your bets got on either.

[Lars]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Some hilarious posts on this page of the thread. Not least RIO2014 using an example from Irish Racing, not least a bumper...to generalise racing across the entire UK! Erhaab - no one has ever said Richard Hughes has never ridden a bad race but we've been through this time and again, it is not in the horse's/owners/trainers best interest to ride a horse out to the finish when the horse has nothing more to give and has no chance of making a place at best, it makes no sense to do so whatsoever. Regarding Furrows, it was blatant schooling in public but no doubt they'll appeal and it will get overturned, the trainers nearly always win, as seen in the case of 'Traditional Bob' at Chepstow not so long ago. It's a little unfortunate that they get picked up on it though, when it goes on by certain big connections on a weekly basis and doesn't get picked up by the stewards. One instance was a horse running at Lingfield the other week which was barely put into the race and the stewards did nothing, whilst another in a later race that was given a similar sort of effort (a far worse result mind) was brought up by those at the course and refused to be given a handicap mark. As for your point NeilM, running a horse when it's unfit and has little chance of winning, but actually physically trying to win the race is a far lesser crime (if a crime at all) than blatantly not trying to win the race at all, regardless of the fitness of said animal.

[NeilM]

I quite agree. My issue is that trainers often imply that they've come to a race fully knowing they wouldn't win and have said afterwards that the horse needed to experience race conditions.

[Aidymac]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

Some hilarious posts on this page of the thread. Not least RIO2014 using an example from Irish Racing, not least a bumper...to generalise racing across the entire UK! Erhaab - no one has ever said Richard Hughes has never ridden a bad race but we've been through this time and again, it is not in the horse's/owners/trainers best interest to ride a horse out to the finish when the horse has nothing more to give and has no chance of making a place at best, it makes no sense to do so whatsoever. Regarding Furrows, it was blatant schooling in public but no doubt they'll appeal and it will get overturned, the trainers nearly always win, as seen in the case of 'Traditional Bob' at Chepstow not so long ago. It's a little unfortunate that they get picked up on it though, when it goes on by certain big connections on a weekly basis and doesn't get picked up by the stewards. One instance was a horse running at Lingfield the other week which was barely put into the race and the stewards did nothing, whilst another in a later race that was given a similar sort of effort (a far worse result mind) was brought up by those at the course and refused to be given a handicap mark. As for your point NeilM, running a horse when it's unfit and has little chance of winning, but actually physically trying to win the race is a far lesser crime (if a crime at all) than blatantly not trying to win the race at all, regardless of the fitness of said animal.

Nice post Lars. Well said.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

Totally agree with all your points. Never liked Webber as a trainer he cannot be trusted , he and Oliver Sherwood were caught out trying to rip off an owner by bidding against each other , thus inflating Webber's profit. TFR , never understood all the hype around him , over rated in my opinion.

Oliver Sherwood is not trustworthy , this was about 15 years ago.

[NeilM]

And talking of trainers with something of a reputation, Ferdy Murphy has a runner, Balding Banker, 2:20 Market Rasen.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

Some hilarious posts on this page of the thread. Not least RIO2014 using an example from Irish Racing' date=' not least a bumper...to generalise racing across the entire UK! Rio2014 along with NeilM have made some very good posts recently which have been refreshing to read. Erhaab - no one has ever said Richard Hughes has never ridden a bad race but we've been through this time and again, it is not in the horse's/owners/trainers best interest to ride a horse out to the finish when the horse has nothing more to give and has no chance of making a place at best, it makes no sense to do so whatsoever. Shouldn't all horses be ridden to get the best possible position , are you suggesting its OK to not try for an EW position when its beaten ? How do you determine whether a horse has nothing more to give ?Your comments are not punter friendly. Regarding Furrows, it was blatant schooling in public but no doubt they'll appeal and it will get overturned, the trainers nearly always win, as seen in the case of 'Traditional Bob' at Chepstow not so long ago. It's a little unfortunate that they get picked up on it though, when it goes on by certain big connections on a weekly basis and doesn't get picked up by the stewards. One instance was a horse running at Lingfield the other week which was barely put into the race and the stewards did nothing, whilst another in a later race that was given a similar sort of effort (a far worse result mind) was brought up by those at the course and refused to be given a handicap mark. More trainers should be done for non trying and the penalties should be more severe. A gamble could be planned a few years in advance so a 40 day ban is not going to be an inconvience also the money they could potentially win will pay for the fines sveral times over. As for your point NeilM, running a horse when it's unfit and has little chance of winning, but actually physically trying to win the race is a far lesser crime (if a crime at all) than blatantly not trying to win the race at all, regardless of the fitness of said animal. The horses may be physically trying to win whether it can or not but its the connections who actually control whether its trying to win or not which is the point

...

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

And talking of trainers with something of a reputation' date=' Ferdy Murphy has a runner, Balding Banker, 2:20 Market Rasen.[/quote'] Its great to hear from others who share my opinion. http://forum.punterslounge.com/threads/128727-Has-Ferdy-lost-the-plot

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

I quite agree. My issue is that trainers often imply that they've come to a race fully knowing they wouldn't win and have said afterwards that the horse needed to experience race conditions.

I've been saying this for a couple of years on here and everytime we get onto this topic , I'm always shot down by by the regulars. The Rebecca Curtis trained Teaforthree made its seasonal debut in a big handicap and was prominent in the betting and was well beat. In an interview later for a stable tours feature or the Henessey build up she said the horse needs a run or two to get fit and she knew the horse would blow up on its reappearance. Why didn't she tell the betting public before its debut this season ? I think its wrong to run a horse when they expect it it to lose , if I recall it was in the top 4 of the betting of a race with about 20 runners , so a lot of money was bet on it. I'm not suggesting she is bent but its not very punter friendly. I made a similar post when John Gosden said Nathaniel was 80% fit for the Irish Champion Stakes and it was not the main target , the horse was favorite !! I got a bit of stick on that thread.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread http://forum.punterslounge.com/threads/116151-Why-are-horses-not-fit-enough-for-their-targets

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread 1 i do use points...£30 pp.. sorry for that... ERHAAB,, yes there are people who will always belive this game is straighter than a "brickies plum line" And some people have to think that way...so be it But I can tell you I know diffrent, through HUGE profit,,and HUGE loss.. You will always get the people who beleive, Mccoy, Henderson(yes him with the milkshake), Walsh, Gerarety, Nicholls, Dettori, Hughes, I could go on and on and on,,,have never ever intentially stopped a horse.. Well to those people...you only have 19 days left..for the big day, dont forget the milk n biscuits. As a matter of fact I will put one up today on the flat racing thread,,that they are preping...watch closely... And 1 i shall be having a small e/w on..on the Jumps thread...that will be doing its very very best.. both inside information.... 1 to back 1 to leave...n watch GL to everyone today Lets hope there is plenty of goals in the Liverpool game,,my only big bet today,,fingers crossed

[Lars]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread I'm looking forward to this horse that is "not off" that you're putting up Rio2014. I'm calling it that you're going to wait 5 minutes before the off, put up a big drifter and then claim it was being "prepped". Erhaab - Your posts are so ridiculously spread out that it's difficult to make any sense of what you're arguing, but I'll do my best to keep up.

Shouldn't all horses be ridden to get the best possible position , are you suggesting its OK to not try for an EW position when its beaten ? How do you determine whether a horse has nothing more to give ?Your comments are not punter friendly.

I never actually said anything of the sort, learn to read. My post said the following "Horse's/owners/trainers best interest to ride a horse out to the finish when the horse has nothing more to give and has no chance of making a place at best." - Nothing more to give would be up to the jockey to decide, but what would really be the point of giving a horse a tough race when it's out with the washing at the back? Your retort to this would be "well the jockey can just say that, they can ease it up then land a gamble duhh". If a jockey has been unduly easy on a horse, people will notice, stewards *should* notice and the proper enquiries should be made, but if a jockey has put in substantial effort for no return with a certain horse, then they don't deserve to get into any trouble when they miss out on 8th and finish 9th.

More trainers should be done for non trying and the penalties should be more severe. A gamble could be planned a few years in advance so a 40 day ban is not going to be an inconvience also the money they could potentially win will pay for the fines sveral times over.

Finally, something I agree with you on. Stewards recently have been incapable of spotting non-triers and can easily be accused of double standards. The BHA are no better either. Al-Zarooni (I believe) committed a similar offence to Nicky Henderson this summer regarding illegal substances found within a horse and just got a fine, whilst Henderson received a ban. Smaller trainers would have been thrown out of racing, so it just proves that money talks. It's sad but flat racing is largely financed by someone with questionable stances on Women, Homosexuality, Equality of Labour etc... Whilst in the NH Sphere, there's a certain jockey who is always giving horses an easy time of it but is above suspicion. Money talks. Gambles are planned years in advance but now that horse's card has been marked by everyone and anyone, it's going to be difficult for them to land a big punt with it for some time to come, as it will always arouse suspicion.

The horses may be physically trying to win whether it can or not but its the connections who actually control whether its trying to win or not which is the point

Asking a Trainer to get a horse 100% ready for every race is daft and just impossible anyway. Trainers have to leave a bit to work with as they'll just get to the bottom of a horse pretty quickly and he might never be as useful again. As long as a horse isn't ridiculously unfit, the jockey tries to win the race, no one can actually have any real issue with a horse needing the run. If you're backing horses who have been off for a while such as Teaforthree, then you should assume that they will need it unless you can provide evidence to the contrary (whether on form or through inside sources). Complaining about a horse needing the run who has been off for months and her trainer not telling the world about is naive.

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread I hope you watched it LARS,,,That is how to play on non trier... As i said, Jumped well(too well), reined back to 12 lens off the pace,,take the scenic rout, one tap with the whip, no urgings from the jockey, to finish off in 4th beaten 3 lens... By the way the horse was effistorm(see flat racing today), i put it up early enough... See thats how easy it is, nothing happens, its being readied.. But im sure you can work it out.. over 80% of races run in the uk n ireland will have non triers in them...(maybe more) Unless your in the know, tread very very very carefully in this game.

[RIO2014]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Erhaab... I assume that you know what you are talking about, Unfortunately some people beleive that the game cannot be any straighter than it is. It can be alot straighter and should be, however the industry does not show any forward thinking to stop corruption in the game, that is why unless you are in the know, select very very carefully, and as we all know, If you are a winner, ALL BOOKMAKERS will restrict your accounts. eg totesport/betfred, I am unable to put a bet on, and several others severely restricted. Thats not because i was the 2nd coming in choosing winners, not at all, It was due to in most cases, getting the best deal, altho I did have some hefty winners. Today I tried to give 2 examples, of 1 that was not going to win, under any situation(posted hours before the race), And im sorry if you think that was given its best effort today to finish 4th...you are deluded..They will have their gamble when its around 5/1, and you know why...BECAUSE THE LIQUIDITY will be there,,not a few tenners at 10/1.. The 2nd over the jumps was a dead 8...The bookies hate them with a passion... The one i said was trying, was indeed that, leading all the way to be collared at the last, with 20 lens back to the 3rd...at around 6/1, was an e/w to nothing, that nearly paid off. Now if you had 1 bet per day at 6/1, for £100e/w, and you were never out the frame, with a few wins, for a week or two, your account would be restricted to almost zero. As i said if your in the know you have half a chance, if your not tread very carefully in this sport, or doom awaits. GL everyone

[BillyHills]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread Chill out guys, we all have opinions and are entitled to air them. :ok

[Blazing Bailey]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread

The Rebecca Curtis trained Teaforthree made its seasonal debut in a big handicap and was prominent in the betting and was well beat. In an interview later for a stable tours feature or the Henessey build up she said the horse needs a run or two to get fit and she knew the horse would blow up on its reappearance. Why didn't she tell the betting public before its debut this season ? I think its wrong to run a horse when they expect it it to lose , if I recall it was in the top 4 of the betting of a race with about 20 runners , so a lot of money was bet on it.

This was pretty obvious though to anyone that has done their homework. Rebecca Curtis had stated that he was being aimed at the Welsh National and if you look at the horses profile, it does indeed seem to come on for the run so to speak. In fact it was that obvious that Im pretty sure the RP commented on it! They are the ones I dont mind as much, because there are decent clues for people who want to look. Its the ones that have already been mentioned in the thread where the result comes 'out of the blue'.

[cpo]

Re: Daily Racing Chat Thread To be fair regarding Effistorm, I have watched it a couple of times now and it does look pretty blatant that the horse is being held back and hasn't been given the office to go and win the race. It's almost as if the jockey is struggling to hold the horse back coming down the Lingfield straight. She must have got rather worried entering the final furlong (if what you say Rio is true) as the horse was closing very fast with minimum assistance.