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PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

Sir Puntalot

By Sir Puntalot
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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

unlucky fenners. I'm sure it was an awesome experience though Did Burnley Joe get through to Day 2?
MANBAG!!!! how are you mate glad you finally found the forum :welcome when I spoke to fen (about 2am their time) burnley joe was still in and still playing and fen was off out for a well earnt beer. Bearing in mind it kicked off at noon after 14-15 hours of poker I guess they will be blitzed, so we may not hear till later on when they get up.
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Penelopeys

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Hey everyone. Joe texted us 4 am, and he IS through to day 2 :clap :clap :clap :clap In the meantime Katia, Paul and I are sunbathing next to the bellagio pool, watching great shows, eating steaks and cleaning out the black jack tables once again... ...fcukin hell... PR did well last night... :loon ...and so did the girlies ;) Having a blast overhere... see you all in Brum :ok

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morlspin

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Had a call from Joe at 4am vegas, he has around 20k left in chips, but has managed to get through to day 2 His highest stack was around 44k but his aces were busted by 66 Good Luck Joe, and unlucky Andy, but well done!

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Sir Puntalot

Sir Puntalot

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Fenner said average was about 35k to me last night and that BJ had about 26k. :ok Fenner also told me they were on some sort of a reserve list too, so when they got to the table, some had bigger stacks than them. :\ I have to say the organisation of the WSOP is nothing short of a total fcukin shambles, I'm surprised GoalPoker haven't organised it.......

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slapdash

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

Fenner also told me they were on some sort of a reserve list too, so when they got to the table, some had bigger stacks than them. :\
... and some had smaller ... and some were already out. I'm sure most people would prefer to be in from the beginning, just so you don't have to sit around waiting, but I don't think it's at all clear whether it's a disadvantage to be an alternate as far as your chances of winning are concerned. Presumably they were alternates because Absolute got them in at the last minute? I read somewhere that the way they were going to do alternates was that they'd start a whole table of alternates at the same time, so you didn't start off playing against people with larger stacks. Did they not do it that way in the end?
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Sir Puntalot

Sir Puntalot

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Don't think so mate, Fenner will fill you in better tho. :ok Gotta go meet Pene & Katia for brekkie now, adiooooooooos. :nana Me, Pene, Katia & Gaz Blades are going in a $40 + $15 freezeout at the Imperial at 1pm, so let's hope we take it down! :nana

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

... and some had smaller ... and some were already out. I'm sure most people would prefer to be in from the beginning, just so you don't have to sit around waiting, but I don't think it's at all clear whether it's a disadvantage to be an alternate as far as your chances of winning are concerned. Presumably they were alternates because Absolute got them in at the last minute? I read somewhere that the way they were going to do alternates was that they'd start a whole table of alternates at the same time, so you didn't start off playing against people with larger stacks. Did they not do it that way in the end?
Fen and Joe were only registered on the morning of the game so had no seat. Fen ended up against large stacks and the other disadvantage is that people have already settled into the game and got a rhythm going and have information on other players at the table and are you are still to get up and running. Fen said he was getting pushed around the moment he sat down and wasn't given a chance to play any hand. His best hand KK took most of his stack as the large stack just kept calling his bets and ended up with 2 pair. So in his case where he sat it ended up being a disadvantage.
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staffy

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Have to say would be annoying to come into a game when people are settled. However I guess you just get on with it and make the most of what you have. Still would be an unreal feeling to be there.

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GaF

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

... and some had smaller ... and some were already out. I'm sure most people would prefer to be in from the beginning, just so you don't have to sit around waiting, but I don't think it's at all clear whether it's a disadvantage to be an alternate as far as your chances of winning are concerned.
Taking that to it's extreme then, you're saying that there's no disadvantage if you came in with your $10,000 chips say 250 places off the money, when the blinds are $20,000/$40,000 and ante of $2,500 (I'm making the numbers up). Of course they wouldn't last 5 minutes!!! At the stage they actually came in the disadvantage is far less pronounced, but there has to be a disadvantage...... blinds have gone up and instead of starting with an average stack, you are starting with a below average stack......
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guesswest

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Agreed, blatantly a disadvantage, you have less play in your stack due to the higher blinds, just that simple. It's not really about whether you're up against bigger vs smaller stacks, that could go either way in terms of an advantage/disadvantage, it's just how many rounds of play you have in your stack and that's less if you join midway. I'm just totally amazed they're doing this in the biggest poker tournament in the world, it's patently ridiculous. Commisserations to fenners and anyone else that was victim of this kind of organization, whoevers implementing that system seems to have no real understanding of the game.

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Hedonist

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe This sounds almost exactly the same as getting knocked out of a rebuy tournament and rebuying. The only difference is that you are taking the place of someone else who was knocked out. I dislike rebuys and never play them!

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slapdash

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

Taking that to it's extreme then, you're saying that there's no disadvantage if you came in with your $10,000 chips say 250 places off the money, when the blinds are $20,000/$40,000 and ante of $2,500 (I'm making the numbers up). Of course they wouldn't last 5 minutes!!! At the stage they actually came in the disadvantage is far less pronounced, but there has to be a disadvantage...... blinds have gone up and instead of starting with an average stack, you are starting with a below average stack......
You're not starting with a below average stack. You're starting with an average stack. You're comparing with the average of the people who haven't yet been eliminated. I.e., with a group of people who are doing better than average. Your "extreme" example isn't really extreme enough. Suppose you come in at the final table with your $10,000 chips. Would you be at a disadvantage compared to the whole field? OK, maybe that's a bit silly, but even in your example, I actually do think that you might well have higher expected prize money than if you started at the beginning. OK, it wouldn't be much fun, you'll be in desperation mode, you wouldn't be able to play any sensible poker unless you got lucky and doubled up a few times, and most of the time you'd go out within a few hands and wouldn't have a very fulfilling WSOP experience, but how is an average player doing when you're 250 places from the money? ... well, he's already out. You're only probably going out soon. Of course, in practice, it's not that extreme. I think alternates only come in during the first, or maybe second, blind levels? So I don't think the increased blinds should be a major factor. Think of the analogy with a rebuy tournament. Most people think that if you get knocked out near the beginning, you have positive EV from rebuying. If you're an alternate, you are in exactly the same situation with respect to chip count. I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for Fenner and Joe. In their place I'd also much prefer to start at the beginning. But that's mainly because if I were there I wouldn't expect to make the money anyway, and would want to make the most of the experience. If I were a top pro, who had seen it all before, I genuinely think I might prefer to be an alternate. Phil Hellmuth regularly turns up to tournaments late, voluntarily making himself like an alternate with the added disadvantage that he's been paying blinds while he's been away. (OK, this year he got knocked out early, so maybe that's not a good example!) I take the point about the disadvantage of joining a table cold, without having been able to get to know anything about the other players at the table. Though that also applies to a player who is moved to another table, and you do have the somewhat compensating advantage that the other players at the table don't know anything about you, either. I thought the scheme that I'd read that they were going to use (but apparently didn't), where alternates started at tables consisting entirely of other alternates, sounded a good one. But I think it's possible that might actually give too much of an advantage to the alternates. I realize this might sound as though I'm saying "Stop moaning!", but that's not what I mean at all. I just think that from the point of view of maximizing your winnings (but not from the point of view of enjoying the tournament) there are advantages in being an alternate that might well outweigh the disadvantages.
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slapdash

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe By the way, I agree that it doesn't seem right at all that they use this system in the WSOP. Whether it's an advantage or disadvantage to be an alternate, the players should all be starting on a level playing field as far as possible.

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guesswest

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

You're not starting with a below average stack. You're starting with an average stack. You're comparing with the average of the people who haven't yet been eliminated. I.e., with a group of people who are doing better than average. Your "extreme" example isn't really extreme enough. Suppose you come in at the final table with your $10,000 chips. Would you be at a disadvantage compared to the whole field? OK, maybe that's a bit silly, but even in your example, I actually do think that you might well have higher expected prize money than if you started at the beginning. OK, it wouldn't be much fun, you'll be in desperation mode, you wouldn't be able to play any sensible poker unless you got lucky and doubled up a few times, and most of the time you'd go out within a few hands and wouldn't have a very fulfilling WSOP experience, but how is an average player doing when you're 250 places from the money? ... well, he's already out. You're only probably going out soon. Of course, in practice, it's not that extreme. I think alternates only come in during the first, or maybe second, blind levels? So I don't think the increased blinds should be a major factor. Think of the analogy with a rebuy tournament. Most people think that if you get knocked out near the beginning, you have positive EV from rebuying. If you're an alternate, you are in exactly the same situation with respect to chip count. I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for Fenner and Joe. In their place I'd also much prefer to start at the beginning. But that's mainly because if I were there I wouldn't expect to make the money anyway, and would want to make the most of the experience. If I were a top pro, who had seen it all before, I genuinely think I might prefer to be an alternate. Phil Hellmuth regularly turns up to tournaments late, voluntarily making himself like an alternate with the added disadvantage that he's been paying blinds while he's been away. (OK, this year he got knocked out early, so maybe that's not a good example!) I take the point about the disadvantage of joining a table cold, without having been able to get to know anything about the other players at the table. Though that also applies to a player who is moved to another table, and you do have the somewhat compensating advantage that the other players at the table don't know anything about you, either. I thought the scheme that I'd read that they were going to use (but apparently didn't), where alternates started at tables consisting entirely of other alternates, sounded a good one. But I think it's possible that might actually give too much of an advantage to the alternates. I realize this might sound as though I'm saying "Stop moaning!", but that's not what I mean at all. I just think that from the point of view of maximizing your winnings (but not from the point of view of enjoying the tournament) there are advantages in being an alternate that might well outweigh the disadvantages.
The problem with that is you're assuming 0EV. If you're a winning player there is a very clear advantage to starting earlier in so far as you have many more trials over which you can realise your positive expectation because you have more chips in relation to the blinds. There's enough variance in tournament play as things are without artificially spiking it. It's the same reason that most pros seem to prefer deep stack tournaments. And you DO have less positive expectation if you bust and rebuy in a rebuy tournament. The decision to rebuy is just a decision as to whether you believe you still have positive expectation at all. That expectation is declining all the time, it's why many players will rebuy up to a few levels in but decline thereafter, because their expectation is declining constantly and eventually tips to negative, exactly where it tips depends on the quality of their game. It may be that player x doesn't have positive expectation in the first place, but pretty much everyone is playing under the belief that they do or they wouldn't be entering in the first place. A tournament structure should hand out equal potential variance to everyone. Entering someone midway is effectively handing out the benefit or variance equalising deep-stack play to their opponent but denying them the same. And the idea of joining a table cold is just another (but important) disadvantage on top of that.
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slapdash

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe

The problem with that is you're assuming 0EV. If you're a winning player there is a very clear advantage to starting earlier in so far as you have many more trials over which you can realise your positive expectation because you have more chips in relation to the blinds. There's enough variance in tournament play as things are without artificially spiking it. It's the same reason that most pros seem to prefer deep stack tournaments. And you DO have less positive expectation if you bust and rebuy in a rebuy tournament. The decision to rebuy is just a decision as to whether you believe you still have positive expectation at all. That expectation is declining all the time, it's why many players will rebuy up to a few levels in but decline thereafter, because their expectation is declining constantly and eventually tips to negative, exactly where it tips depends on the quality of their game. It may be that player x doesn't have positive expectation in the first place, but pretty much everyone is playing under the belief that they do or they wouldn't be entering in the first place. A tournament structure should hand out equal potential variance to everyone. Entering someone midway is effectively handing out the benefit or variance equalising deep-stack play to their opponent but denying them the same. And the idea of joining a table cold is just another (but important) disadvantage on top of that.
I agree with most of that, and I did say (in my P.S.) that I didn't approve of having alternates at all. I don't think there's any way to do it giving everybody equal EV and equal variance. What I'd disagree with is: OK. Most players think they have positive expectation (although in the WSOP main event, this may be less true). Poker players are an arrogant lot. :tongue2 But a lot of of them are wrong (not any of the PL players, of course!). Probably more than half of them in the main event. If some of them have to start a few hours into the tournament, and if you have to decide the "fair" number of chips to give them, then I think it would be unfair to give them more than the number of chips everybody else started with. You certainly couldn't say "Oh, you're a good player, you'd have found plenty of opportunities to build your stack, we'll give you an extra $5,000." Also, except in a winner-takes-all tournament, I think that it's probably usually true that your expectation is greater if you're introduced into the tournament at a later stage with the same number of chips that everybody else started with. In the extreme case that you're introduced into the tournament at the final table, when you're guaranteed a decent payday, this is obviously true, and I can't see any reason to think that your expectation doesn't gradually increase as the time you're introduced gets later. Your chance of winning may not increase, but your chance of getting in the money probably does. If you're much better than average, and would expect to walk into the money if you started at the beginning, that might be an exception, but the number of big names who have gone out on day one shows there are not many people in that class.
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Burnley Joe

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Re: PL in Vegas - PR, Pene, Katia, Mo, Ronay, Fenner, Burnley Joe Hi Guys, finished day one on 13,000 chips, gutted lost AA twice in the last two hours against 66 and 33. Long session mind you I was knackered by the end. Play next on Wednesday, although there are 1200 of 1600 and play down to 700, just checked and i`m about 1300th, so plenty of time to double through a couple of times. Just going pout on the lash in a minute as it is nearly 17.00pm and missed last nights drinking. Cheers for the support Joe

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