JackJarvis Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Racings' Dirtiest Secrets... Should make for interesting viewing. No doubt it will insist of people who know feck all about racing though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Wish I could watch this Post up what they said in here after please?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm It will be the usual stuff we already know. It will annoyling give outsiders the wrong idea about the sport. Betting exchanges are the best thing to happen to racing, and they increase punters' chances of winning. I worry about the damage this show can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm The show is 4 years too late. That was then, this is now. It's harder to get away with the "Legal Set types of coups" It's straighter NOW - due to betfair's help. The Beeb are laughably out of date with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonbank Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm "Ooh...an envelope...and we can't say that there was anything dodgy about it.....but, an envelope ffs!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm A chap could get a nasty paper cut off an envelope I'll have you know. My fav quote so far: "Who is Gavin Faulkener?" :rollin Good point. As usual Kenyon goes after Mr Big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm that bruce bennett guy seemed like a complete retard, ffs what an idiot who kicks a reporter on camera - might as well be admitting you are guilty just searched for his company propak, can anyone do a keiran fallon voice, 01438-728885 - ring up and pretend to be him if u are bored tomorrow. Or ring up as kenyon and see how quick the receptionist hangs up lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackJarvis Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm I agree, it was definetly 3 or 4 years behind. People who know about racing will know that but it portrays the sport as horrible to the people who don't follow it. Had to have a laugh when that Rodgers guy threw the reporter out the pub LOL.... He definetly seems like a crook.... but lets be honest, if you thought you could get away with it to make a quick 20 grand or so.... who wouldn't do it???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius Marcellus Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm STOP PRESS Jockeys in 27 race-fix scandal. And 6 of them won :lol :lol:lol :lol :lol :lol How the fcuk was that going to go down in a court of law? Fallon getting off was a 1.01 shot, and I'd have piled in if Betfair were betting on it. Inside info... :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aykay1 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Fallon actually made that guy a loss so how he was supposed to be deliberately losing i'll never know.....I kept thinking "i've heard this all before" when I was watching it. Highlight for me was Barnett booting that reporter in the legs :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Well Fallon certainly came out of that one well, but does it mean that people are willing to say that Ballinger Ridge was a mis judgement. The stats are quite clear that the case was never going to stand up in court, and I had to laugh that they said after every race they showed: "There is no evidence to say the jock did anything to throw the race" :loon WTF was the point in showing it then. I also feel they missed out a lot of so called vital information about Fallon meeting Rogers etc and I think it shows that Fallon has been accused of a lot more than he actually did by the media. Cant believe that Bennett did that on live TV - what an idiot. :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Intensity Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Summary here for The Rat http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7531388.stm :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Summary here for The Rat http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7531388.stm :ok Cheers Mr I :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm The stats are quite clear that the case was never going to stand up in court, and I had to laugh that they said after every race they showed: "There is no evidence to say the jock did anything to throw the race" :loon WTF was the point in showing it then. They 'had' to say that of course because the jocks have been found 'not guilty' of race fixing in Court. The jocks were only accused of 'race fixing', they weren't accused in court of passing on insider info, which as far as I'm aware, isn't a criminal offence in horse racing like it is in the City. So the gist of this programme was that the jocks weren't 'fixing' races, they were just telling their contacts that horse A wasn't really fit enough to win that day or had had a minor injury setback etc, etc........and on the basis of that insider info the contacts laid the horse. That isn't a criminal offence, as far as I know, but it is a 'racing offence' under the jurisdiction of the BHA I don't think they provided enough evidence for 'corruption' ie that the jockeys were being paid to supply such information, although I did think the evidence was fairly strong that the jocks were passing on info.......to people they perceived to be their friends. I don't know how you could stop that in reality.........jock goes out for dinner with friends, the talk turns to tomorrow's racing........it seems pretty natural that the jock might say, 'oh, I'm on one of Mr Hannon's but i don't think it's fit enough to win'......... Sounds like that was what fallon was doing and most of the time he was right, but he still won on some of them ! Unfortunately I did doze off for 20 minutes mid-programme and missed most of the bit about Bennett, .........was there any convincing evidence of payments being made to jocks ? The evidence I saw was all circumstantial and no doubt the general public will say 'smoke, fire' but the racing authorites would need proper evidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Thing is, even if there was proven evidence and these parties were found guilty the show would still be irrelevant. Racing has cleaned it's act up a little since then - more steps have been brought in, thanks to exchanges. The game is straighter than it was 5 years ago because of exchanges not despite them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Apart from the little piece about Mr. Bennet it was the same old same old. If this was the best he could do we have not got much to worry about. With all the racing out there in the last 5 or so years, he comes up with two names. Of which one was already known. Most of the programme was taken up by a case already found NOT GUILTY in a court of law. Mr. Bennett did lash out but we do not know what provocation he was under. How much footage did they have of Kenyon "confronting" just to to get a few "bad" shots? If he were to doorstep me for days, may be weeks on end, making himself a bloody nuisance, I'd probably kick him in the nuts too. What troubles me is the perception of racing by the general public. They were very careful of saying there is no this that and tother proof, blah blah blah. But the incinuation was there. As already said smoke and fire etc. Strange how this comes after the BBC lose the rights to Goodwood. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Billy, going to disagree with you here a little, Firstly the show was not irrelevant, many of us had heard things about the case but never saw any footage, now we have. This show was meant to be a follow up to the show 6 years ago to show how the exchanges have influenced and increased the danger of corruption in the sport, we cant argue with that one, it does, simple as. The programme showed how inept both the Police and the BHA were in not following up some of the evidence, the replies from Fergal Lynch were incriminating to me, they were never mentioned elswhere and the BHA said they couldnt get hold of the tapes, that was rellevent in my opinion too. The guy Bennett had not been mentioned before and the BHA said they were still investigating his case, which means it not 4 years too late, why the Police didnt look into him is anyones guess. In my opinion the reason they made and showed this programme was because there WAS enough evidence at hand but all parties bungled it so badly, including that clown from Australia who defended all of the jockeys rides. The BBC knew they had enough and wanted to show it, it was very interesting how Betfair was very accommodating to the programme dont you think, I get the feeling they know it was very serious and cant believe they got away with it so played their part in the programme to show they did help to try and sort it. Its ok trying to defend a sport we love and try to believe its clean, how many times in the last month have you complained about Jockey's rides for instance? How many times have you said horses have drifted alarmingly before the off? I know for people who try to make a living out of betting it must be hard to think all the studying you do maybe sometimes not enough. Call the show what you like and i'm sure the racing press may agree with you tomorrow but i'm glad these programmes are made and dont think they are irrelevant, it may just stop a jockey throwing a race on a horse you have backed in the next week or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm When I complain about a jockey's ride, I'm usually talking about imcompetence, not anything underhand. I cannot stress this enough. I have moaned about things drifting - probably 3/4 times. I have many, many bets so we're talking about a minute %. I have my theories as to why these drift and lose but I'm willing to absorb those instances in order for the sport to remain as it is NOW. The cases in point were few and fair between THEN, now there are a real rarity thanks to betfair's co-operation. This show will not stop further jockey's getting involved - the steps betfair take when they smell a rat is what frightens jocks. The very thing (betfair) the show slams is the thing that is doing it's best to improve the state of the game. Did the spead firms ever 'get busy' when certain accounts were selling losers all day long? I don't think I back many non-tryers, but that's not through luck, that is through an understanding of the sport and its protaganists. If I backed more Cumani and Dunlop FTO 2yos or Mick Channon shorties then it may be different for example. When I do, although it's annoying, and after a few minutes screaming I take it on the chin and remember it's a rarity. The game is perfect (for me). :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm One more point, punters have NEVER had it so good. More people are making a living at the game than EVER before. Therefore the game must be straight enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm One more point, punters have NEVER had it so good. More people are making a living at the game than EVER before. Therefore the game must be straight enough? I agree Punters can back horses to lose nowdays;) Billy, I wasnt asking you defend yourself, I was just defending the programme. We can disagree, i dont think for one minute every race is twisted or else I wouldnt follow it like i do, I just think its good to have these findings out in the public domain, just one bent Jockey is too many. The reason i mentioned the drifters is that you said yourself its about time these betting patterns were looked in too, well after seeing the Betfair guys on the show i'm more than happy that they are being pro-active, the only problem is its after the event! Be lucky:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm I agree Punters can back horses to lose nowdays;) Billy, I wasnt asking you defend yourself, I was just defending the programme. We can disagree, i dont think for one minute every race is twisted or else I wouldnt follow it like i do, I just think its good to have these findings out in the public domain, just one bent Jockey is too many. The reason i mentioned the drifters is that you said yourself its about time these betting patterns were looked in too, well after seeing the Betfair guys on the show i'm more than happy that they are being pro-active, the only problem is its after the event! Be lucky:ok Sure I know - hope it didn't come accross wrong, was just adding fuel to the fire. I can talk for hours about this. :lol I did say that earlier, because I KNOW of instances where betfair had been pro-active unnecessarily, well not unnecessarily but when there wasn't anything untoward - I just hope they also have done so with the horses I've flagged up. Everyone (trainer/owner/jockey) needs to be treated the same for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Yes, the criminals exchanged an envelope and we don't know what was inside but other than wads of cash what else is it likely to be? A love letter? Premier League sticker swopsies? I was not into betting before the advent of the exchanges but to those of you that have been betting for much longer, do you think there was as much corruption back then? How could people like Bennett/Rogers have profitted back then? They could have given jockeys a bung to throw a race but they couldn't have been able to cream in from people on the exchanges (by laying) could they? As long as lay betting exists you are always going to be open to this type of thing aren't you?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Think Billy Hills, Fintron etc. had better be a little more careful of what they say. O.k. it did not look good for Mr. Lynch, but this was a programme that only put one view, that of the prosecution. It was not a fair analysis surely. Fact is they were found NOT GUILTY, or rather NO CASE TO ANSWER, and that should be enough to satisfy anyone. Trial by TV is no trial at all. Ginge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Think Billy Hills, Fintron etc. had better be a little more careful of what they say. O.k. it did not look good for Mr. Lynch, but this was a programme that only put one view, that of the prosecution. It was not a fair analysis surely. Fact is they were found NOT GUILTY, or rather NO CASE TO ANSWER, and that should be enough to satisfy anyone. Trial by TV is no trial at all. Ginge What they were found 'not guilty' of was race-fixing. The programme went out of it's way to make it absolutely clear that they were NOT accusing the jockeys and others of 'race-fixing'. They were accusing them of something they HADN'T stood trial for.........ie, passing insider information to people who used it to lay horses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Rather than banning the exchanges completely, couldn't the BHA just place limits on the amount of money that can be laid by one particular individual on one particular horse (maybe they already do this? I don't know, I'm not a layer). Yes, the crooks would open up bogus accounts, but if laying amounts were capped it may act as a deterrent to people. If a crook had to slip a jockey a bung of, say, £500 but he knew he wouldn't be able to lay that horse to win much more than couple of hundred quid on Betfair the chances are he wouldn't do it. The ROI (his bung) would be not worth the risk of getting caught. If the amount layers could win was reduced then the amount of money being offered as bungs to the jockeys would reduce, and the chances are jockeys wouldn't even have their heads turned. Is it really worth risking your career for a hundred quid or so? Maybe I'm talking a load of crap, I don't know? Please enlighten me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomo14 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm I was very interested in what the programme had to say yes its years to late but i got a great insight to what betfair are doing or being seen to be done to stop such corruption their are scoundrels in every sport its unavoidable The Bennet guy he is loaded so he does not need to get involved in such things but he chooses to & his companies might just find a downturn so he will lose out some how as regards the programme so thats a good thing the real plus is that the BHA is educating the future jockeys about whats Right & whats wrong so their will be no more excuses should this problems arise again in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Rather than banning the exchanges completely, couldn't the BHA just place limits on the amount of money that can be laid by one particular individual on one particular horse (maybe they already do this? I don't know, I'm not a layer). Yes, the crooks would open up bogus accounts, but if laying amounts were capped it may act as a deterrent to people. If a crook had to slip a jockey a bung of, say, £500 but he knew he wouldn't be able to lay that horse to win much more than couple of hundred quid on Betfair the chances are he wouldn't do it. The ROI (his bung) would be not worth the risk of getting caught. If the amount layers could win was reduced then the amount of money being offered as bungs to the jockeys would reduce, and the chances are jockeys wouldn't even have their heads turned. Is it really worth risking your career for a hundred quid or so? Maybe I'm talking a load of crap, I don't know? Please enlighten me! Fin betfair are the reason why the game is straighter now - the witch hunt of them is totally unwarranted. Everyone when they open a betfair account has a limit of 10k per race what they can stake. This can get lifted if you speak to them and they are happy with certain information given etc. It then goes to 50k. It can obviously go higher. I have to say, I hate the idea. How can you dictate how much people can stake? And a few hundred? Horse racing would collapse. Many punters' lives would be turned on it's head, just becuase of a 0.01% of races. That makes no sense. There are hundreds of thousands of straight big players in this country, besides I'm sure betfair would be over the moon with then now only getting a max % of just a few quid per race per punter. ;) Like I've said these instances were rare a few years ago - even rarer now. Those involved need to be brought to justice but to make all other punters suffer (with reduced stakes) isn't the way forward. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rew Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Billy, I thought betfair came out of last nights programme in a good light, they showed how much effort and co-operation they are giving to the racing authorites, not something many major bookmakers can say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Fin betfair are the reason why the game is straighter now - the witch hunt of them is totally unwarranted. How though Billy, sorry, I don't understand. They are open to abuse from people who know a horse will lose (because of the inside info they have paid for). If you take away lay betting (not that I am suggesting it) then wouldn't you take away this problem? How else could these crooks use their inside info for financial gain without the option of betting on an exchange?? I have to say, I hate the idea. How can you dictate how much people can stake? And a few hundred? Horse racing would collapse. I was just plucking numbers out of the air in my post to try make a point - that if these crooks didn't make as much on the exchanges that the incentive wouldn't be there to offer bungs in the first place. Perhaps it was a daft argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: Panorama: BBC1 9pm Think Billy Hills, Fintron etc. had better be a little more careful of what they say. O.k. it did not look good for Mr. Lynch, but this was a programme that only put one view, that of the prosecution. It was not a fair analysis surely. Fact is they were found NOT GUILTY, or rather NO CASE TO ANSWER, and that should be enough to satisfy anyone. Trial by TV is no trial at all. Ginge As you acting as the defence lawyer, why didnt any of them talk to the BBC and put their case forward, they were all given every opportunity. As for your last paragraph, I refer you to Trotters very good answer in a previous post. Nowdays with every single race shown live, all rides are scrutinized, just look around this forum (including your thread) and on Betfair, if thats not trial by TV I dont know what is. End of the day we all have our own opinions and i'm entitled to mine sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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