NAPS COMPETITION - Rules Amendment

[MCLARKE]

Following recent discussions in Racing Chat I have decided to make some amendments to the rules. This affects selections made on International races.

The new rules will be :-

 

• International races can be selected. Early prices can be taken. If the selection wins evidence must be provided in the form of a screen shot showing the selection and the price taken.
• Selections must run no later than the time of the last race in UK or Ireland.

These supersede any previous rules relating to international racing.

Unless there are any objections these new rules will apply from the 1st of September.

[Zilzalian]

3 hours ago, MCLARKE said:

Following recent discussions in Racing Chat I have decided to make some amendments to the rules. This affects selections made on International races.

The new rules will be :-

 

• International races can be selected. Early prices can be taken. If the selection wins evidence must be provided in the form of a screen shot showing the selection and the price taken.
• Selections must run no later than the time of the last race in UK or Ireland.

These supersede any previous rules relating to international racing.

Unless there are any objections these new rules will apply from the 1st of September.

That is all i asked for, feedback and consideration of a problem I had encountered and a possible review of the rules. Thank you. If anyone objects with a reasonable argument of why they object then i will accept no change.

[Xcout]

- Objections will be minimal or non-existant if together with the amendments the reasoning for the change is included. This would provide transparency and allow people to understand where those amendments come from. Because frankly only stating recent discussions could left many people wondering what those were about.

Objection to:

3 hours ago, MCLARKE said:

• Selections must run no later than the time of the last race in UK or Ireland.

Current rule states:

 As of May 1st 2020, bets will count for the day the meeting started, regardless of the race time but all selections must be posted on the forum on the actual day of the competition. (this satisfies the 1 bet per day rule)

That change came about because of the lack of races due to the pandemic to be able to satisfy 1 bet per day rule.

Now the spirit of the rule is one bet per day (understood day as that of UK), therefore if the race is held in the day it should count.

The audience is worldwide.

Then, why put the limit to the last race in the UK or Ireland?  Why is the reasoning behind this?

 

P.D.  Do any admin know if the topic of NAP rules has history enable to be able to see how the rules have evolve?

[Zilzalian]

3 hours ago, Xcout said:

- Objections will be minimal or non-existant if together with the amendments the reasoning for the change is included. This would provide transparency and allow people to understand where those amendments come from. Because frankly only stating recent discussions could left many people wondering what those were about.

Objection to:

Current rule states:

 As of May 1st 2020, bets will count for the day the meeting started, regardless of the race time but all selections must be posted on the forum on the actual day of the competition. (this satisfies the 1 bet per day rule)

That change came about because of the lack of races due to the pandemic to be able to satisfy 1 bet per day rule.

Now the spirit of the rule is one bet per day (understood day as that of UK), therefore if the race is held in the day it should count.

The audience is worldwide.

Then, why put the limit to the last race in the UK or Ireland?  Why is the reasoning behind this?

 

P.D.  Do any admin know if the topic of NAP rules has history enable to be able to see how the rules have evolve?

Although this part is nothing to do with me or my request. 2+years ago pre pandemic  i wanted to nap Withhold in the caulfield cup or something like that and couldn't because of the rules. However as i understand it this change is about publishing the table daily which can't be done if one of the naps is say for a 10:30pm or the extreme of say 11:58 in the USA or elswhere simply because of the time limitations. In my opinion and it is only an opinion, if you run a daily comp with 100+ (usualy) participents then those participents would/should expect to see how they have gotten on that day. Again in my opinion it is not unreasonable given the amount of racing here and in europe to request naps be in a reasonable timeframe especially as we have evening meetings in summer and floodlit racing in winter.

[PercyP]

Rules change should simplify the administrators job. It is already difficult enough to check the results of 100+ UK & Irish and occasionally French bets without having to check international results. In my opinion there are more than enough races to pick one horse. 

Your rule change may lead to further complications e.g. when must the early price screen shot need to be received? Will this delay the Naps table? Part of the fun is seeing if you have moved up the table when lucky enough to pick a winner,

Fortunately, I imagine very few people will take advantage of this rule, so if you can clarify the screenshot timing then rule change is ok with me.

 

 

[harry_rag]

Presumably the early price can only be taken from the currently specified bookmakers allowed for early prices generally?

Why not require the screenshot to be provided when posting the selection as opposed to on an “if it wins” basis? Otherwise you might find yourself updating the table with the evidence yet to come.

 

[Zilzalian]

1 hour ago, harry_rag said:

Presumably the early price can only be taken from the currently specified bookmakers allowed for early prices generally?

Why not require the screenshot to be provided when posting the selection as opposed to on an “if it wins” basis? Otherwise you might find yourself updating the table with the evidence yet to come.

 

Its a reasonable point, as far as i can see this rule change by enlarge applies to me as i asked for it, so i am happy to do so. Maybe it is only necessary for the screenshot (within the correct time scale ie before the last race in the UK) if the nap wins. it arose when i got just 11/4 for a 9/1 shot and nothing for a 28/1 shot this month. (which would have put me in 2nd spot in the table and presumably a top 25 finish at least at the month end instead of the 90th ish place i was and stayed) the problem has only occured about 5 times in the 3 years i have been on here the previous occasions of which i just accepted the rule and said nothing.
@PercyP @harry_rag

Edited August 22, 2022 by Zilzalian

[MCLARKE]

11 hours ago, Xcout said:

Current rule states:

 As of May 1st 2020, bets will count for the day the meeting started, regardless of the race time but all selections must be posted on the forum on the actual day of the competition. (this satisfies the 1 bet per day rule)

That change came about because of the lack of races due to the pandemic to be able to satisfy 1 bet per day rule.

Now the spirit of the rule is one bet per day (understood day as that of UK), therefore if the race is held in the day it should count.

The audience is worldwide.

Then, why put the limit to the last race in the UK or Ireland?  Why is the reasoning behind this?

 

P.D.  Do any admin know if the topic of NAP rules has history enable to be able to see how the rules have evolve?

The new rule is to ensure that the naps table can be updated in a timely manner.

The last race of the day in the UK / Ireland is no later than 9pm so this normally enables me to update the table by 11pm.

If I had to wait until midnight then realistically the table wouldn't be updated until the following day (I need to sleep at some stage !).

[MCLARKE]

6 hours ago, harry_rag said:

Presumably the early price can only be taken from the currently specified bookmakers allowed for early prices generally?

Why not require the screenshot to be provided when posting the selection as opposed to on an “if it wins” basis? Otherwise you might find yourself updating the table with the evidence yet to come.

Yes the price has to be taken from one of the specified bookmakers.

To make the admin easier I will assume the horse has lost unless proof is shown that the horse has won. I would imagine that this proof would be provided before I update the table.

[MCLARKE]

6 hours ago, PercyP said:

Your rule change may lead to further complications e.g. when must the early price screen shot need to be received? 

The early price screen shot must include the time when the bet was place. I will include this in the rule.

[LeMale]

There have been some valid questions and valid points made already by my colleges above and i am a little confused on some things. 

Firstly MClarke, i thought, (though i could be wrong, memory isn't what it used to be) said somewhere through the Zilzalian Problem thread, that a possible change to the rules could happen if everyone agreed and that it would be discussed in the Naps thread. I waited for this to appear to see other peoples views, but alas, it did not appear. If this is that, then i apologise, but your heading would appear to be saying that you ARE changing the rules and it's happening from the 1st September and although you mention at the end about objections, i would have thought that you should have started with this, if in fact, it is not yet a done deal. (My personal understanding was that there would be a vote) 

Ok, the "Zilzilian Problem". I love the banter on here, lots of us punters all with different views and some like to express it and defend it, while others just get entertained reading it! I think i've only seen a couple that have maybe gone a bit too far, but normally, all good fun and banter. The argument here, imo and reading between the lines, was Zilzalian was asking for the rules to be looked at and possibly amended and some thought he was throwing his dummy out the pram not getting the points in the Nap comp. I am sure Zilzalian was peeved-off but i never read that he wanted it changed so he could have his picks and prices re-instated. The reading between the lines bit comes from the "likes" for his posts and "likes" for the comments under his posts from other people, of which there were a lot. Now i could be wrong, but imo that meant most (myself included) were disagreeing with the "Problem" but it might have just been some were not happy at the way it was worded and got the wrong end of the stick and i don't think he helped himself when he basically called us idiots and told us to read it again and put ourselves in his shoes. Well i did that the first time because i'm not an idiot, i just follow the rules because i've read them and i don't agree or understand why some are in place, but i still follow them. (looks like i'm having a pop at you here mate, sorry not meant to be, but can't be bothered to re-word, maybe it was the same for you) I still see some of us using bookies that are not used on PL and some that say "with most" another Problem waiting to happen. It's a shame this point wasn't raised before the 28-1 winner or even before the other winner.....why didn't you? Also want to make it clear i am NOT speaking on everyones behalf just in case anyone thought that, with my "reading between the lines" theory and no offence was intended to Zilzilian, who i don't always agree with, but do most of the time and always read what he has to write especially when him and The Equalizer are going at it, i love it. 

I've waffled on a bit here but, my main problem comes with this screenshot. Surprised you didn't say that it should be posted when putting the nap on in the first place as mentioned above and PercyP about that delaying the evening table point. Also, there is No Time on these that i can see and surely that's a problem. Many a time when putting up my Nap after putting on my bets as i go and deciding what to put up (can take hours, a bit like this message) i find i've lost the price of my bet and have to put it up at lesser odds, but now are you saying i can just screenshot my bet from earlier and use that? (not that i know how to do that, but you would have to allow it because you are for the overseas races) Most importantly is the extra work and hassle it will cause you, which will get worse if more people start doing it. I don't know where you confirm everyones odds (oddschecker?) but if it's on there, then fair enough, but i'm assuming some are not and that's where we are. If MClarke says he doesn't want the extra work then that's it, no rule change. If however he says he doesn't mind (which is what it looks like) then imo there should be a vote (not that my opinion counts for anything, it's not my site!) and what ever the outcome i will follow. I will also say that i have brought up these points because i have the time and i don't mind if people think i'm just talking out my back-side, i'm speaking on behalf of people who haven't the time and/or are a bit shy to say something. Anyway, hope it all gets resolved soon, hope i have not offended any one and if i have i'm sorry it wasn't my intention to do so. 

[LeMale]

I started writing that at about 12:00hrs!! You have already started to answer some points i now see. 

[LeMale]

57 minutes ago, MCLARKE said:

The early price screen shot must include the time when the bet was place. I will include this in the rule.

Am i actually an idiot! I can't see a date or time on any of my bets. Maybe i am not understanding what a screenshot is. I am ooooold!!!

[MCLARKE]

No offence taken !

To be honest I'm trying to make life a bit easier for myself, international races are quite difficult to check.

It would be easy for me to just say that they are not eligible but I am aware there are a small number of players that wish to select international races.

With regard to the timing of the screen shot I agree that it should be within a reasonable time of the posting on here.

I

[Xcout]

1 hour ago, MCLARKE said:

The new rule is to ensure that the naps table can be updated in a timely manner.

The last race of the day in the UK / Ireland is no later than 9pm so this normally enables me to update the table by 11pm.

If I had to wait until midnight then realistically the table wouldn't be updated until the following day (I need to sleep at some stage !).

I thought that the admin work was the case but I did not want to assume anything. 

I understand the reasoning, still I do not find anything wrong with having the table updated until the following day, people still go to see their movement on the table.

 

[MCLARKE]

13 minutes ago, LeMale said:

Am i actually an idiot! I can't see a date or time on any of my bets. Maybe i am not understanding what a screenshot is. I am ooooold!!!

To be honest I've just had to ask my daughter to help me with the screenshot I've put on here.

To clarify, it is only for international races that a screenshot is necessary.

[MCLARKE]

3 minutes ago, Xcout said:

I understand the reasoning, still I do not find anything wrong with having the table updated until the following day, people still go to see their movement on the table.

I would imagine that most people would prefer the table to be updated on the day rather than the following afternoon / evening.

Also, to check prices against oddscheckers it needs to be done on the day, I think the data is no longer available the following day (to my knowledge).

[Zilzalian]

 for those late to the party. Below is all i asked for nowhere does it demand anything. But for some reason that i can't fathom the very thought i asked became a problem.

It has been said elsewhere that i got annoyed and stamped my feet, the only point at which i felt angry and reacted was when someone took it upon themselves to write this line and i quote.
"Please desist in flouting the rules; it is not fair on all members that follow them"

 

PROBLEM

This post is in no way being critical of anyone least of all @MCLARKE. I have got a beef and would like some feedback. The naps table with its current rules in my opinion is not a level playing field. Here is my beef... I have two winning naps this month the first Botanik Bet365 BOG won for me at 9/1, it returned on the naps table at 11/4 a significant deduction you will all agree, the reason was because it was a French race rule- sp only, the second winner Techno Music bet365 BOG won at 28/1 returned on the naps table at 10/1 a significant reduction once again, the reason, it was a race in Germany rule-sp only. I contend that this is unfair and can see no reason for this/these rule/s and ask that it/they be scrapped maybe with a proviso that if asked, proof that the price claimed must be produced because I recognise that MCLARK has a difficult enough job as it is. The competition must be fair to all and those submitting naps on European races should not be penalised. I also realise that there is a rule that says Cards must be available in either the racing post and or Attheraces why? whats wrong with Bet365 or any other bog site PP Betvictor Betfred etc, the racing post has selected cards from all over the world as does ATR. oddly enough Hoppergarten Germany was on neither but unbelievably obscure cards were listed namely, seoul south korea and wadonga australia. but germany Hoppergarten wasnt.

[Xcout]

9 minutes ago, MCLARKE said:

I would imagine that most people would prefer the table to be updated on the day rather than the following afternoon / evening.

Also, to check prices against oddscheckers it needs to be done on the day, I think the data is no longer available the following day (to my knowledge).

Better to not assume what people prefer, as @LeMale mention, maybe a vote?

Data is available later...an example:

But please do not get me wrong, I am all for simplifyng the administration job, as clearly said by @PercyP.

Again my issue was not knowing the reasons behind the amendments.

[Xcout]

19 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

 for those late to the party. Below is all i asked for nowhere does it demand anything. But for some reason that i can't fathom the very thought i asked became a problem.

It has been said elsewhere that i got annoyed and stamped my feet, the only point at which i felt angry and reacted was when someone took it upon themselves to write this line and i quote.
"Please desist in flouting the rules; it is not fair on all members that follow them"

 

PROBLEM

This post is in no way being critical of anyone least of all @MCLARKE. I have got a beef and would like some feedback. The naps table with its current rules in my opinion is not a level playing field. Here is my beef... I have two winning naps this month the first Botanik Bet365 BOG won for me at 9/1, it returned on the naps table at 11/4 a significant deduction you will all agree, the reason was because it was a French race rule- sp only, the second winner Techno Music bet365 BOG won at 28/1 returned on the naps table at 10/1 a significant reduction once again, the reason, it was a race in Germany rule-sp only. I contend that this is unfair and can see no reason for this/these rule/s and ask that it/they be scrapped maybe with a proviso that if asked, proof that the price claimed must be produced because I recognise that MCLARK has a difficult enough job as it is. The competition must be fair to all and those submitting naps on European races should not be penalised. I also realise that there is a rule that says Cards must be available in either the racing post and or Attheraces why? whats wrong with Bet365 or any other bog site PP Betvictor Betfred etc, the racing post has selected cards from all over the world as does ATR. oddly enough Hoppergarten Germany was on neither but unbelievably obscure cards were listed namely, seoul south korea and wadonga australia. but germany Hoppergarten wasnt.

As Richard Nixon said "Trust, but verify".

The provided proof has to be check with a third-party, to discard tampering, and for ease of this is that  SP is used, as it can be check on third-party websites (like racing post and attheraces). 

[Zilzalian]

2 hours ago, MCLARKE said:

The early price screen shot must include the time when the bet was place. I will include this in the rule.

The screenshot that i posted from my bet365 account as an example. clearly showed that i had obtained the price of 28/1 so is the time relevant? and i did inform you when you asked me that it had actually returned at sp of 10/1. What i didn't realise at that moment in time was that even the 10/1 was disqualified simply because it hadnt appeared ATR website or the RP. which i thought was ridiculous because some obscure meetings such as a meeting in South Korea was listed but a grade1 track in Germany wasnt. Like i have said elswhere this problem has only occured about 5 times in 3 years, it was unfortunite that i copped it twice in one month 3 times if you consider the 10/1 disqualification also.

[Zilzalian]

20 minutes ago, Xcout said:

Better to not assume what people prefer, as @LeMale mention, maybe a vote?

Data is available later...an example:

But please do not get me wrong, I am all for simplifyng the administration job, as clearly said by @PercyP.

Again my issue was not knowing the reasons behind the amendments.

Can i point out that your example does not show the BOG? The main part of the problem is the BOG. secondary is the disqualification because the meeting didnt appear on RP or ATR.

[Xcout]

3 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

Can i point out that your example does not show the BOG? The main part of the problem is the BOG. secondary is the disqualification because the meeting didnt appear on RP or ATR.

Precisely as you can't see the BOG that the SP is used.

[LeMale]

15 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

 for those late to the party. Below is all i asked for nowhere does it demand anything. But for some reason that i can't fathom the very thought i asked became a problem.

It has been said elsewhere that i got annoyed and stamped my feet, the only point at which i felt angry and reacted was when someone took it upon themselves to write this line and i quote.
"Please desist in flouting the rules; it is not fair on all members that follow them"

 

PROBLEM

This post is in no way being critical of anyone least of all @MCLARKE. I have got a beef and would like some feedback. The naps table with its current rules in my opinion is not a level playing field. Here is my beef... I have two winning naps this month the first Botanik Bet365 BOG won for me at 9/1, it returned on the naps table at 11/4 a significant deduction you will all agree, the reason was because it was a French race rule- sp only, the second winner Techno Music bet365 BOG won at 28/1 returned on the naps table at 10/1 a significant reduction once again, the reason, it was a race in Germany rule-sp only. I contend that this is unfair and can see no reason for this/these rule/s and ask that it/they be scrapped maybe with a proviso that if asked, proof that the price claimed must be produced because I recognise that MCLARK has a difficult enough job as it is. The competition must be fair to all and those submitting naps on European races should not be penalised. I also realise that there is a rule that says Cards must be available in either the racing post and or Attheraces why? whats wrong with Bet365 or any other bog site PP Betvictor Betfred etc, the racing post has selected cards from all over the world as does ATR. oddly enough Hoppergarten Germany was on neither but unbelievably obscure cards were listed namely, seoul south korea and wadonga australia. but germany Hoppergarten wasnt.

Unless someone, somewhere has written something i've not seen, i can't see who this is addressed to. 

[Zilzalian]

4 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

Can i point out that your example does not show the BOG? The main part of the problem is the BOG. secondary is the disqualification because the meeting didnt appear on RP or ATR.

 

[harry_rag]

6 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

The screenshot that i posted from my bet365 account as an example. clearly showed that i had obtained the price of 28/1 so is the time relevant?

Possibly? Otherwise could there be a scenario where someone takes a bet at a juicy price and only posts it when it's been heavily backed in? I think the principle of being able to verify that the price was available at the time of posting is relevant. (I check this for all my bets as half the time I'm not putting them on with the firm I mention as I get get a boost on top elsewhere, but I check on the bookies site that the odds I'm quoting are available at the time I post.)

If I was @MCLARKE I'd probably feel I'd had enough feedback now, lock the thread and make my decision. I don't think anyone can expect "one man, one vote" unless they're willing to be elected as the person who runs the naps competition from now on! 

[Zilzalian]

45 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

 

 

if this isn't enough proof then we are all wasting our time and words on this.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Zilzalian
exasperation

[Xcout]

Nevertheless, the rules state SP for international.

[Zilzalian]

Just now, Xcout said:

Nevertheless, the rules state SP for international.

Sorry but with respect, that is the whole point of the thread, changing the rules

[LeMale]

3 minutes ago, Zilzalian said:

if this isn't enough proof then we are all wasting our time and words on this.

I think it's already been covered when MClarke said that a date and time would be needed, so no, it isn't enough proof.