Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

[TheBoyRooney]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? i wouldn't say he will mind be called the worst jockey to win the championship if he keeps winning it every year.:cow.

[Trotter]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? I was half watching the meeting today on RUK...........Thommo was commentating and was 'Maniganing' ten to the dozen........... :lol:lol

[TheRat]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Well done to Paul, another huge effort and thoroughly deserved. Top bloke too :clap

[billvernon]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? So Paul Hanagan , Ap McCoy and Ruby walsh the worst Jockeys ever ;)

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Congratulations to Paul Hanagan for winning the jockey championship for the second year running.It was fortunate for him that Ryan Moore was injured again and he took full advantage by taking more mounts than anybody else which paid off. I think SDS would have taken it had he not been required to ride in foreign classics/top class races in Europe as well as a mount in the Melbourne cup. Whether Hanagan can do it a third time remains to be seen.I think he has a bright future ahead and will be a top jockey sooner than later.

[TheBoyRooney]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? You should never deal with "ifs and buts" or "would have or could have".Its like saying that "Arsenal would have won the league if they hadn't dropped points away to stoke and west brom" he fact is he is "The Champion"

[Trotter]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Well done hannigan the mannigan..........:p I don't particularly go along with this idea that you've got to win the Derby and the royal ascot races to be Champion. Let's face it, it's just as hard winning 16 runner handicaps up north as it is winning 6 runner group races down south But there does seem to be something wrong with the way the Jockeys title is decided............basically it seems to be a prize for driving up and down motorways One of the guys on the Sunday forum made a good point this morning.........when the top professionals in any sport announce at the beginning of a season that they are not competing for their own Championship, it suggests there's something wrong. I don't think basing it on 'prizemoney' is the answer because prizemoney is an incidental to a jockey who's job is to win races. It's fine for trainers who's job is to place horses to win prizemoney but that's not the jockey's role. I can't really think of any other way to decide the title apart from number of winners and i guess we just have to accept that most of the big names in the sport are not in contention for their own championship. And really I'm not sure that most racing fans pay much attention to it either

[stewartd14]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

You should never deal with "ifs and buts" or "would have or could have".Its like saying that "Arsenal would have won the league if they hadn't dropped points away to stoke and west brom" he fact is he is "The Champion"

:clap This.

[stewartd14]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Congratulations to Paul Hanagan for winning the jockey championship for the second year running.It was fortunate for him that Ryan Moore was injured again and he took full advantage by taking more mounts than anybody else which paid off. I think SDS would have taken it had he not been required to ride in foreign classics/top class races in Europe as well as a mount in the Melbourne cup. Whether Hanagan can do it a third time remains to be seen.I think he has a bright future ahead and will be a top jockey sooner than later.

SDS would have made it a lot closer for sure, pity he had to ride in Melbourne. As for the last comment, don't be ridiculous. You can't say he's not a top jockey just because he hasn't ridden in the big races. For 2 years running he's ridden more winners than anyone else and won the championship on merit. If you mean that in the future he will prove himself to be a top jockey by going to the big meetings and winning, then perhaps I agree. However, to say he isn't yet a top jockey is bordering on ridiculous. (in my opinion of course!)

[DLL]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Well done to Paul and he deserves it for the effort he's put in throughout the year but it seems a very unfair way to choose a champion jockey. I don't know the exact number but Paul had about 150 more rides than De Sousa this season (and probably more than Hughes last year). To borrow the football analogy, you wouldn't ask Man City to play 38 games a year and then let Man U play 44 would you because they'll have a greater chance to accumulate points. Maybe they should bring in a system where the jockey with the highest percentage of winners (from at least 500 rides) gets the title to make it fairer. Just something to think about.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

As for the last comment, don't be ridiculous. You can't say he's not a top jockey just because he hasn't ridden in the big races. For 2 years running he's ridden more winners than anyone else and won the championship on merit. If you mean that in the future he will prove himself to be a top jockey by going to the big meetings and winning, then perhaps I agree. However, to say he isn't yet a top jockey is bordering on ridiculous. (in my opinion of course!)

Why can't i say he's not top class at the moment , it is my genuine opinion and i'm sure theres plenty of silent members on here who'll agree. I'm not in any way saying he's a poor jockey , far from it . But at this moment in time he's not top class . He's not in the same league as Fallon , Dettori , Spencer , Murtagh etc. Saying that he is a similar age to Fallon before he got his big break as stable jockey to H Cecil. If you recall he was nothing more than a journeyman jockey handicapping horses for Mrs Ramsden for her husband to gamble on. I am saying that in the next season or two he will be competing in bigger races against the established big boys rather than shy away by going to Catterick.

[Haystacks]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

I am saying that in the next season or two he will be competing in bigger races against the established big boys rather than shy away by going to Catterick.

Hanagan doesn't 'shy away' from the big meetings. He has a contractual agreement with Richard Fahey, for whom he had 474(!) rides this year. If Fahey has runners at Catterick rather than Ascot or Newmarket then that is where Hanagan goes. If in future Fahey has more high-class runners then Hanagan will naturally ride more winners at the top meetings, partly from Fahey and partly from the good spare rides he will then be able to pick up. For example, prior to this year he had only ever had one ride for Saeed Bin Suroor, and this year he had ten (three wins), and he also had a lot more rides for William Haggas in 2011 than previously. Hanagan seems like a very hard-working, talented and likable guy, and I'm sure he has the 'potential' to ride lots of Group 1 winners. However, as of right now he has achieved a 'quantity' of wins, but not the 'quality' of wins of such outstanding past champions as Piggott, Carson, Cauthen, Eddery, Dettori and Fallon.

[Trotter]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Maybe they should bring in a system where the jockey with the highest percentage of winners (from at least 500 rides) gets the title to make it fairer. Just something to think about.

Just checked out the RP jockeys stats and under that system Ryan Moore would be champion jockey ! R Moore - 19% R Hughes - 18% W Buick - 17% J Spencer - 17% De Sousa, Fallon, Fanning all on 16% Hayley Turner - 15% Hannigan, Makin, Queally, Kirby all on 14% Dettori had a 20% strike rate but didn't have 500 rides

[stewartd14]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Well done to Paul and he deserves it for the effort he's put in throughout the year but it seems a very unfair way to choose a champion jockey. I don't know the exact number but Paul had about 150 more rides than De Sousa this season (and probably more than Hughes last year). To borrow the football analogy, you wouldn't ask Man City to play 38 games a year and then let Man U play 44 would you because they'll have a greater chance to accumulate points. Maybe they should bring in a system where the jockey with the highest percentage of winners (from at least 500 rides) gets the title to make it fairer. Just something to think about.

Good idea in theory I must admit. My one worry would be that if jockeys got to 500 winners with a high strike rate, some may limit their rides to the best opportunities or the best races come the end of the season, perhaps losing some of the excitement we get currently ?

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Hanagan doesn't 'shy away' from the big meetings. He has a contractual agreement with Richard Fahey, for whom he had 474(!) rides this year. If Fahey has runners at Catterick rather than Ascot or Newmarket then that is where Hanagan goes. If in future Fahey has more high-class runners then Hanagan will naturally ride more winners at the top meetings, partly from Fahey and partly from the good spare rides he will then be able to pick up. For example, prior to this year he had only ever had one ride for Saeed Bin Suroor, and this year he had ten (three wins), and he also had a lot more rides for William Haggas in 2011 than previously. Hanagan seems like a very hard-working, talented and likable guy, and I'm sure he has the 'potential' to ride lots of Group 1 winners. However, as of right now he has achieved a 'quantity' of wins, but not the 'quality' of wins of such outstanding past champions as Piggott, Carson, Cauthen, Eddery, Dettori and Fallon.

I'm sure Hanagan throughout the season had many offers of riding decent horses at decent meetings but turned them down in order to ride odds on shots at Redcar and Mussleburgh. Your argument about R Fahey doesn't quite stick because on many occassions he's ridden at a meeting for outside stables whilst Fahey's runners are ridden by Topliss/Tylikcki. The same applies to Godophins number 1 , Dettori has on occassions ridden high class horses for other stables elsewhere when his stable has had runners at a different meeting.So what i am saying is that even though he is retained jockey he does not have to ride if he does not wish. You are right that he's had a few more mounts for Godolphin this year but they have also supported Fallon and SDS equally. I've been a big fan of Godolphin since day 1 when trained by Hilal Ibrihim. But this year it seems they are putting any old Tom Dick or Harry on board even Turner and Mongon have had rides too , although Sophie Mitchell did get a ride once during the 90s.

[Aidymac]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

I'm sure Hanagan throughout the season had many offers of riding decent horses at decent meetings but turned them down in order to ride odds on shots at Redcar and Mussleburgh. Your argument about R Fahey doesn't quite stick because on many occassions he's ridden at a meeting for outside stables whilst Fahey's runners are ridden by Topliss/Tylikcki. The same applies to Godophins number 1 , Dettori has on occassions ridden high class horses for other stables elsewhere when his stable has had runners at a different meeting.So what i am saying is that even though he is retained jockey he does not have to ride if he does not wish. You are right that he's had a few more mounts for Godolphin this year but they have also supported Fallon and SDS equally. I've been a big fan of Godolphin since day 1 when trained by Hilal Ibrihim. But this year it seems they are putting any old Tom Dick or Harry on board even Turner and Mongon have had rides too , although Sophie Mitchell did get a ride once during the 90s.

When Tylicki or Topliss ride for Fahey thats not Hanagans decision, thats Faheys decision!! It may be that the horse doesnt have much chance or that they want to get a better price about the horse, so they put Tylicki or Topliss onboard. Not only that but these 2 lads have to ride to make a living also, so i dont see the problem in them getting the odd ride ahead of Hanagan.. Its the same as when Ajtebi rides for Godolphin, they usually put him on to get a big price about the horse... Hanagan is a worthy champion, if they change the rules to prizemoney and he still stays in Class 6 sellers at Wolverhampton, then give him stick, but he has done nothing wrong and deserves every bit of credit he gets.. Time to get off his back and find something else to blab about as its getting all too repetitive! You dont seem to want to let it go

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Its the same as when Ajtebi rides for Godolphin, they usually put him on to get a big price about the horse...

I'm very certain that is not the case.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

When Tylicki or Topliss ride for Fahey thats not Hanagans decision, thats Faheys decision!! It may be that the horse doesnt have much chance or that they want to get a better price about the horse, so they put Tylicki or Topliss onboard. Not only that but these 2 lads have to ride to make a living also, so i dont see the problem in them getting the odd ride ahead of Hanagan.. Its the same as when Ajtebi rides for Godolphin, they usually put him on to get a big price about the horse... Hanagan is a worthy champion, if they change the rules to prizemoney and he still stays in Class 6 sellers at Wolverhampton, then give him stick, but he has done nothing wrong and deserves every bit of credit he gets.. Time to get off his back and find something else to blab about as its getting all too repetitive! You dont seem to want to let it go

Is that the way it is? Genuine question. In my head i've imagined it as Hanagan asking Fahey what kind of chance the horse has, or Fahey saying he doesnt really fancy the horses chances much so if he wants an outside ride with a better chance to go for it.

[ONEDUNME]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Good idea in theory I must admit.

I think it's a silly idea myself. So the champion jockey would just be the one contracted to the stable/owner with the best horses? We can all argue about who the best jockey is and the current system may not be perfect but at least the guy who wins in is the one who has worked the hardest.

[Haystacks]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

It may be that the horse doesnt have much chance or that they want to get a better price about the horse, so they put Tylicki or Topliss onboard. Not only that but these 2 lads have to ride to make a living also, so i dont see the problem in them getting the odd ride ahead of Hanagan.. Its the same as when Ajtebi rides for Godolphin, they usually put him on to get a big price about the horse...

Strongly disagree with much of this. Godolphin is certainly not a 'gambling' stable. When they put Ajtebi on board it certainly isn't just to 'get a big price about the horse'. I don't think that's the case with Tylicki or Topliss (or Hamilton or McHugh) riding for Fahey either. And they don't 'get the odd ride ahead of Hanagan'. They get rides simply because Hanagan can't be in two places at once and is sometimes suspended or injured (and sometimes also Fahey has more than one runner in the same race). When Fahey has a runner in the race but Hanagan rides for a different stable, it is almost always because the Fahey runner has practically no real chance. In which case it makes sense to put up a 'lesser' jockey anyhow, since theoretically the horse would likely then finish an additional length or two behind, which might lead to a better handicap mark in future.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Is that the way it is? Genuine question. In my head i've imagined it as Hanagan asking Fahey what kind of chance the horse has, or Fahey saying he doesnt really fancy the horses chances much so if he wants an outside ride with a better chance to go for it.

This is pretty much it. If it has no chance he'll ride something which does.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Strongly disagree with much of this. Godolphin is certainly not a 'gambling' stable. When they put Ajtebi on board it certainly isn't just to 'get a big price about the horse'.

True , gambling is strictly prohibited in the Middle East. Sheikh Mohammed and team don't gamble whatsoever.

[DLL]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Good idea in theory I must admit. My one worry would be that if jockeys got to 500 winners with a high strike rate' date=' some may limit their rides to the best opportunities or the best races come the end of the season, perhaps losing some of the excitement we get currently ?[/quote'] I doubt they'd limit their rides just because the have a good win percentage. The riding fees and prize money are a jockeys bread and butter, the title is just a bonus, it is just a job to them at the end of the day. Just because a jockey is riding a better quality of horses it doesn't mean they'll have more winners. All yards go through bad periods and anyway just because a horse is good it doesn't mean it always wins does it.

[ONEDUNME]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Just because a jockey is riding a better quality of horses it doesn't mean they'll have more winners.

Doesn't it? I suggest you look at the list above and see which jockeys have the highest percentage of winners. It quite obviously does.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Riding top class horses in top class races is what all jockeys strive to achieve. Hayley Turner said something like she would have been happy just to have the July Cup win on her CV than all the others combined this year.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Strongly disagree with much of this. Godolphin is certainly not a 'gambling' stable. When they put Ajtebi on board it certainly isn't just to 'get a big price about the horse'. I don't think that's the case with Tylicki or Topliss (or Hamilton or McHugh) riding for Fahey either. And they don't 'get the odd ride ahead of Hanagan'. They get rides simply because Hanagan can't be in two places at once and is sometimes suspended or injured (and sometimes also Fahey has more than one runner in the same race). When Fahey has a runner in the race but Hanagan rides for a different stable, it is almost always because the Fahey runner has practically no real chance. In which case it makes sense to put up a 'lesser' jockey anyhow, since theoretically the horse would likely then finish an additional length or two behind, which might lead to a better handicap mark in future.

That wasnt the case with Gritstone (i think) the other week. On a side not, i like Lee Topliss, seems to have had his claim for ages but has always looked solid when i've seen him ride, never put off when i see him onboard a Fahey runner.

[fintron]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Well done Paul Hanagan :clap If this system is to be reformed, how about working it on a points scale? For arguments sake, something like 1 pt for a seller/claimer/classified stakes win 2 pt for a handicap/maiden win 3 pt for a pattern win 5 pt for a classic win Not entirely sure whether it would work, just throwing the idea out there, but it would at least address the issue that a plating win currently equals a classic win in the current set up?

[TheRat]

Champion jockey should be the hardest working jock with the most winners. If you want a champ that can work a few days of the week attending the big meets and a few other meeting then fair enough. Personally I don't. It is down the trainers to make as much money for their owners so that is why this is different

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Champion jockey should be the hardest working jock with the most winners. If you want a champ that can work a few days of the week attending the big meets and a few other meeting then fair enough. Personally I don't. It is down the trainers to make as much money for their owners so that is why this is different

This.

[TheBoyRooney]

Champion Jockey paul hangan interviewed on sky news this evening was asked by the interviewer "people have been commented that you are in fact the worst jockey since last years winner,yourself,what do you think of that?". Hanagan quite miffed replied "i am very depressed as i keep winning the title but i am clearly useless.I graft and i graft and i travel for hours leaving my lovely warm home driving down to tracks with 6 people in attendance .I go and ride 5 or 6 horses on a cold November night in wolverhampton when i could be at home with my family,I dont get home till all hours and my family are all in bed. Fallon is at home watching im a celebrity in front of his fire,when Im so cold that my toes are freezing and my todger has disappeared,there is ice hanging off my nose, and i have to try and get a horse that has one gear,backwards, to win a CLASS 7 donkey fest and it comes off the bridle in the stalls.He clearly deserves because he is riding beautiful looking machines at ascot and newmarket on a lovely saturday in july.it is true i am the worst champion for two years running ever." :nana ----------------real interview Paul Hanagan retained his title as champion jockey as the British turf season ended at Doncaster on Saturday, with neither he nor his rival, Silvestre de Sousa, being able to register a single success between them. De Sousa, who had four rides on the card, would have shared the title if all four had won but none of them finished in the first three. Hanagan described the feeling as "a big relief" after De Sousa's first mount of the day had finished last of 17 and pointed out that his battle with Richard Hughes last year had also been decided on the final day. "It feels like a big weight has been lifted and it's gone right down to the wire again. "This season seemed to come around so quick. It didn't feel like two minutes since the last season ended and the new one began, but in a good way the balls just kept on rolling. It didn't feel as hard this year. "[De Sousa] has been riding out of his skin and deserves a lot of respect. We've just had a quiet moment when he came up and shook my hand. I'm just going to enjoy this." If he repeats the pattern he established last year, Hanagan will now take a break from riding, in Britain at least, until March, and he appeared to be in need of a holiday. Asked on Channel 4 if he would be mounting another challenge for the title next year, he replied: "I've got to take a step back. I can't keep going on like this or I won't last long." It would, perhaps, be dangerous to take those comments at face value, since Hanagan has established his reputation as perhaps the hardest working jockey in the country. He finished the season on 165 winners, with De Sousa on 161 and Kieren Fallon third on 145. De Sousa spoke of his pride at getting so close and said: "I never thought I'd be in the first two for the title." But, as is almost invariably the case among Flat jockeys, he would not commit to making an attempt on the championship next year, saying only that he hoped for a similarly successful season