Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

I think your talking nonsense personally. As a matter of fact i dont even rate Peslier as a good jockey, not to mention a great one. The reason Hanagan doesnt ride in the top races is because he aims to win the jockey championship and he has a greater chance of winners in smaller races. If the jockey championship was won on prizemoney, then Hanagan would be riding in the top races imo. It has no bearing on how talented he is as a jockey, he is probably the most accomplished jockey in Britain at the moment

1. O Peslier is a top jockey whether you agree or not , the facts speak for themselves. He has achieved more in his very few rides in Britain than Hanagan. 2. In August Hanagan said he wasn't going to kill himself for the Championship. 3."....the most accomplished jockey in Britain..." For the purposes of a debate you can air an opinion but you cannot make things up. What you said is absolutley ludicrious and cannot be backed up by facts.I'm sure most of us on here would agree. 4. What actual nonsense am i saying.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

1. O Peslier is a top jockey whether you agree or not ' date=' the facts speak for themselves. He has achieved more in his very few rides in Britain than Hanagan.[/quote'] Mate, that's just reputation you're talking about. They are bound to win races with CP Lemaire, because they ride good horses. Purely on ability, I'd say Guyon, Soumillon and Barazalona are better than Lemaire and Peslier. And hungrier too, so they try as well.

[Aidymac]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

1. O Peslier is a top jockey whether you agree or not , the facts speak for themselves. He has achieved more in his very few rides in Britain than Hanagan. 2. In August Hanagan said he wasn't going to kill himself for the Championship. 3."....the most accomplished jockey in Britain..." For the purposes of a debate you can air an opinion but you cannot make things up. What you said is absolutley ludicrious and cannot be backed up by facts.I'm sure most of us on here would agree. 4. What actual nonsense am i saying.

He is the most accomplished jockey with regards his ability! He always gives his backers a great run for their money, he does not make many mistakes, his timing is fantastic, his positioning is fantastic, he is very strong in a finish! Compare him to Richard Hills , would you call Richard Hills accomplished? Cos i call him a numpty

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Agree with your post Fintron. Even stable jockey Neil callan gets kicked off when there is a race they want to win.Last week there was a group race they wanted to win and they replaced him with a top jockey the same happened at Longchamp in a Gr1 yesterday , despite Callan being present at the meeting.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

He is the most accomplished jockey with regards his ability! He always gives his backers a great run for their money, he does not make many mistakes, his timing is fantastic, his positioning is fantastic, he is very strong in a finish! Compare him to Richard Hills , would you call Richard Hills accomplished? Cos i call him a numpty

Like i said you cannot make things up. He does not give his backers a great run for their money. His rides are often underpriced therefore you do not get the true odds. Of all the top jockeys , with Hanagan you are losing money at a faster rate.To a £1 level stake he is -£268 , compared to Fallon -£88 , Hughes +£43 ,Spencer -£71 , Dettori -£4 , Buick -£17. His stike rate avarage in the last 5 years is also lower than those above. Richard Hills is one of the most accomplished rider today. I'm sure no one will disagree with that. You just making yourself look silly by calling him a numpty.

[Aidymac]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Like i said you cannot make things up. He does not give his backers a great run for their money. His rides are often underpriced therefore you do not get the true odds. Of all the top jockeys , with Hanagan you are losing money at a faster rate.To a £1 level stake he is -£268 , compared to Fallon -£88 , Hughes +£43 ,Spencer -£71 , Dettori -£4 , Buick -£17. His stike rate avarage in the last 5 years is also lower than those above. Richard Hills is one of the most accomplished rider today. I'm sure no one will disagree with that. You just making yourself look silly by calling him a numpty.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[fintron]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

It's exactly that, Fin. The northern boys always have it tougher. Why isn't Phil Making given G1 ride by top owners? He's top 3 in the country with SDS and Buick at the moment.

How could I forget Makin! Yeah, I am a fan of him too.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Richard Hills is one of the most accomplished rider today.

I don't know for the rest of you, but this just ended the discussion for me. Richard Hills is the worst professional jockey currently riding and anybody, who can't see this, (don't wanna sound rude) should consider giving up on this game. At least with the punting part of it.

[Aidymac]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

I don't know for the rest of you' date=' but this just ended the discussion for me. Richard Hills is [b']the worst professional jockey currently riding and anybody, who can't see this, should consider giving up on this game. At least with the punting part of it.

Fully agree! And the irony of him telling me i was making myself look silly by saying he was not accomplished! I think you are actually being nice about Hills there Mileni :lol He is pathetic! Your losing 3 lengths as soon as you put him up on a horse

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Fully agree! And the irony of him telling me i was making myself look silly by saying he was not accomplished! I think you are actually being nice about Hills there Mileni :lol He is pathetic! Your losing 3 lengths as soon as you put him up on a horse

At the end of last year I had him as Richard Hills (7). A horse has to have 7lbs in hand to back him, beacuse he is that bad. Watching him this season, he is probably double that. A horse should have a stone in hand to win with him. He can't even ride out a finish over 1m6f, he is that weak in the saddle. Time to retire I'm afraid, he is embarrassing himself.

[Jimmy2shoes]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Surely it is a problem with the system though, and its the system that needs berating, not Hanagan? I don't dispute your point about his lack of rides in Pattern races though. Maybe it is something to do with him being Northern based - less fashionable, and not an arse licker who gets a 'job for the boys', like some of the southern riders do. De Sousa, Frankie, Hughes, Spencer or Moore would be the first names I'd be looking for if I was looking for a jockey for a Pattern race. Beyond that though, I personally think Hanagan is on a similar level to Callan, Buick, Fallon, Murtagh, Fortune and Ahern, but it seems to take time for the northern jockeys to "worm" their way into the big southern yards where the powerful owners send their runners. It took Callan a while to make the breakthrough at Jarvis' yard having been riding in the North for Kevin Ryan and his breakthrough seemed gradual. Silvestre De Sousa has also 'served his time' on the northern circuit for the likes of Green, O'Meara et al but got a break with Johnston when Fanning did his heel in, and that has put him well and truly on the map. He looks ready for a big job at a Newmarket yard in my opinion and is more likely to make the breakthrough than Hanagan because he's had more opportunities at Group level and proven himself in the Group 3's and Listed races etc so is more likely to bridge the gap. Like in most things in life though, Its all about who you know, and he isn't a woman that can sleep his way to the top and can't rely on the old boys network that some of the southern rides can. The likes of Hayley Turner, The Hills Brothers and Ted Durcan get plenty of good rides and none of them are as useful as Hanagan IMO. That said, I don't think he did himself any favours when, under the spotlight, he gave Native Khan a poor ride in the RP Trophy last year. It was interesting to see Fallon then on FTO this year (until the dispute with the owners prior to the Guineas).

Great Read.

[Bathtime For Rupert]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Richard Hills is really poor. I've seen some clueless rides from him recently. It's annoying when top quality horses are let down by poor quality rides.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? If Richard Hills is so bad then why does he continue to ride for Sheikh Hamdan ? What about the trainers who use R Hills like M stoute , J Dunlop , M Tregonning , W Haggas etc . Are they bad judges for putting him up ? Of course not. If they didn't believe in his skills then they would do somthing about it. When R Hughes took over P Eddery as retained jockey to K Abdulla a few trainers refused to put R Hughes up. They were H Cecil and M Stoute who both refused the retained jockey to ride for them. If M Stoute didn't approve of R Hills surely he would do the same and get some other rider.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

The likes of Hayley Turner' date=' The Hills Brothers and [b']Ted Durcan get plenty of good rides and none of them are as useful as Hanagan IMO.

Picked from twitter - Ted Durcan't. Or "the horse was durcanized". :rollin

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

If Richard Hills is so bad then why does he continue to ride for Sheikh Hamdan ?

If he was any good, he would've won on Taqleed. Gosden obviously can train, but Hills on the horse - 12,6,8,7. Why? Cos he's useless. Havlin takes over and wins. O'Shea too. Last year Hills 12th in the maiden. Mackay and Buick take over and 2 wins.

[Darran]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

If Richard Hills is so bad then why does he continue to ride for Sheikh Hamdan ? What about the trainers who use R Hills like M stoute , J Dunlop , M Tregonning , W Haggas etc . Are they bad judges for putting him up ? Of course not. If they didn't believe in his skills then they would do somthing about it. When R Hughes took over P Eddery as retained jockey to K Abdulla a few trainers refused to put R Hughes up. They were H Cecil and M Stoute who both refused the retained jockey to ride for them. If M Stoute didn't approve of R Hills surely he would do the same and get some other rider.

In my view its probably because of who he is, hes been around for years and obviously the Hills family have been huge in racing, and thats why they dont mind using him, Ive had this discussion with you before and you are obviously the only person who thinks he is any good. Hanagan doesnt ride in Group 1 races because his main trainer doesnt have any Group 1 horses. He is therefore going to be where is trainer wants him to be and so what if that happens to not be the main meeting. Unless they change the jockey title to prize money (which I hope they dont) he has every right to win it as the jockeys who win Group 1 races.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

If he was any good, he would've won on Taqleed. Gosden obviously can train, but Hills on the horse - 12,6,8,7. Why? Cos he's useless. Havlin takes over and wins. O'Shea too. Last year Hills 12th in the maiden. Mackay and Buick take over and 2 wins.

Are you suggesting it was down jockey and no other factors ? Seems that you have formed a club to ridicule R Hills without taking into account any other considerations.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

In my view its probably because of who he is, hes been around for years and obviously the Hills family have been huge in racing, and thats why they dont mind using him, Ive had this discussion with you before and you are obviously the only person who thinks he is any good. Hanagan doesnt ride in Group 1 races because his main trainer doesnt have any Group 1 horses. He is therefore going to be where is trainer wants him to be and so what if that happens to not be the main meeting. Unless they change the jockey title to prize money (which I hope they dont) he has every right to win it as the jockeys who win Group 1 races.

You can confidently put any former champion jockey on a Gr1 horse and be confident of a good ride.However can you confidently put the current champion in a championship race ? The same goes with the jumps.The current champion can ride any horse whether a donkey or champion horse. This is my argument , not whether he's a good or bad jockey , but whether he deserves to be on the same shelf as other champions. Piggott ,Eddery , Dettori , Carson , Roberts ,Fallon , Hanagan ????

[Aidymac]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

You can confidently put any former champion jockey on a Gr1 horse and be confident of a good ride.However can you confidently put the current champion in a championship race ? The same goes with the jumps.The current champion can ride any horse whether a donkey or champion horse. This is my argument , not whether he's a good or bad jockey , but whether he deserves to be on the same shelf as other champions. Piggott ,Eddery , Dettori , Carson , Roberts ,Fallon , Hanagan ????

Wrong... I would not be one bit confident if Spencer or Hills was on a horse i had backed. I dont know what you have against Hanagan, he has proven he can ride plenty of winners and if he does move into group races he will prove it there too, afterall its still just a horse race! How do you know Hanagan would not do well in group races? Crystal ball there alongside you?

[fintron]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? RE Taqleed, the lack of appropriate ground is partly to blame but I also agree that the hapless Hills is also the main reason why he hadn't won this year. Tagdh O'Shea gave him an unbeleivable ride held up at Newmarket last time and I doubt old man Hills would have timed his run as well, or been strong enough to get him home from that position.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Are you suggesting it was down jockey and no other factors ?

Not entirely, but about 99%. He is that bad. His ride on Nehaam in the Ebor was ridiculous. He stopped riding the final 2f, because he was knackered. Then few weeks later he finished 2nd on him, but again ridiculously weak in the saddle despite his horse travelling better than the eventual winner.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

RE Taqleed' date=' [b']the lack of appropriate ground is partly to blame but I also agree that the hapless Hills is also the main reason why he hadn't won this year. Tagdh O'Shea gave him an unbeleivable ride held up at Newmarket last time and I doubt old man Hills would have timed his run as well, or been strong enough to get him home from that position.

That's true, yes. Not entirely Hills' fault, but it was good enough at York for him to go close and he was given a poor ride.

[Darran]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

You can confidently put any former champion jockey on a Gr1 horse and be confident of a good ride.However can you confidently put the current champion in a championship race ? The same goes with the jumps.The current champion can ride any horse whether a donkey or champion horse. This is my argument , not whether he's a good or bad jockey , but whether he deserves to be on the same shelf as other champions. Piggott ,Eddery , Dettori , Carson , Roberts ,Fallon , Hanagan ????

Yes he does because he rode more winners than anyone else last season as he might well do this season as well. As someone else said a G1 race is just a horse race but he just hasnt had the chance to ride in these races. I wouldnt not back something because he was on top.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Yes he does because he rode more winners than anyone else last season as he might well do this season as well. As someone else said a G1 race is just a horse race but he just hasnt had the chance to ride in these races. I wouldnt not back something because he was on top.

Nobody is disputing the fact he's ridden more winners than anybody else. Of course a Gr1 race is just another race but Gr1s are what all jockeys strive to win.There has been jockeys who in their entire career didn't even get a single ride in a Gr1.The fact is that when Gr1 rides are available Hanagan often overooked by Dettori , Fallon ,Hughes , Murtagh , Buick etc etc. Suggests that trainers believe there are better jockeys out there. This question is whether he is the "worst Champion jockey" not "worst jockey".

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

This question is whether he is the "worst Champion jockey" not "worst jockey".

Well he isn't, because he's better than Spencer, Sanders and Moore. The only reason he isn't on G1 horses is, because he's a northern lad trough and trough and just like Makin and SDS is often overlooked.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

The only reason he isn't on G1 horses is' date=' because he's a northern lad trough and trough [/quote'] Ludicrious statement. Theres far more to it than that , than being based in the north. Lack of experience in top class races is one.

[kev2oo9]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? To be fair he's had 28 grp 1 races with no winners and 2 places....

[Aidymac]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

To be fair he's had 28 grp 1 races with no winners and 2 places....

That would be down to the quality of horse he was riding! Richard Hills , how many favourites for Group 1 races does he get to ride on? And he still makes a balls out of most of them... Personally i think Kieran Fallon is the best flat jockey in the world (ability wise), but thats just my opinion. At the end of the day the opening thread was to argue is hanagan the worst champion jockey? The answer is simply no because he is better then Sanders and Spencer.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ? Thanks AIDYMAC for answering the question , although i would have to disagree at this moment in time. I think he'll be a top class jockey in years to come. As for Spencer , i'm not a fan of his but i do acknowledge he's a top class jockey , who on occassions cocks it up trying to look clever . Sanders , in the same trap as Hanagan ,whose stable are mainly handicappers , but he has ridden and won top class races throughout his career.Won the championship by default through Moore's injury , but i applaude him for making the effort just like Hanagan last year.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Paul Hanagan worst Champion Jockey for years ?

Ludicrious statement. Theres far more to it than that ' date=' than being based in the north. Lack of experience in top class races is one.[/quote'] Well I don't even rate him. I think he is just a good rider no more, but there are many more jockeys, who are worse than him and are on G1 horses just because of their agents or reputations.