2,000 Guineas

[wizzkid walter]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Shock Richard's trying to be controversial yet again. Shock

[Blair Boy]

Re: 2,000 Guineas I think what needs to be remembered is the rating is just a ''provisional'' for the time being and not set in stone. Shall be interesting to see how much the rating has been adjusted come the end of the season.

[richard-westwood]

Re: 2,000 Guineas lmao :D........im just trying not to get too caught up in the hype ,thats all ......does no one see where im coming from? or am i all alone :cry

[Trotter]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

lmao :D........im just trying not to get too caught up in the hype ' date='thats all ......does no one see where im coming from? or am i all alone :cry[/quote'] I'll do my speed ratings for the meeting later and let you know what i come up with.............:ok

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

timeform have just claimed that was the best performance ever and the ratings for the last 2 winners are given above ......even into a head wind he doesnt come close to them ............and people pay for that ?

Sea Bird 145 in the Arc.

[richard-westwood]

Re: 2,000 Guineas lol gt ........im totally wrong .......dubawi gold a pre race 114 on timeform has finished within 6 lengths of frankel and now has jumped up to 130 then is what they are saying ?oh please because if frankel is such a wonder horses and dubawi gold has finished within 5 lengths then hes right up there with sea the stars !!!!! may as well give up ......lol

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

lol gt ........im totally wrong .......dubawi gold a pre race 114 on timeform has finished within 6 lengths of frankel and now has jumped up to 130 then is what they are saying ?oh please because if frankel is such a wonder horses and dubawi gold has finished within 5 lengths then hes right up there with sea the stars !!!!! may as well give up ......lol

To be Frank, who cares what TIMEFORM think, their ratings are totally crap, wait to see what the official handicapper thinks. To be fair to the 2nd and 3rd they came clear of the rest of the pack and must be decent.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

To be Frank' date= who cares what TIMEFORM think, their ratings are totally crap, wait to see what the official handicapper thinks. To be fair to the 2nd and 3rd they came clear of the rest of the pack and must be decent.

I wouldnt have said that with Ginge around :rollin

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

I wouldnt have said that with Ginge around :rollin

Timeform do buy into the hype a tad, if you buy their racecards and back their top rated in every race , you would look like this ...:cry

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

142 is a joke ........theyve just got wrapped up in the whole hype of the day .......if timeform think -1.8 on good.firm warrants a rating of 142 ..........am i thick or what ....if anyone does speed ratings do they honestly think that was a performance of 142 ? all hes done is accelerate off a snail pace and fair play to the horse im not knocking him doing the business on the day .....but does no one else think that form is highly suspect and dont be surprised if he gets beaten by something in a race or 2 time then we'll revise his rating and what happens if the fillies run a quicker tomorrow ?not saying they will but if they do then this forms a joke

:puke OK Richard, You say Timeform's rating is a joke. I hope you can take the same comment about you. Timeform don't do hype. A "snail pace", absolute rubbish. Take a look at the horses who chased him home from a distance. All the principles were held up or dropped out. Those who tried (and failed) to go with Frankel, ended up out the back. I have no sectionals, but suspect they went too quick early. Had Frankel gone slower early, Frankel would have won by further. And if so, the time would have been better. However... The time was an extremely good one. I've told you before, you should not judge purely on going, but take a look at all of the times. The going was officially good-firm good in places. I would not be surprised if the going was more like Good all over. There was also quite a strong headwind that effected times today, we saw one shot with the cameraman struggling to keep the view steady. To compare this time with anything other than what happened at Newmarket today is .... I have not looked at how I would rate this race yet. May be Timeform's rating is a little too much, but if it is, it is only a little.

[RuleBritannia]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Superb performance by Frankel. Time is irrellevant, as it's only relative to the pace set etc..... plus take into account the fact he idled (slowed him down more) yet still won by 6l. Richard, you are so one dimensional in your thoughts here imo and need to take others opinions into account instead of just saying they/we are caught up in the hype and your speed ratings are clearly more effective than those at timeform etc.... Just relax and enjoy the moment :)

[Trotter]

Re: 2,000 Guineas I've done my speed figs for the meeting which incorporate going and class allowances and I have Frankel scoring a good rating of 109 For comparision............Green Destiny scored 81 in winning the big class 2 handicap and Tangarine Trees also scored 81 in the group 3 Palace House, Dandino scored 76 winning the Group 2 race. With those group 2, 3 and big handicap winners scoring around the 80 mark.......109 is a very good rating !............30 lbs better than group 2/3 winners As for the second, Dubawi Gold...........he scored 97 today. His previous two runs this season were 83 and 89...........83,89,97 looks a nice sequence for an improving colt........ Frankel scored 88 winning the Greenham.........so improved about 20 lbs today............which would equate to about 6/7 lengths. That's well within the bounds of possibility if, as Cecil said, he would come on for a run and was being trained for the Guineas not the Greenham............ On my figures I'm happy to take today as a very solid group one rating..............we'll see what the fillies do tomorrow !

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Timeform do buy into the hype a tad' date=' if you buy their racecards and back their top rated in every race , you would look like this ...:cry[/quote'] Zenyatta, Bookmakers look at Timeform too. More's to the point so does Peter Martins and bookmaker's odds compilers. ie The market is like it is because of Timeform. Because so many punters buy Timeform these days, the "top rated" is often over bet or put in the race by bookies at too short a price. It seems you think Timeform top rated is a "Timeform tip", it is not. The best way to make a profit from Timeform is to study the race. Taking in to account all the write up, as well as rating. And so come to a conclusion who the value is. That could be the horse who you believe has the best chance of winning, it could be the one you believe has the worst chance of winning. Also, the horse you believe has the best chance of winning is often one quite a few pounds below "top rated". If you excuse the aftertiming - I backed Dandino today at early prices, having him in my book as the best chance of winning (and value), even though Timeform had him 5lbs below top rated. Value is everything.;)

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

I wouldnt have said that with Ginge around :rollin

:lol;)

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Just because someone is incapable of using Timeform to produce a profit, does not mean others are incapable of doing so. And does not mean Timeform ratings are "crap".:eyes :notworthyPhil Bull, if you are looking in from up there: Forgive them, they know not what they're saying.

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Zenyatta, Bookmakers look at Timeform too. More's to the point so does Peter Martins and bookmaker's odds compilers. ie The market is like it is because of Timeform. Because so many punters buy Timeform these days, the "top rated" is often over bet or put in the race by bookies at too short a price. It seems you think Timeform top rated is a "Timeform tip", it is not. The best way to make a profit from Timeform is to study the race. Taking in to account all the write up, as well as rating. And so come to a conclusion who the value is. That could be the horse who you believe has the best chance of winning, it could be the one you believe has the worst chance of winning. Also, the horse you believe has the best chance of winning is often one quite a few pounds below "top rated". If you excuse the aftertiming - I backed Dandino today at early prices, having him in my book as the best chance of winning (and value), even though Timeform had him 5lbs below top rated. Value is everything.;)

No worries I like Timeform really. Their comments on individual horses characteristics are usually spot on. Horse racing is all about opinions, makes it interseting.

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Just because someone is incapable of using Timeform to produce a profit, does not mean others are incapable of doing so. And does not mean Timeform ratings are "crap".:eyes :notworthyPhil Bull, if you are looking in from up there: Forgive them, they know not what they're saying.

I usually make a profit without Timeform...:cheers Their write ups on horses are brilliant but some of their ratings are a bit off the mark.

[jtw1]

Re: 2,000 Guineas We've just witnessed the annihilation of those who were at least prepared to take FRANKEL on and all there seems to be on here is negativity !!!!! Come on guys , if your not just taking the piss, at least sit back watch the race again and marvel at the way this horse has trounced [and theres an overused word] the opposition in the first Classic of the year . Absolutly outstanding run from what i hope turns out to be the Derby winner.

[Cal]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Machine. That is all.

[richard-westwood]

Re: 2,000 Guineas of course i can see what your getting at .......what i do in theses situations is take the winner out ........if frankel wasnt in this race then the 2nd horse would have won in -2.2 (for argument sake ) and everyone would have been saying crap result ,crap time forget that race it was just one of those dodgy results you get from time to time but re insert frankel and im not taking away from the horse he did the business on the day but it looks like he did the business whilst the others just floundered .......i know it sounds ridiculous and you'll probably laugh but the only thing that would make this result "right " is if the ground was good/sft ? then the time would be excellent ,the proximity of the 2nd and 3rd horses would be better explained ........etc makes no sense to me 2 donkeys in the frame nearly always rings the bells for me and usually means theres something wrong ,as zenyatta mentioned i think the handicapper might give us a better picture

[Monterosso]

Re: 2,000 Guineas :gimme, and lots of it.

[FlowRock]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

of course i can see what your getting at .......what i do in theses situations is take the winner out ........if frankel wasnt in this race then the 2nd horse would have won in -2.2 (for argument sake ) and everyone would have been saying crap result ,crap time forget that race it was just one of those dodgy results you get from time to time but re insert frankel and im not taking away from the horse he did the business on the day but it looks like he did the business whilst the others just floundered .......i know it sounds ridiculous and you'll probably laugh but the only thing that would make this result "right " is if the ground was good/sft ? then the time would be excellent ,the proximity of the 2nd and 3rd horses would be better explained ........etc makes no sense to me 2 donkeys in the frame nearly always rings the bells for me and usually means theres something wrong ,as zenyatta mentioned i think the handicapper might give us a better picture

I am not in the position to correct you, but do not forget the wind, which can be as important as ground. A stiff wind in the face can slow you down a lot (I know, being a former 10k - Marathon runner and Ironman triathlete and cyclist) They say the guys at the coast need no hills, they have the wind...:) Frankel destroyed the field in the first 1/3 of the race and only two stamina horses could hang on. Your Speed fancy, who was trying to hang on first, was crushed by the force of Frankel and the wind. Frankel took the wind, like a knife takes butter.

[Trotter]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

of course i can see what your getting at .......what i do in theses situations is take the winner out ........if frankel wasnt in this race then the 2nd horse would have won in -2.2 (for argument sake ) and everyone would have been saying crap result ,crap time forget that race it was just one of those dodgy results you get from time to time but re insert frankel and im not taking away from the horse he did the business on the day but it looks like he did the business whilst the others just floundered .......i know it sounds ridiculous and you'll probably laugh but the only thing that would make this result "right " is if the ground was good/sft ? then the time would be excellent ,the proximity of the 2nd and 3rd horses would be better explained ........etc makes no sense to me 2 donkeys in the frame nearly always rings the bells for me and usually means theres something wrong ,as zenyatta mentioned i think the handicapper might give us a better picture

I think it must have been the wind which slowed all the races down today..........Frankel still posted by far the best time (per furlong) of any race on the card. And you had a group 2 race, a group 3 race and a big handicap won by a group horse running in a handicap.............and they were all older, more mature horses than frankel My take on it is that the adverse wind slowed all the races down from what you would expect group horses to run on good, good to firm ground.......maybe made it the equivalent of what they would have run on good to soft ?

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas I did not see the race live, if they were running into the wind then that performance is one of the greatest of all time and the winning time was bleeding fantastic. Frankel posted a time nearly 3 seconds faster than the HCP Won by BAHCELI (RATED 87). So I would rate him around 132.

[cc75]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

so what your saying is if donovan bailey runs 40 metres in 4 secs then accelerates to win by 5 metres in 10.36 he's better than usain bolt who runs in the next race and wins by 1metre and records 9.92 .......because am i thick or is that what everyones saying to me ?

From a runners perspective this is a pretty bad example as a horses mile race would probably equate more to a 400m sprint than a 100m sprint. Therefore the way Frankel ran today would probably equate more like Michael Johnson running 45.5secs flat after running 19.7 for the first 200m (impossible to maintain that pace for 400m). However if he had ran at a more level pace, say 20.5 secs for the first 200m, the same runner in the same conditions would most probably run around 44.0 secs. Therefore, in my opinion, the time today is irrelevant to a certain extent - it was a visually taking performance and a destruction of field of horses prepped for a big run. Once again just my opinion :ok

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Exactly, it was one of the best of all time. Timeform give him a provisional rating of 142. The best ever Timeform ratings are: 145 Sea Bird II 144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel 142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City 141 Mill Reef 140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble, Harbinger When looking at a race to try and find horses that may be better than form suggests, I look at those who have out-performed those who raced with them early on. In this race, those racing nearest Frankel dropped away. Native Khan was held up in mid-division. Dubai Gold dropped out last of all, a couple of lengths behind the second last horse. I believe Frankel is even better than finishing positions suggest. Where as Dubai Gold could well be flattered, coming through already beaten horses who'd gone too fast early. It is not surprising Frankel's winning distance shortened near the line. I'll be rating him on the distance he was clear at least half a furlong out.

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Exactly, it was one of the best of all time. Timeform give him a provisional rating of 142. The best ever Timeform ratings are: 145 Sea Bird II 144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel 142 Abernant, Ribot, Windy City 141 Mill Reef 140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble, Harbinger

To rate him better than Sea The Stars after winning the Guineas is plain stupid, but like you say its provisional and is open to adjustment. Cant wait till he meets the older horses.

[Gingertipster]

Re: 2,000 Guineas Why Zenyatta? Horses only put up their best rating once or twice in a career. Sea The Stars only ran anywhere near his best at Sandown (Eclipse) and Leopardstown (Irish Champion). Stangely, people like to think of Sea The Stars in the Arc, where as that performance was some way below his best. Of course, sometimes a horse does not need to be at his best to win. A horse's rating should not go up for number of wins. A horse's rating is nothing to do with consistency, number of wins or temperament. If Timeform believe this one performance suggests Frankel is capable of running to 142, it would be wrong of them not to rate him 142. Otherwise readers can not know what Timeform think he's capable of.

[Zenyatta]

Re: 2,000 Guineas

Why Zenyatta? Horses only put up their best rating once or twice in a career. Sea The Stars only ran anywhere near his best at Sandown (Eclipse) and Leopardstown (Irish Champion). Stangely, people like to think of Sea The Stars in the Arc, where as that performance was some way below his best. A horse's rating is nothing to do with consistency, number of wins or temperament. If Timeform believe this one performance suggests Frankel is capable of running to 142, it would be wrong of them not to rate him 142. Otherwise readers can not know what Timeform think he's capable of.

To rate a horse on one spectacular performance is stupid, so they can rate him 142 and he never runs up to that standard again, how does that benefit punters or timeform students. On Sea the Stars, the Arc Win after a long season was the best performance of his career, his Eclipse Win was one of the greatest Eclipse wins of alltime. The best horse I've seen in the last 20 years is not even on the alltime list at timeform !!!! ZARKAVA.

[diamond1924]

Re: 2,000 Guineas If anyone is in any doubt how good Frankel was today, watch the race again, and maybe even again and again. There was no fluke about it, that was awesome and a thing of sheer beauty. That was the equivalent of watching Brazil in 1982, of Duncan Edwards in 1957, of Usain Bolt smashing the 100m record, Ali knocking out Foreman, and of course, Airdrie beating Motherwell 2-1 at Fir Park with 10 men. PS, why do Timeform only ever get quoted telling us how good a race was? Everytime I'm in Ladcrooks, they use Timeform to fleece us :-)