PL Poker League

[muttley]

Last night we had a great turnout for the final leg of the PL Poker League, the best ever, I think. This is no doubt due to the introduction of "double points" for the final leg, which was introduced a couple of months ago.

 I thought I'd start a thread to see what everyone thinks of the new scoring format.

[muttley]

My own thoughts are that it's been a big success, but have we shifted the advantage too far to the winners of the final leg?

In previous months the final leg often suffered because the top places were more or less decided. It wasn't uncommon to see only 5 runners, all competing for 3rd place in the league, so seeing 12 last night was very reassuring.

However, I secured 2nd place overall with two second places, a last place and a non-runner. So maybe there's too much of an advantage to the winners of the last leg?

Does it need tweaking? Maybe 1.5X pts for the final leg? Maybe score pts for all 4 legs? Maybe leave it as it is?

[ian309]

I'm glad you brought this up Paul, I was having similar thoughts myself. I couldn't play the first leg for well documented reasons and then I finished 6th out of 7 runners in the second leg, so I should have been effectively out of the running for top spot this month.

I have benefited hugely from the new scoring system but it's definitely to the detriment of the likes of Barry who had built up a healthy lead after three legs and looked set for a comfortable top three finish.

I agree that it probably needs tweaking but I'm not sure how. Scoring points for all four legs could work, as it rewards those who put the most money into the pot(s), but it also penalises those who can't play one or more legs for whatever reason.

1.5X points for the last leg is a possibility, but ultimately people will look at the league table after three legs and attempt to calculate the odds and work out if it's worth them playing. At the end of the day, the effectiveness of the points multiplier for the last leg is wholly dependent on the number of runners it gets... and that number is not known until the end of Late Reg.

This is definitely worth a debate and it would be interesting to hear the thoughts of the wider player pool 

 

 

[LIKE2FISH]

Great to see the biggest turnout for a while, agree that 2x for final leg was too much as Barry had built up a nice lead playing all the games and scoring well for the 1st 3 legs. 

Suggestion to try maybe like said 1.5x for final leg, have best 3 scores out of 4 still as people can't always make all legs.

 

[avongirl]

I did actually run the result through my spreadsheet without the double points and Ian still won overall (though obviously helped by the fact of us getting more runners due to the double points), Barry hung on to 2nd and muttley and Marek tie for 3rd.

I think I compared it last month too and it didn't actually affect the result then, but Craig did rather run away with it anyway!

1.5x instead of double this month still produces the same result.

No-one was really dominating this month, placings and points were being shared around so we were all closer together going in to the final leg.

[muttley]

Just to show how the double points could affect the league, if someone had missed the first three legs and won the final leg, they would have finished 2nd overall in the league. 

 

Other ideas:

The winner of the final leg is guaranteed to match the best points score of one of the previous legs; So leg 4 winner gets 95pts this month, even if only 6 register.

Each player can play a "joker", where one of there legs counts double.

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by muttley

[LIKE2FISH]

What you say bud about the below could be great idea  

"The winner of the final leg is guaranteed to match the best points score of one of the previous legs; So leg 4 winner gets 95pts this month, even if only 6 register."

 

[Sir Puntalot]

Happy to agree with the consensus.   As with everything, tweaking is never a bad thing so if it needs it, then tweak away.  

[ian309]

How about a sliding scale points multiplier for the last leg ? This would hopefully :

i)  level the playing field,

ii) still attract extra players for the last leg,

iii) protect the interests of someone who has built a lead. 

 

0 - 6 players = double points

6 - 11 players = 1.5x points

12+ players = normal points

[Danshot]

I personally don't get to play due to working nights on a Wednesday but I actually think the double points final week is the simple and most effective for people participation which should be the main aim for these home games , not determining what makes sure you have the best chance of added money which is still a sizeable overlay for the field sizes we get.

We are a community and building it back up should be the aim , not nit picking about a double points week which many other leader boards have used in the past elsewhere.

Keeping the league competitive in to last week doesn't harm anyone and those playing every week still hold an advantage 

[ian309]

On 6/2/2019 at 3:43 AM, Danshot said:

I actually think the double points final week is the simple and most effective for people participation which should be the main aim for these home games...

I actually do agree with you here... it IS the most simple and effective way, but is it the best way ?

 

..... not determining what makes sure you have the best chance of added money which is still a sizeable overlay for the field sizes we get... 

You appear to be suggesting that the proposals advocated in previous posts are in some way dishonest or leaning towards an angle shoot.

 

Keeping the league competitive in to last week doesn't harm anyone and those playing every week still hold an advantage

 Both Paul and I only played three games last month, yet we finished 1st and 2nd in the league as a direct result of the 'double points' initiative. 

As Paul quite rightly points out (above), if someone only played the last leg and won it, they would still have finished 2nd in the league. This hardly seems right and proper in respect of the added value.

Far from trying to..  "make sure you have the best chance of added money", all I have tried to do is suggest ways to promote a degree of fairness for the last leg whilst protecting the integrity of the league. I am actually arguing against my right to win the league in the fashion that I just did 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by ian309
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[avongirl]

Thanks all for the input.

I'll throw a couple more ideas into the mix which might help reward those who have played all month, whilst still giving everyone a chance to get on the podium.

Final leg multiplier x2 if you've played 2 or 3 legs already this month, and x1.5 if 1 or no previous legs played.  So last month a win for Vince or Al would still have given them 3rd overall with a 1.5 multiplier rather than 2nd with a double, although Thebestthere would have finished 4th with no previous points scored.

3rd leg multiplier x1.5 and 4th leg x2. On May results this would have swapped around muttley and marek, but still not helped Barry, as you've got to put your best work in at the end!

I'll wait til after tonight's game and see if any more input, then make an executive decision (for this month at least!)

[muttley]

I would say leave it as it is this month. No-one has actually complained about the double points for Leg 4 yet, just pointed out some potential anomalies.

Anything that gets the numbers up gets my vote!

[muttley]

One key question for people to consider is this: If you knew you were unable to play the Week 4 Leg, and it was double points, would you still play the other three legs?

 

My answer would be "Yes. But if I scored badly in the first leg, I might give the other two legs a miss."

[Danshot]

Just to clear up a couple of points @ian309 you and @muttley only 3 scores count on the month because a lot of people will miss at least one game so for 1st and 2nd to have played 3 weeks that seems perfectly likely whatever multiplier we use. 

Also my point wasn’t really about dishonesty it’s just 4 weeks and then reset so either way a couple of good results should lead to a good chance at extra value , the worse that happens with the new system is a win in the final week might get 2nd but more realistically 3rd if no other points previously.

It seems that actually the reverse that you and some others might feel guilty of leapfrogging someone by virtue of a great final leg. 

The idea of the 3rd leg 1.5x and final 2x , would likely prevent someone jumping in final leg and picking up extra value so maybe this is a good adjustment. 

Anyways good luck all on the tables 

[avongirl]

OK guys, we'll continue on with double points in the final leg for this month and have another look in the light of another set of results after that.

Please continue to comment with any thoughts in here, thanks.

[muttley]

There was an interesting turnaround this month. The top 3 places in the league were taken by the top 3 places in the final leg, and the top 3 going into the final week all missed out on a place!

More worrying was the turnout for week 3, which might suggest that people are becoming less inclined to play the earlier legs if they know that the added value will go to the winners of the final leg.

Suggestions welcome.

[ian309]

After a very poorly attended 3rd leg the podium positions were occupied by :

1 - Vince     2 - SciTopus     3 - Emeryt309

After the last leg with double points :

1 - Leo        2 - Zozzy          3 - Demioz  

 

After the last leg with normal scoring :

1 - Vince      2 - Zozzy         3 - Emeryt309

 

In last month's competition, if someone had only played the last leg and won it they would have finished 2nd in the league. In this month's competition, if someone had only played the last leg and won it they would have finished at least 2nd in the league.

IMHO this clearly shows that awarding double points for the last leg perversely alters the dynamics of the league. This not only places far too much emphasis on the last leg but it could also create a continual atmosphere of injustice.

Under the current rules, players could be forgiven for waiting until the end of Late Reg for leg 3 to see how many runners it gets before deciding whether to play or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by ian309
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[avongirl]

I think the main problem with the doubling factor is that the points difference between the placings is doubled ie. normally a 30pt diff between 1st and 2nd becomes a 60pt diff. (The formula we use means the difference between the placings is the same, irrespective of the actual points scored)

So an alternative could be to double the number of players in the formula for the final leg rather multiplying the points (so last week would be as if 24 players registered). This would increase the points available to be won but keep the normal difference between placings. Would also mean even last place scores some points. I did have a quick look at this on Weds but didn't save it. I'll run it through again and post the result later.

[muttley]

That might be the best solution.

[LIKE2FISH]

On 6/27/2019 at 8:51 AM, muttley said:

There was an interesting turnaround this month. The top 3 places in the league were taken by the top 3 places in the final leg, and the top 3 going into the final week all missed out on a place!

More worrying was the turnout for week 3, which might suggest that people are becoming less inclined to play the earlier legs if they know that the added value will go to the winners of the final leg.

Suggestions welcome.

I missed leg 3 late reg as go distracted by lil one! but you know I personally almost always play all 4 legs  

[avongirl]

Standard scoring in final leg

 

No double points but double entries in final leg

This actually produces the same positions as standard scoring would, and would also have meant the best position someone only playing leg 4 could achieve was 7th, and even Leo winning the leg with 2 other scores behind him wouldn't have made the podium.  I believe the whole idea of us doing the double points is to give someone a chance of getting in the money, and this is why we're seeing the good turnout for the final leg. If the system we use doesn't give this chance I don't think we'll get the players in.

Back to the drawing board!

[ian309]

If the collective minds of the PL haven't come up with a workable solution by now, maybe that means there isn't one. 

If everyone is content in the knowledge that it's entirely possible for a player to turn up on Week 4 and scoop 1st or 2nd place having only played the last leg, then so be it ?  It is what it is.

 

 

 

[avongirl]

Ian, I'm inclined to agree. The whole point is to give people a chance of doing exactly that, it hasn't necessarily happened in the other months but this time it did what it's supposed to do. And if only Vince (leg 3 leader) had managed to come 2nd-last he would still have hung on to 3rd place, so it was an extraordinary result which brought about the outcome we had.

We'll keep an eye on it, and I'm still open to putting in a multiplier in leg 3 in future, but this month being PLO leg is probably not the right time to introduce that.

 

[LIKE2FISH]

On 6/27/2019 at 8:51 AM, muttley said:

There was an interesting turnaround this month. The top 3 places in the league were taken by the top 3 places in the final leg, and the top 3 going into the final week all missed out on a place!

More worrying was the turnout for week 3, which might suggest that people are becoming less inclined to play the earlier legs if they know that the added value will go to the winners of the final leg.

Suggestions welcome.

I  checked the Facebook post for Leg 3. The regs that normally play had said they couldn't play leg 3 due to other things which was Yourself bud, Andy and Helen , I would of played  if it wan't for lil one  distracting me! and me forgeting to reg in time! It would of made it 10 players for leg 3 if us 4 had been able to play. This months been the highest turnout which is good for PL  

[muttley]

OK. Some more thoughts.....

Since the introduction of double points for week 4, two things have happened. Firstly, the numbers have increased, or at least not fallen off throughout the month, which is GREAT. Secondly, the league has been won each time by the winner of Leg 4. This isn't a problem if everyone is happy with it, and it hasn't impacted on the numbers player Legs 1-3 so far, but I'd like to explore other possible structures for the league.

Assuming everyone is ok with it, could we try another system, say Leg 4 scores Double Entries, for the next couple of months? Would be good to hear your comments, and I'm happy to consider alternatives.

[avongirl]

On 8/1/2019 at 4:14 PM, muttley said:

OK. Some more thoughts.....

Since the introduction of double points for week 4, two things have happened. Firstly, the numbers have increased, or at least not fallen off throughout the month, which is GREAT. Secondly, the league has been won each time by the winner of Leg 4. This isn't a problem if everyone is happy with it, and it hasn't impacted on the numbers player Legs 1-3 so far, but I'd like to explore other possible structures for the league.

Assuming everyone is ok with it, could we try another system, say Leg 4 scores Double Entries, for the next couple of months? Would be good to hear your comments, and I'm happy to consider alternatives.

yes I think it's time to give another system a try so we'll run with this double entries multiplier for a couple of months on the final leg. It will give extra points for playing the final leg so more people who have played previous legs should still be in with a chance. It probably won't provide enough points for anyone to come in and win by playing only the final leg.

(Incidently, last month, only the win was good enough to give Rivrd (or indeed myself who had not played any of the other legs) the overall win. 2nd place would not have given a league podium finish.)

[avongirl]

Difficult to assess how successful the double runners is, with Leo running away with the first 3 legs! However numbers in the final leg held up pretty well so doesn't seem to have put off too many from trying.

It's a fairer system in that it's not too heavily weighted towards the final leg. Had we continued the double points, on this month's results muttley's final leg win would have taken the league top spot (he did have 2 previous 2nd place finishes in leg 2 and 3), despite Leo winning all the other legs.

We'll continue to run with it next month.

 

[muttley]

It seems a fairer system, and I'm happy for it to continue. I would have been embarrassed to take 1st place after Leo's superb run this month. This month was slightly unusual, in that two of the money places were pretty much decided. I think it will be far more competitive in the last leg in most future months.

Thanks again to Punters Lounge for their continued support of the poker league!

[ian309]

The prospect of playing the APAT Counties Championships at Resorts World in a couple of weeks prompted me to re-read the thread for the last PL Poker meet up. Was it really 18 months ago ?! Are there any irons in the fire for another meet up in 2020 ?