Trotter Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 The new whip rules come in today (Monday) Disregarding the pros and cons of the change I'm wondered on the effect on 'form' Obviously the last few months or years, depending on how far you look at a horse's past record have been under the old system. So the question arises as to wether you now treat all form prior to today as suspect as a guide to future races ? For example.........I'm looking at Rough Rock at Yarmouth. He's won several times over this CD, he's fairly handicapped, drops in class and the yard is in decent nick But how do i know wether or not he needs a good whipping to get up on the line ? Similarly you're looking at a horse who's race comments say that he doesn't find much in a finish............I'd normally put a line through that one. But if his rivals can't be whipped as much maybe it won't matter that he doesn't find much, cos they won't either from now on.............and under todays rules he might be very well handicapped compared to the ones that need the whip to win. This will only be temporary as after a few months the form under the new system will be the current form and you work on the basis of that Are you going to be a bit more judicious in putting your cash down for the next few months until we have a decent amount of form under the new system ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Its a good point Trotter, I for one will be looking at the form (replays) very closely in jump racing in particular. The video form is a must i would have thought when looking out for possible animals that need a few reminders early on in their races to wake them up. I have already mentioned one old dog in the other thread, that needs attention all the time and to be fair does find for pressure but you cant back with these new rules. Maybe more horses will be wearing the head gear now, have you ever watched a South African race on ATR, the majority wear blinkers or visors, that will be us soon I fear although in general I do agree with the ruling. I think a few owners will be looking to offload at the upcoming sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Is it possible we may see a lot more front-runners winning with this new rule? I can envisage a lot of the hold-up horses being ridden more prominently due to this also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darran Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I thought this was very interesting and I think it sums things up well. Its written by jockey Dave Crosse. Last week took a lot of will power as I had 9 pounds to lose to ride my old favourite Snake Charmer at Fontwell. It's not always worth it but it's part of the job and this time it turned out to be well worth it, as he won! He did owe me that one after tripping up with a race at his mercy in Newton Abbot a month previously. It was also great to get a winner on my 2nd ride back from my Hernia operation but also on only my 2nd day wearing my new sponsor's logo, Lovetheraces. In the race itself Snake Charmer travelled ok but his jumping was a bit guessey as he had a few bad experiences recently and as ever took quite a bit of driving which brings me onto the whip debate... As you all must know by now the amount of times we can hit horses in a race from next Monday has over halved with the penalties being five times tougher! We are now only allowed to smack a horse 8 times in total during a race (5 after the last jump) and if we go one over we get a 5 day ban and we lose our prize money and riding fee for that race, whereas before it would be a caution. Some change in rules! Now, although I can see why the BHA are doing this, I feel this is an extremely harsh penalty and jockeys are going to be the big losers with these new rules. We are the ones in this sport, going out risking our neck everyday (don't forget it's the only occupation where you are followed by an ambulance whilst at work) and now if you make one tiny mistake when you are trying your hardest to win a race for the owners and punters, it'll end up costing you your livelihood. Let me explain a bit about race riding. When you are in race and your blood is pumping and it's all about you and your horse getting to the line first, sometimes it's easy to lose count of how many times you've slapped your horse to get there. However, I, like most other jockeys, like to think I know the difference between getting the best out of a horse in a race and beating it too much. Whereas, I am not too sure if the BHA do. You've got to remember that we are professionals and we love our horses (that is why we do this job) and we would never want to see a horse being treated cruelly let alone do it to them ourselves! My win on Snake Charmer last week at Fontwell, under the new rules would have meant that I would have got an 18 day ban. Watch my ride for yourself and see if you think my ride warrants a punishment of 18 days of not being able to work. Imagine if someone took away 18 days of your salary because you tried your best. Now this horse is the perfect example of a horse that will struggle to win from next Monday onwards under the new rules, as he needs a strong ride. I am certainly not being cruel, I am proud of the ride I gave the horse, but without the strong encouragement I gave him he would not have won. I am happy to report that Snake Charmer came out of the race fine with no harm done. If it's a case of one more slap of encouragement to win for what is crap prize money nowadays or a nice holiday where we can't earn any money you are going to see a lot of jockeys not giving horses a proper ride and accepting finishing 2nd. Can this be right? No but it's going to happen and cause a lot more punters turning their back on racing and us jockeys coming in feeling like we have not done our job properly. Is this what we want? We are all trying to get more people into our great sport, but the BHA have, as Ryan Moore put it, been very weak on this matter and have rushed into a decision. It seems that this decision has been made by non-horsey people and by that I mean people who do not fully understand what it is like to ride in a race. Are these people really in the best position to be making such important decisions about our sport? I feel very strong about this as it will affect people like myself who are freelance jockeys and need every ride to make a living. The public don't realise that jockeys work on a freelance basis and we have huge outgoings in order to do our jobs, for example, valets, agents and fuel to put in the car so it's potentially going to cost us money going racing. Can this be right? A lot of the horses I ride take a lot of encouragement and its people like me who the new rules will effect most. If I was riding for Nicky Henderson or Paul Nicholls who have horses that are better than the rest it would be easier as a lot of them won't even come off the bridal. Yesterday again I won on a horse called Justabout who like Snake Charmer may as well retire as of next week!! The bottom line is that the rules take effect as off next week and there is nothing we can do about it. We are going to have to change are styles and accept the punishment if we go over. Win and you get a holiday and no money or finish 2nd and carry on earning?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Dave Crosse has a point and i feel sorry for him! I think over the past week or so i have changed my views completely. I was initially in favour of the ruling, but when you dig into the foundations of it, it is quite ludicrous! The BHA are trying to do something good but in the process of doing 1 good thing, they are creating far more problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darran Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Dave Crosse has a point and i feel sorry for him! I think over the past week or so i have changed my views completely. I was initially in favour of the ruling, but when you dig into the foundations of it, it is quite ludicrous! The BHA are trying to do something good but in the process of doing 1 good thing, they are creating far more problems! I think that was the view of the jockeys to start with as well, but then when you think about it it doesnt make sense. Imagine whats going to happen during the time you can get banned for one of the big festivals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gord Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules will jockeys still get into trouble if they dont ride out to best finish is it a case of five cracks and job done surely this opens the sport up to all sorts of corruption how hard are the cracks if you give them a big belt is that more cruel than several light reminders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blair Boy Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I think the 1 to watch will be AP, Most of his midweek rides on horses who need that bit extra could surely never manage to win under the new system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy2shoes Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Lots of bans on the way. http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/11/10/10/RACING_Whip.html&BID=465 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Kieran Fox deserves his ban, he knew the story going into today and he hit the horse 15 times, the fekking idiot, what did he expect? As for Hughes, it is absolutely ludicrous he got a ban, if you watch the race replay it was extremely harsh! Sad day for racing if you ask me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterosso Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Step one to the ruination of a great sport. Well done to the BHA. Complete and utter idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwweeerrr Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I'm all for it. There's no point whipping the horses I bet on anyway, as usually there's no other horses behind them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Kieran Fox deserves his ban, he knew the story going into today and he hit the horse 15 times, the fekking idiot, what did he expect? Wasn't he on a gamble? I imagine his instructions were to win at any cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Wasn't he on a gamble? I imagine his instructions were to win at any cost Oh i agree!! He got a very nice backhander for what he did, you can be sure of that! This new rule will make racing more corrupt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bathtime For Rupert Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Crosse has it bang on in my opinion. Why on earth is there virtually no variation between the codes, also? I could hazard a guess a 3 mile chase might require a few more urgings than a 5f sprint. Jockeys are going to struggle to win, as he points out. It adds another factor into punter's minds and I just can't see it working. There are so many horses out there, especially over jumps, who need a lot of encouraging. I'd much rather see their full abilities shown rather than the jockeys having no option but to pull up when the horse throws the towel in. We have terrific driving finishes in this country with jockeys doing everything to win, and it makes foreign racing look a lot slower and duller in my opinion. Yes, maybe I'm biased because I'm not really against the use of the whip. Though I accept change, it's difficult to accept change that appears mindless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussP Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules This new rule will make racing more corrupt ....but it won't stop us betting, will it?;) Overall, I'm behind the new ruling although I do think the bans are a tad severe. With the explanation Hughes gave, I feel 5 days is damn harsh. Monte, I'm surprised you're expressed concern over the new ruling....a winner & a 3rd from 2 bets. What's your problem?:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules ....but it won't stop us betting, will it?;) Overall, I'm behind the new ruling although I do think the bans are a tad severe. With the explanation Hughes gave, I feel 5 days is damn harsh. Monte, I'm surprised you're expressed concern over the new ruling....a winner & a 3rd from 2 bets. What's your problem?:lol As long as them odds keep going, ill be backing Russy! :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I don't know why they didn't keep the rule as it was but increase the bans? Today Buick said he would rather finish second than get a ban, I doubt he would have said that before Having said that let's see how it goes, once it has been in place for a while and jockeys are used to it it may be fine. Frankie also said today it was awkward to know where the furlong marker was so maybe need a line there? The timing is strange with all the press it will get just before the Champions day and trying to promote that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules For punters, the initial concerns are: 1) All those quirky but talented horses are virtually unbackable anymore. McCoy can urge a horse along for 3 miles without whipping him, but how many jockeys are as strong as him? Horses that don't travel, but find for pressure, will struggle to be with any sort of a chance unless you have a damn strong jockey riding for you, which is not always the case. 2) Jockeys won't ride out a finish if they don't want to get a ban, which can only lead to false results and fluke winners. 3) Sometimes there are horses that aren't focused and jumping badly, but as soon as you hit them once or twice early in the race, they correct their jumping. Under the new rules you might see this type of horses falling or being pulled up after blundering several flights. I love backing lazy types, because I know they can win under the right jockey and the appropriate ride. Under the new rules that might need a rethink. All in all it's wait and see from me. I'll continue to back the same way I'm doing now, but if plenty of my horses are not getting the "proper" ride and are not where they should be, it might require filtering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Bet Racing Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules All in all it's wait and see from me. I'll continue to back the same way I'm doing now' date=' but if plenty of my horses are not getting the "proper" ride and are not where they should be, it might require filtering.[/quote'] I think this a very valid point. I myself am not in favour of this new rule, however the powers at be have made their decision, and the industry as a whole especially backers, will need to wait and see the true effects this will have. Horses with a front running style may benefit more from this IMO, and for me Top Class racing may be the least affected of the bunch as the trainers usually have their runners primed for the run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersson1984 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I cant believe Hughes getting ban, for that. Its day one. Give him a break. As Aidymac said, Fox is just an idiot. He should have known better. He apparently needed a bit of holiday. :p Hughes said he was counting and though he only used his whip 6 times. BHA should let him go whit a warning. Could someone please tell me when Hughes and Fox´s ban starts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKI Punter Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I really can't see how black and white rules have been implemented and actually considered 'workable'. It's a disgrace that they've actually put a number on the amount of times a jockey can use the whip. Every horse, every situation is different. Am I right in thinking the same whip rules apply to Grand National and Champion Chase, for example? It's ridiculous. Even in Hughes' case today. Using the whip to correct a horse is considered one of the allowed strikes. How is this going to work? I agree with Milen, I see a lot of false results coming up. The punishments jockeys face for breaking these rules is so draconian it's unreal. Reckon there'll be a lot more uproar soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I don't think it will lead to 'false' results...........but it might lead to different results There'll still be a winner in every race but it might not be the same horse that would have won under the old system That's my concern from the punter's point of view..........how long do we give it until the form under the new system is the 'current form' (I'd say a few months) and do we trust the old form in the meantime ? i suppose we have to as it's the only form we've got until most of the horses have run a couple of times under the new rules. The alternative is to take a break for a few months until we have enough current form under the new rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I don't think it will lead to 'false' results...........but it might lead to different results There'll still be a winner in every race but it might not be the same horse that would have won under the old system That's my concern from the punter's point of view..........how long do we give it until the form under the new system is the 'current form' (I'd say a few months) and do we trust the old form in the meantime ? i suppose we have to as it's the only form we've got until most of the horses have run a couple of times under the new rules. The alternative is to take a break for a few months until we have enough current form under the new rules. The BHA might have handed me a way of finding winners! Dodgy results for dodgy punters :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules The BHA might have handed me a way of finding winners! Dodgy results for dodgy punters :loon not sure what you're getting at......:unsure There's still going to be a winner in each race and it's up to the punter to try and find it. For the next few months you'll have an additional factor to take into account..........is the horse worth it's handicap mark under the new rules or has it only won races in the past because it needed vigorous whipping ? Alternatively........has that horse who always finished 4th or 5th now got a much better chance because it never responded to the whip anyway and it only got beat because the horses in front of it were whipped ? If you're willing to put the work in this could be a good oppotunity because most punters will probably just take the last few months form at face value without thinking about the new conditions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond1924 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules The jockeys and trainers should all threaten to strike on saturday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Just saw the Richard Hughes ride. That should never be a ban, that's just good riding to straighten the horse. Also William Buick's ride on Dream Ahead at Haydock was one of the best this year. Not sure if he would've managed to correct the horse the way he did that day if he was riding under the new rules. What are the rules for jump racing? Do they differ from the flat 7 slaps altogether and 5 in the final furlong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I don't think it will lead to 'false' results...........but it might lead to different results I call them false on purpose. We have a situation of a horse able to win with few more slaps if they start at the 2f marker, but because the jockey can only hit the horse 5 times in the final furlong and might have used his 2 slaps early in the race, he would have to wait for the final furlong. By that time his chance might have gone. I don't know what the exact rulings for the jumps are, but my instant example would be with 2 of my Cheltenham winners. Final Approach and Sir Des Champs would've never won their respective races under the new rules. They won, because they responded for pressure and their jockeys went after them long way out. Probably 3f or 4f out. Were they the best horses at the weights? By a long way I would say. Yes you might get some going your way as well, but I never feel comfortable with things "evening themselves out" over a period. Everything starts depending on luck. Picking the best horse (or best at the weights) still remains pivotal and I doubt new rules will change profit/loss results that much. I'm just worried many jockeys won't be trying before big festivals, which will definitely lead to 'false results' and this is something we really don't want to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjkmak Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I imagine things would get really interesting if over the next few weeks if more and more jockeys get long suspensions. Imagine if 10 of the top jockeys were all suspended over the same period or during an important meeting, that would be extremely embarrassing for the BHA who would surely have to rethink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Milen, the jump jockeys have 3 wacks out in the field and 5 after the last fence. Some are saying front runners may have an advantage? I'm not so sure, often these types especially over fences need a few strokes to get them settled in front and always need more when challenged half way round, I reckon some of them will find it hard to stay in front as long as they do now, then they usually sulk when headed. Need a good strong traveller and those with a turn of foot. The days of the staying galloper may be over, lots of horses will be pulled up now over jumps, should be interesting today at Huntingdon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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