Aidymac Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules not sure what you're getting at......:unsure There's still going to be a winner in each race and it's up to the punter to try and find it. For the next few months you'll have an additional factor to take into account..........is the horse worth it's handicap mark under the new rules or has it only won races in the past because it needed vigorous whipping ? Alternatively........has that horse who always finished 4th or 5th now got a much better chance because it never responded to the whip anyway and it only got beat because the horses in front of it were whipped ? If you're willing to put the work in this could be a good oppotunity because most punters will probably just take the last few months form at face value without thinking about the new conditions I was cracking a joke Trotter! :spank :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Just noticed Pairc Na Gcapall is running in the 3m2f handicap at 4.20, this is a perfect example of what i have been saying in the above post about a front runner that needs several reminders to keep going during the race, comes under pressure early and a typical sort that the rules will be a massive disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Milen' date=' the jump jockeys have 3 wacks out in the field and 5 after the last fence.[/quote'] Didn't realize it was that ridiculous. Just once more than the flat. We'll see how that goes :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy2shoes Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules FOX BAN 'HARSH' - OWNERS http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/11/10/11/RACING_Whip_Fox.html&BID=465 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Its ironic that they are trying to get rid of corruption in racing (not with this move admittedly) but in bringing in the whip ban, are arguably fuelling more corruption. Imagine you are in the shoes of one of the small trainers that pays their winter training bills by landing a touch. We all know who they are. It is getting to the end of the season and they line up a horse on soft ground that they've been getting well handicapped on fast ground all season. It has dropped to a very good mark and connections decide, today is the day. It opens up in the morning and 40/1 and they spread their money about and stand to win a small fortune if it comes in. They then get to the course and, at first show, the horse opens up 10/1. This is the day the owners and trainer have been waiting for all season and then now have to brief the jockey on how to ride in the race. What do they tell him? If you are in with a fighting chance on the run in, stick strictly to the whip guidelines and possibly have to settle for second, just so you don't lose your riding fee or prize money? Or do they tell him to use the whip as many times as possible in order to get it over the line in first, and they will then adequately compensate him for lose of riding fee and share of prize money out of their subsequent winnings (strictly illegal but there are always ways and means). The owner and trainer have been waiting all season to land this touch, I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to know what the probable outcome of the situation will be. This would not have happened under the old rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules The Huntingdon 3.50 is a perfect example why so many horses would struggle to win under the new rules. Yes the winner bolted up, but so many needed a wake up call to keep up with the pace. The jockeys weren't able to slap them and that's why you get a ridiculously big winning margin and the rest PU or nowhere (not travelling and not jumping well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules The Huntingdon 3.50 is a perfect example why so many horses would struggle to win under the new rules. Yes the winner bolted up' date=' but so many needed a wake up call to keep up with the pace. The jockeys weren't able to slap them and that's why you get a ridiculously big winning margin and the rest PU or nowhere (not travelling and not jumping well).[/quote'] lots of horses struggled to win under the old rules.......... there's still going to be a winner in each race - when you're looking at a race in a few months time when this form under the new rule is the current form. you'll see those horses from the 3.50 at huntingdon today and it'll show them as pulled up or beaten 30 lengths. That's the form you'll be looking at in the context of the race you're thinking of having a bet in I'm thinking from the punters point of view, not the owner or the jockey ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I'm just saying Spock could've concentrated better if he was slapped early. Points Of View obviously not good enough, but Spock and Firm Order were jumping like rags. Maybe it was the pace Ostland set, but early use of the whip helps a lot when the jumping is sketchy. Not just this race though. Some weird finishes all day. Will take getting used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbettle Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules What are the Whip rules like in neighbouring(ish) countries like Ireland, France & Germany? Has the BHA tried to align somewhat with any of them? What's it like across the pond, in the States & Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules No changes there. It has been banned in places like Norway and I think the general concensus from jockeys there is its crap. MAtt Chapman went over there and did a piece on it, might be on the ATR youtube channel In the states it is no where near as harsh as it was here, not sure there is any, watch Spencer on Cape Blanco recently, he didn't get in any trouble there and he goes to town on him The Irish Racing Association just said they will keep an eye on it here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Why am I not surprised that the biggest crook is supporting the rules? :eyes Trainer Ferdy Murphy had no sympathy for any jockeys opposed to the new rules. "I think they're absolutely fantastic," he said, "and, if the jockeys are complaining about it, they want to go back to school and learn to count. "My opinion is, in 100 races, you might have one horse that wouldn't win because of the whip rules. [Resistance from jockeys] is the absolute biggest load of bollocks. They're sitting in there like glorified gods, they need to get on and get on with it. The BHA have been absolutely fantastic. They've been incredibly fair." Yes Ferdy, I'm sure you'll be laying your horses even easier now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayalexander Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules What are the Whip rules like in neighbouring(ish) countries like Ireland' date=' France & Germany? Has the BHA tried to align somewhat with any of them? What's it like across the pond, in the States & Canada?[/quote'] I read that in Hong Kong, jockeys are encouraged to whip them as much as possible to get the best performance. But then again they do eat horse meat in that part of the world! http://www.livescience.com/12782-horse-whipping-racehorses-study.html is an interesting article from abroad. I suppose if they can't whip as much other here they still have the chance to use their heels as much as they want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKI Punter Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules It's hilarious seeing people say things like 'jockeys need to learn to count'. It's ridiculous. When you're going at that speed, going between horses, switching your horse and trying to win the race, trying to count is easier said than done. If you've got horses hanging into you, or your horse is hanging it's even harder. What's gonna happen with jockeys before meetings like Cheltenham or the Grand National? One whip too many and they might miss it. Do they care if they finish second in a novice hurdle at Hexham? Not in a million, and I don't blame them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules It's hilarious seeing people say things like 'jockeys need to learn to count'. It's ridiculous. When you're going at that speed, going between horses, switching your horse and trying to win the race, trying to count is easier said than done. If you've got horses hanging into you, or your horse is hanging it's even harder. What's gonna happen with jockeys before meetings like Cheltenham or the Grand National? One whip too many and they might miss it. Do they care if they finish second in a novice hurdle at Hexham? Not in a million, and I don't blame them. Like Richard Hughes was saying on tv yesterday, using the whip isn't something they often think about, its a natural reaction that they've been accustomed to ever since they started riding. If he horse hangs, etc, its their instinct to draw on the whip to straighten it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Good article http://www.sportinglife.com/racing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=racing/11/10/11/manual_163719.html&BID=465 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I don't know about you, but the races this week have looked absolutely woeful. The whole complexion of race, tactics and how the horses are ridden has changed. Form book truly out the window. I had plans to increase staking in 2012 after fantastic 2011, but I might actually start staking a lot less. Will be extremely selective in the next few weeks and if this rule is here to stay, then I'm not so sure what is gonna happen with this sport in the long term. I can only see owners/jockeys going abroad and punters not betting as much as before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules I don't know about you' date=' but the races this week have looked absolutely woeful. The whole complexion of race, tactics and how the horses are ridden has changed. Form book truly out the window. I had plans to increase staking in 2012 after fantastic 2011, but I might actually start staking a lot less. Will be extremely selective in the next few weeks and if this rule is here to stay, then I'm not so sure what is gonna happen with this sport in the long term. I can only see owners/jockeys going abroad and punters not betting as much as before.[/quote'] Its worse for you jumps boys I guess. When the horses in behind have no chance of getting up they all seem eased down behind. How the hell does the handicapper assess some of these wide margin victories? And as a punter, how do we know how to assess how close the losing horses got when they arent trying until the line? Its a complete nightmare! I dread to think what some of the big staying chases are gonna be like - remember the Eider when only a few completed. BTW that article posted by Nic Doggett of Sporting Life (Rat's link) is fantastic. The timing seems daft - one week before champions day. Why couldnt they have trialled this on the AW that no none gives a damn about over the winter, and if a success, implemented fully before 2012 flat season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 John Gosden very critical too. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/12/john-gosden-whip-rules-champions-day Not sure it's just the jumps although the NH code will be affected quite a bit and Charlie Longsdon and the instructions he had given to his jockeys showed it yesterday and today. His horses went at such pace that the rest just couldn't keep up. If you are allowed to use whip, then few other horses might have responded and chased, but under the current rules they had no chance and we got several winners bolting up. Flat racing looks ridiculous as well. It looks like american racing and those joke hands and heels races we have from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussP Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules For me, the principle is spot on but the detail is too harsh. Hughes' ban was a joke but Fox's well deserved. Need to find that balance:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules How can the rule for jumps be "after last jump" when courses have all kinds of run-ins? Some have less than 1f, others like Kelso/Aintree have a very long run-in. Watching more and more races, it appears as if it's been introduced like an absolute piss take. Not to mention the extremely bad timing (just before the Champions meeting with 3m in prize money). John Gosden is right, it could've been done more intelligently, but unfortunately the intelligent people in the sport haven't had a say in this at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/bha-agrees-to-review-new-whip-rule-penalties/931281/top/ BHA agrees to review the new rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Hughes has just got another 5 day ban, stepped off 8.20 ride and threatened to give up license Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussP Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Hughes threatens to relinquish his license after picking up another whip ban. Also given up his last ride of the night aboard Fanny May :eek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooner Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 :loon just see this on SSN, big statement from one of the top jockeys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Thank God I say. Jockeys must boycott a day and say "we won't ride" and the rule will be gone. Noone agrees with it, so why should they listen to bunch of clowns, who know nothing about the sport. They have all the power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules not just a threat, seems like he has actually quit... Richard Hughes has given up his riding licence after receiving a second ban for misuse of the whip in four days at Kempton. Hughes received a five-day ban for hitting More Than Words too many times inside the final furlong in Kempton's 1920 race on Thursday evening. He subsequently handed in his race licence in protest. "I've handed in my licence as of tonight," Hughes told Racing UK. "I can't ride horses knowing that I'm not doing myself and the owners who pay £100 a time justice," said Hughes. "I will only consider starting again if there is a review of the rules. I'd rather sweep roads than do half a job. I've notified Richard [Hannon]." "We're allowed to hit them seven times and both times I've been done, I've hit them six times, which is less than the amount you're allowed and I've got a fifteen day ban because of it and I miss the Breeders' Cup. "They've made the rules so you hit them more, so you have to get two into them before the furlong pole as then you've only got five left. I was always told as a young jockey the last jockey who goes for his whip normally wins." "They're taking the art of race riding away from me, it's like telling Messi not to use his left foot anymore." From SL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules All kicking off on twitter. All jockeys supporting Hughsie. AP should just refuse to ride tomorrow and the rules will be gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halav Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules end of racing :cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Looks like there is going to be a strike on Monday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy2shoes Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Re: Form and the new whip rules Looks like there is going to be a strike on Monday BBOTD will be two rain drops running down the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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