erhaab1965 Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 For many years i only bet each way (horse racing) at 5/1 or bigger to ensure a tiny profit if my selection comes placed. This year i've changed my thinking and backed each way at lesser prices if i thought the horse was sure to be placed. What i want to debate is whether it is a prudent bet or not.If my horse comes 2nd at 7/2 i make a loss , however i don't lose all my stake. Heres 3 of my recent selections : Harbinger : King George and Q E Diamond Stakes ,£100 each way at 5/2 (ante post)i know the SP was 4/1). It won returning me £500 (6/4 on my total stake.) Starspangledbanner : July Cup £100 EW @ 3/1. Returning me £575 (15/8 combined) Paco Boy : Jacques le Marois £100 EW @ 5/2. Returns £150 (£50 loss) These 3 specific bets were on horses that i was almost certain they'd be placed but not confident enough to stake £200 win instead.At £100 EW the most i'd lose would be £50.Does anyone else bet EW at short prices?If so whats the shortest price you can back EW at? If you think its bad betting , why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting That wouldn't suit me........but then I'm a £1 EW merchant........ :D I work on the principal that's it's a tenth odds if your horse is placed (fifth odds to half the stake) I tend to go for 25/1 and above...........tho' I have backed EW at lower odds, I'd never do EW at lower than 10/1 (evens for a place) Mind, if I was betting in hundreds I'd probably adopt your approach........:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 3, 2010 Author Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting Forgot to add , my normal stakes is anything from £1.00 EW to £30 win for normal racing , however i will bet a lot more in group races especially group 1's where the form often holds up. I find that in group 1's its easier to find win/place horses as sometimes the fields contain Gr2/3 and listed horses which aren't good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_eastern_ram Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting Depends on a lot of things for me, confidence, runners, how many i've backed in the race. I dont back E/W at less than 5/1 in any circumstances but i might lower my stake. Also never back E/W in 7 runner or less fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 3, 2010 Author Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting I sometimes bet EW in 5/6 runner races based on the fact that you have a better chance of picking a place horse. Take a 6 runner race.The are 2 places from 6 runners therefore you have a 33% chance of getting placed (2/6) For a 5 runner race it is 2/5 which equates to a 40% of picking a place horse. If you compare that with a 8 horse race it is 3/8 = 37.5% place 3/9 = 33% 3/10=30% 3/11=27% 3/15=20% Sometimes i think it may be value to find a place bet in a 5 runner race where you have a 40% of hitting , conversely a 15 runner race you have a 20% of hitting. Only my opinion what do others think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond1924 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting I got sick of betting e/w so now back all my horses to place, sometimes. Splitting the % win, eg 1pt in 4 pts place. Usually the returns can be minimal if too obvious with selections, but plenty of value to be had too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting I have 1 thing to say!! If you fancy a hors every much to place but not so much to win get your ass on betfair and stake 80% on the Place Market and 20% on the Win market.... Or 70%/30% !! At least this way you will be making a profit if it comes 2nd or 3rd instead of losing 50 quid as you earlier mentioned!! You have to try to make a profit in any bet you make in my opinion, not to settle for a small loss!! Thats negative gambling in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting From my experience I can tell you this, when i worked for a leading bookmaker the high majority of punters that were logged and nearly always ending being restricted were those that bet in this way, a lot of 'pro' punters only backed shorter odds EW, one quite successful guy who will remain anonymous standard bet was £250 EW on a 7/2, 4/1 range of horse, nearly always in 9/10 runner races with the usual 3 rags in the race. I have my own thoughts on this after logging punters for several years, i think it was a confidence thing with some of them, punters can be very fragile creatures, they hate 'losing' runs, it affects their judgement, if they get a regular return the mindset thinks they are on to a winning strategy, the win bit is a bonus to them. The other theory is obviously the method of a defensive punter, someone who likes to build up is bank gradually and has the discipline to do it. Been out of the game a while and obviously the exchanges have taken over somewhat and now as already said the place market is where most of this type of punter now resides. To answer the question, its not a bad way to bet in my opinion, not everyones cup of tea but backing 4 rags in a lucky 15 aint mine either but some do it every day, now we NEVER logged those type of punters, we gave them a cup of tea and looked after them;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting Thats a very valid point BH!! I suppose if you were betting that way you would want to be betting fairly large sums!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting Betting each way when the percentages are in your favour is a good way to go. You clearly know when the odds are in your favour Erhaarb, when number of runners are right it's a good idea. I've backed as short as 5/2, but wouldn't go shorter than that personally. Be careful, as too many bets like this and your account will be closed (as BH intimated) which defeats the object. I would not bet each way at short odds when the number of runners aren't in my favour. Although another time it is mathematically sound is when another runner is odds-on or very short odds-against. So races with 5, 8 or 16 runners where there's a short priced fav are the very best.:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc75 Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting To answer the question' date=' its not a bad way to bet in my opinion, not everyones cup of tea but backing 4 rags in a lucky 15 aint mine either but some do it every day, now we NEVER logged those type of punters, we gave them a cup of tea and looked after them;)[/quote'] :rollin So that's why they treat me so well in my local Laddies ;) :rollin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 3, 2010 Author Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting Interesting reply BH , what would it take to get an account anyway?( for curiosity) I've never had a winning year in 20+ years of gambling. But i recall several years back i had 3 successful £20EW bets on Pricewise selections in 2002 with Skybet.Next thing i know they reduce my pricewise selections to £10EW !! After i lost what was in my account i didn't bet with them anymore. I take it you worked for W H's , what is their policy on pricewise selections? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted September 3, 2010 Share Posted September 3, 2010 Re: Each way betting Interesting reply BH , what would it take to get an account anyway?( for curiosity) I take it you worked for W H's , what is their policy on pricewise selections? Not sure i understand your first question? Anyway my experience was with cash punters not any type of account. If your asking what would it take to be a logged client, well it depends, could be the type of bets, but usually if it effects 5% of turnover. I had one customer in my area that was responsible for over 70% of the shops takings, a dangerous situation but was allowed to continue due to his nature of chasing losses and backing short priced fav's. Think he bet 500k one year and got 400k back, he honestly thought he was skinning the shop, 9/10 of logged clients would be amazed how much they staked in a year if you told them. He was later sent to prision for drug dealing, the shop died overnight, it was later shut down and relaunched half a mile down the road and is still ticking over to this day, the guy probaly paid for the re-fit. The policy on pricewise was to take bets up to £25 until 10.15 and then they would slash the prices no matter how much they took, you would be amazed the lengths people went to to get more on, one day about 6 people were in the queue, from an old lady to a young kid, all wanted £25 on the same horse, all in the same handwriting! The 'Pro' punters never backed Pricewise in my time, they tended to be and still are bigger priced horses and too much of a risk for the guys who made a living out of it. Everyday they flagged up the 'EW races' I know they still do by talking to my contacts, depends what race it is but £25 EW is the level they normally accept, there are something like 67 betting shop licenses in Leicestershire, i know because I had to verify everyone of them some years ago, its not rocket science to know that with so many shops in a close vacinity that 'they' get enough on if they want to, hence the telephone pyramid system between 'sister' shops which was designed for many things but also used for tracking bets in the area such as this. I could write a book................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingertipster Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting For anyone who likes to win more, but feels safer having an each way bet; an "each way saver" is a good idea at reasonable prices. Putting on both a win and an each way bet. e.g. 13 points win and 18 points each way @ 7/1 (49 points total). 13 X 7 = 91 points 18 X 7 = 126 points 126 '/, 4 = 31.5 points If it is placed you lose 31 points (13 + 18) and win 31.5 points for a profit of 0.5 points. If it wins you win 248 points profit. A 33.62 point bigger profit than a 24.5 points each way bet @ 7/1. Had it been just 24.5 points (49 total) each way you'd win 171.5 for the win part and 42.88 for the place if it wins for a total of 214.38 points profit. If it is placed you make a profit of 18.38 points (42.88 - 24.5). If it neither wins or places you lose the same. Obviously the bigger the price the bigger the difference between the figures. 248 points profit or 0.5 points profit if it's placed for a win and each way bet. Or 214.38 points profit or 18.38 points profit if it's placed for just an each way bet. Or 343 points profit for a straight 49 points win bet (49 X 7). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting very good topic. For a lot of this season I have backed ew everytime and i have done so down to 5/2 as well, when they were paying 1/4 odds. Recently though, ive changed my strategy. If i have narrowed a race down to two and i get better odds on another to win than for the place, i have done away with the place. For example, at epsom last week had 0.75 pt win on city dancer at 5/1 and 0.25 pt win on oldjesaid at 12/1. If city dancer had placed and id done 0.5 pt ew then id only get my money back, but if my shortlist was accurate id be better off having oldjoesaid onside for an effective 5/2 win on the race. My theory is that if my methods was right both of either would go close, but if it was out then both would bomb out and the proprtion of stake would be irrelevant anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 4, 2010 Author Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting Was meant to ask what it took to get an account closed. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadley Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting Ive recently strted doing ew doubles at prices of around 5/2. If both are placed you make a tiny profit but if they both win a nice profit is made. Its working out quiet nicely so far and I would recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting Was meant to ask what it took to get an account closed. Sorry Quite simply if a logged client is proved to be unprofitable for the company over a peroid of time, say 6 months then certain restrictions start being applied, like SP betting only, or limits on stakes, obviously this is just to make the punter think twice about using that shop and send him down the road to the competitors. May sound like the bookie dont want to take bets and whats the point etc...but believe me these punters can have a dramatic effect on a shop, sometimes will affect the staff, the grade of the shop and ultimately the pay scale of that shop. Years ago a shop had to hit 20% profit to reach any targets and break even, not sure what the figures are now? I know on the internet accounts are closed much quicker for lesser amounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting i found a good write up on another site about preserving the life of your betting accounts...will try dig it out this aft.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Re: Each way betting i found a good write up on another site about preserving the life of your betting accounts...will try dig it out this aft.... here.... http://www.progambler.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=402&Itemid=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting I placed a bet the other day for the upcoming Victor Chandler Chase on saturday. It is an EW bet on Al Ferof at 3/1, which reminded me of this thread. I don't want to discuss the merits of whether Al Ferof can win or not but merely to ask those that fancy him , is EW a bet you would consider , its currently 11/4 now , I personally would take those odds EW if I hadn't already backed it . £1 EW returns £5.30 win (just over 13/8 combined) £1.55 2nd or 3rd. (approx 25% loss of your total stake ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting I stick to what I said earlier........... 10/1 is the minimum odds i would take EW That comes to Evens if it's placed (fifth odds, half stake, effectively tenth odds) As i wouldn't back anything at odds on to win I'm not going to back anything at under Evens to place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyHills Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting I have no problem with the bet Erhaab, is it still 3 places if you get a NR tomorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRat Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting The EW terms are the ones you take when you back it ante post I believe. So if you back a horse EW with 4 places at 1/4 odds and only 4 go to post you will get an EW payout if they complete as far as I know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting I just can't get my head around this concept of having a bet whereby if your horse gets placed you lose money.............. I mean, really..........whats the point ? I readily conceed that i might change my opinion if i was betting in hundreds rather than a quid EW................:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Saint Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting After days and days of trawling through previous years results, I can confirm that I have been and would have continued to be better off betting win only. However, this is not the attitude I am currently taking to my betting as when the circumstance is or feels right - I will be EW. It depends on the race, the number of runners and the make up of the market. At the end of the day, if you don't think the horse can win a race you probably shouldn't be betting on it at all! At the moment, and I think I will remain comfortable with this - If I believe that an EW or place bet is appropriate then instead of halfing my win stake - say from 1 point win to 0.5 points EW - I will have 1 point each way(1 point on the win and one point on the place). I think that makes some sense! Hope so!! The win part of my bet will continue to supply the same profits as before(and not piss me off for not having my normal stake on the win!) and if my place strike rate is 50% (which it is) then the ew portion of the stake will add further profit and more importantly, protect me from extended losing runs and poor staking or lack of confidence due to this. There is obviously an argument for just doubling my normal stake and having it all on to win which mathematically would be correct - however - I am more interested in avoiding long losing runs and protecting my mindset. I will only tend to do this if I can get a minimum of 0.7 or 7/2 a fifth of the odds. Absolute minimum - and not over fences either as there is so much more that can go wrong - fallers etc. Hurdles - just about ok in my experience. I will also consider increasing my win stake in order that the place part pays for it - eg - a 10/1 shot 1/4 the odds. 75p over 25p. The 25p at 5/2 would cover my win stake if placed. So in conclusion - win only is best mathematically but for me - Doubling my stake and going ew suits just as well - it works for my results anyway. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Saint Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Each way betting I just can't get my head around this concept of having a bet whereby if your horse gets placed you lose money.............. I mean, really..........whats the point ? I readily conceed that i might change my opinion if i was betting in hundreds rather than a quid EW................:lol Trotter - you are spot on mate - it's a phychological thing I am sure - with regards to staking amounts etc. As for you betting a quid a race - looking at your results and your reasoning thus far - I would strongly recommend a seperate amount is put aside and your stakes are increased with immediate effect! Been really impressed mate - keep up the good work!:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted July 15, 2013 Author Share Posted July 15, 2013 Re: Each way betting Long time Racing Post contributed, Richard Birch in today's column. " Punting low....a maximum bet of £500 EW on Big Time Billy (3/1) at York remaining on the bookies satchels after the staying on mare was beaten into a gut wrenching head for third." I'm fascinated by the concept of betting EW in low runner fields at shortish prices. That's a bet I do from time to time. I'm interested if the current crop of members have this type of bet in their arsenal. Is this something you'd do or would you be win only based on SP and under 8 runners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully3061 Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Re: Each way betting Agree with Aidy on the place side over at BF can split stake as you wish plus if horses pulled out the same places being paid usually remain. In short if you think a horse is nailed on to place you want to profit from it so for me its exchanges over a bookies ew bet at such prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kithanga Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Re: Each way betting These days I avoid betting each way in anything other than 16 runner plus handicaps where I'd consider backing at any price that was value for the simple reason that's it's more profitable than win only. Although certain races (8 runner, fav odds on, etc) are also profitable I don't back each way for fear of account restrictions or closure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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