Samba_SamPa Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Wow, I am glad he didn't take me up on my 20% stake offer :eek Mmm, unless I get to choose which 20% of my cavities are searched... :unsure It tickles me deep down inside... I think Felipe might find himself getting tickled deep down inside too. Probably during shower time! :loon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhorue Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? I love how a few of you absolutely shot down what FelipeMassa had to say. Yet it's obvious by your comments that you have zero knowledge of how Betfair, 'live' broadcasts and tennis work. Let me just say not all is what it seems... Felipe is definitely on to something here. I plan on doing what he's proposed with the Australian Open next year - provided that 'live' television images to Europe experience the same sort of delays as I have noted over the last couple of weeks. 50k+ per tournament is certainly possible. Have you guys seen how much markets move on particular points in tennis? Let me just say if you know what you're doing a killing can be made here. :D Even if I revealed to you the exact process to follow, not everyone would be able to go out and profit from this. This is because you need to be very organised (with 2-3 people involved preferably) and start off with a big bank. Anyway, good luck Felipe :ok Let me know if you need help with true live scores for Aus Open next year :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhorue Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Lol Lunatism! Some funny stuff there mate :) But who says you need to have a laptop courtside to pull this off ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Yet it's obvious by your comments that you have zero knowledge of how Betfair' date=' 'live' broadcasts and tennis work.[/quote'] Q. Which is the most favourable outcome for me? [ ] Rich, and buggered relentlessly? [X] Not rich, but with rectum intact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhorue Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Q. Which is the most favourable outcome for me? [ ] Rich, and buggered relentlessly? [X] Not rich, but with rectum intact? Lol fair call mate. But your initial reply in this thread: '$50 to $300k in 1 week. This is the best system I have ever seen. If I Western Union you $10, can I be in for 20% please? :hope' So what were saying there? I don't think at that point you understood what Felipe was talking about. You only switched to the 'oh no, i would rather not be rich but have my peace of mind' stance after lunatism confirmed profiting from courtsiding is actually possible. :lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Lol Lunatism! Some funny stuff there mate :) But who says you need to have a laptop courtside to pull this off ;) well - i'm aware of the betfair on the mobile (and I guess telephone betting too), but after they've banned laptops from the courts, no doubt they start paying close attention to anyone who is constantly on their phone too! Unless there is a psycic who owes you a favour :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhorue Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? lunatism - phone needed, betfair mobile not needed. Pretty much undetectable with bets being placed off court by a friend :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? lunatism - phone needed' date=' betfair mobile not needed. Pretty much undetectable with bets being placed off court by a friend :) well it would have to be phone calls made, right? Because a text couldn't be fast enough to beat the 20 second delay (unless you're a wizz at that kind of thing...and your network is supreme). But making calls needn't be a problem i presume, since you wouldn't even need to have your phone on display - because of the joys of handsfree, right? Bluetooth preferable, but even the bog standard handsfree cable...or some other outlandish idea (how about smoke signals, flares, carrier pidgeons) could probably do the trick i'm guessing.. Which means you could have a buddy off the grid completely in the middle of nowhere placing the bets for you (oh so convenient)... (i hope i've dressed this up as a viable option now anyway - just in case i came across as being too anti-courtsiding before :)) ...now I think (but don't know) that the main reasons the courts are getting peeved at this, is because they are losing credibility on all bookies offering live bet options on the tennis, hurting their reputations, and costing all bookies buckloads of cash...the only one who can would still profit from this is Betfair, and so the majority of people who are doing this will be on Betfair anyway (now that's just plain business sense, higher liquidity, etc). Why would Betfair stop allowing this then, when it brings in profit (and trading with such large amounts £100k plus etc), would be making so much for them? The AU article mentioned: "He added that he'd heard rumours this was happening. "I haven't seen it in practice," Davies said." That's Mark Davies a spokesman for Betfair...admitting to hearing rumours (which probably means seeing sudden spikes in certain trading accounts), while not seeing it in practice ("inspite of hearing rumours, we've made the choice not to investigate at this present moment why we're getting a lot more profits from certain tennis games"). But that doesn't mean that Betfair will remain passive in this for too long, this at best is LAZY and GREEDY approach, that will hurt them in the long term if it's not dealt with... They could be set to lose broadcasting contracts (and therefore can't stream the tennis matches or worse, not able to provide betting on the markets at all....no idea if the courts could take such action, but if i was the ATP, i'd be looking in to it as a worst case scenerio with sufficient evidence), another is reputation.....but whatever the choices they make - it IS a dangerous game to play. Period Whether or not Betfair currently give a damn about your potentially illegable (or at least highly suspect...still not sure on this) activities, the ATP will hunt you down. They will put thousands if not millions of money and hours into stopping it from happening, because it's costing them...credibility, revenue, advertising contracts (after all - which bookie is going to pay for advertising space when they know they'll be buggered from courtsiding?). But the idea of courtsiding is just a step too far, even for my outlandish tastes - just like everyone else, £50k to £100k in a week sounds like heaven, but if you have to go through hell to get it (and then have it confiscated anyway), is there really any point? Hhorue & FelipeMassa, I don't want you to reveal your techniques on here (and i'm sure you won't) just to prove that it's possible (for it definately IS possible)....i just can't help but wonder - wouldn't you say this was a lot lot more than gambling here? Most people just gamble with their money, while anybody who does something like pinching thousands from under the noses of the bookies via a courtside loop is liable for a very sore time in the future when eventually apprehended. (just to add - i could argue either way on this one, i flipped a coin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? ...opinions welcome you asked for an opinion.....I gave you essay responses....too much free time on my hands :lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelipeMassa Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? lunatism its nothing to do with bookmakers, only betfair, you dont understand the whole concept of it. Also ATP ban laptops courtside because they are worried about match fixing not people having a time advantage when betting on betfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? you dont understand the whole concept of it the concept ("an abstract or general idea inferred or derived from specific instances) is to exploit the 20 second delay on tennis matches and make yourself a lot of money in the process, starting out with a "moderate" bank of around $50k, which you would hope would balloon into the likes of $100k, $200k, $300k, etc The concept I have no problem understanding at all. The actual workings of it I do not (as i have already mentioned), nor do I expect you or anyone to tell me how to do it. This is your system, and I wish you the best of luck with it. Makes sense that you would try this (so much money after all, who can resist), but maybe you don't realise that my post (well, the first one at least on this thread) was explaining why people might find the idea entertaining - answering your question (see below). That is all I don`t get your jokes really' date=' somebody explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grex Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Felipe..... the idea of this forum is to promote constructive discussion between people interested in the "sport" of betting. It is rather unconstructive to repeatedly accuse people of "missing the point" or "talking nonsense" (as you said in response to one of my earlier posts). I think that, by now, all readers understand your method... and that you intend to exploit Betfair only. However, as usual, Loon writes a lot of sense (and I mean a LOT ;)). Betfair may not object to last-second "matching" of (say) 50k bets, but a lot of other interested parties may take action. (I think perhaps Loon is stretching it a bit with his talk of penal "rape" and "buggery".... I can't actually see anything illegal with the proposed method... you would simply be exploiting a "loop-hole" in the system). But Betfair is not the only way of exploiting this "courtside" method. Surely the 20 second delay could also be used to take advantage of live betting offered by the standard bookies..... in this case you would not be limited by the liquidity on the exchange books, only by the maximum allowable bet offered by the likes of Bet365. However, I think the standard bookies would quickly close you down.... after all, it's their money you would be "stealing", not that of other unsuspecting punters. Anyway, as I have said before, I wish you good luck with your first trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelipeMassa Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? There is no 20 second delay, at usual tournaments sat viewers are as little as 1-1,5 seconds behind. The problem is at bookies you won`t be able to make more than 50 bucks, because firstly they have 6-10 seconds time buffer for acccepting bets which should usually be enough to block even live viewers from taking outdated prices and secondly you wont be able to trade out instantly, limits are very low and quickly even lower if you are winning a bit. Its just about being faster than anyone else on betfair which is a huge advantage in those very liquid and viable markets. Also sitting in the stands is how beginners do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelipeMassa Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? seems my original question was pointless to ask as nobody seems to have experience with this and can for that reason accurately tell how much money can be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve-C Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? seems like your original question left out the point about you knowing more about this than you've let on and have a good idea of how much can be obtained without even asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelipeMassa Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? steve i think somebody do this before i didn`t. So thats why i ask how mcuh money to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FelipeMassa Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? ??? Why nobody answer this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? because we're not cheating scum :unsure Anyone care to offer a good reason for this thread and it's poster not to be nuked ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Intensity Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? He's clearly a little boy who has no idea what he's talking about and is unwilling to listen to what others have to say. Only reason not to nuke is that the thread's been slightly comical thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datapunter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? What excactly is your problem AJ ? You have a different point of view, so what. Or you somehow feel the poster is talking about something that in your perspective "is not done", so your reaction is to ban the guy and delete the thread. Who are you to make that kind of decision ? He's done nothing wrong, hasn't after-evented, hasn't had a go at anyone, hasn't posted spam, all he's done is formulate a betting action that he thinks might give him an edge over others and asked if there are any other people who have already done the same and are willing to share about it. ( to which the answer is nobody has or is not willing to share ) You want to offer your point of view, or share your thought or feelings, fine. Just get off your high horse and let people make their own conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datapunter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Right, can't say the above and not post my own views on the matter :\ Does betting courtside give you an edge ? Yes, you are a few seconds faster than the general betting crowd using television or feeds and yes you can make money with that. How much i have no idea, remember you are not the only one doing it, there wil always be only 1 who is fastest. Once the available volume is swooped up only crumbs remain. Is there something "wrong" with doing this ? O ffs wake up and get real will ya. Each time you place a bet you are after someone else's money. Even with a bookie because the only way for a bookie to pay you winnings on a bet is from money that he received from other punters that lost. On Betfair it's obvious, you bet against another person and hence try to get that person's money. And everyone tries to get an edge. Some do it by form study, some by intuition, some by martingaling, some, like myself, by using programming / databases / maths / etc... everybody. Period. So when you go on Betfair you KNOW there are people with faster information than you. Every dickhead at a football match with a mobile phone is a few seconds faster in knowing a goal is scored that anyone not there. You either accept that and WORK WITH IT. If you have a problem with the way that works then stop betting completely, or stop betting that way. Then only bet when and where you know the playing field is even. Down your local pub with your mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datapunter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? AJ, still love ya darling, you just get me going sometimes. FelipeMassa, Good luck with your venture, however, if you what to come back here posting how it went be prepared to back up anything you say by showing your actual account. By the nature of your question "anyone done this ?" you are asking people to after-event, fair enough. Just remember that specific after-eventing just doesn't work. ( and that MAY indeed get you banned :lol ) lunatism, I also remember reading somewhere that the ATP is actively removing laptops from the courtside. All part of a series of measures to ensure the sport of tennis is perceived as a "fair" sport. The information exchange agreement with betfair is another one. Will they ban each and everyone who has a go at courtside trading, together with betfair or not ? I don't think so. As long as the sport is perceived as "fair" their job is done, and as long as the Betfair markets are perceived as "equal" betfair is happy. If their are still some individuals making cash using the courtside edge they'll just slip through. Just an afterthought, i suppose those people that have a problem with courtside betting also have a problem with bots running on Betfair. Yet they seem to be all over the place and are generally accepted. Same story, if you cannot accept there are bots working faster than you, limit your betting to your mates in the pub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? If I'd taken some action I guess I could see your point. I didn't. All I did was state my view, rather bluntly for sure, and cast it up for discussion if we considered this a legitimate method of betting? Apprently we do and the in running betting market is much more dog eat dog than I ever realised. I consider "courtsiding" as immoral, it impacts on the integrity of the betting market for the vast majority of punters. Whoever, just my personal view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datapunter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Apprently we do That's my point, WE don't, and WE should't, there is no such thing as a WE opinion. WE , as in the group formed by all visiting this thread, have no specific point of view. There are different people with different opinions, they can all be voiced with equal consideration. I do agree that on a moral level it's not excactly an honourable activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? I consider "courtsiding" as immoral, it impacts on the integrity of the betting market for the vast majority of punters. Whoever, just my personal view. Got to agree with AJ on this point. PL is supposed to be a community where we all share ideas, systems, picks, selections, ideas and whatnot that are for the good of the community against our "common enemy" the bookie (i hate calling the bookie "the enemy", since i've had so much junk mail saying "kill the bookie", "make your bookie bleed" etc...but beside the point), now obviously when somebody comes out and says that they are suggesting we lay a certain market, that punters (maybe even folks from our community) will lose money, and everyone who uses betfair should aware that there are people betting either side, and instead of the bookie losing money, it is a person similar to yourself, who needs/wants the money just as much as you do, so look at it like that, and it's "level" terms so to speak (aside from the fact that if you have stats and are well informed, you are at an advantage, or if you're betting to value, you'll win overall). Now, as a betting community, i'll make a bold statement and say we're not stupid. By this, i'm referring to the fact that when we use betfair, we *know* that there are people out there doing things (like courtsiding) that most of us would consider immoral, whether it be with seconds advantage or more than that - we really should *know* that it happens, because score updates can't be realtime realtime, and there will always be a delay. But knowing that this happens (where somebody is exploiting that delay for their own benefit), and discussing it with a view to aiding somebody to acheive that goal, is (in my OPINION) immoral. After all, by doing this, you're not only saying it's ok (which again in my OPINION...it doesn't happen to be ok), but you'll be putting a lot of our community members out of pocket, not because of the skill of a system, or a solid selection process, but because they are doing something they should be able to do. Who would want to bet "fair" on a tennis market when they know that not only could courtsiding take place but that there are places (such as Punters Lounge if FelipeMassa is getting the help he wants) that will provide the help you need to get started? Nobody with sense, either people will stop betting on tennis altogether, or they will join the "courtsiding revolution", and in my opinion, this can't be good for tennis..... ...and it definately can't be good for Punters Lounge. Datapunter, you're right - one opinion can't stand for the whole of PL, but one opinion unchallenged can give the impression that it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datapunter Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Well said, but now we're entering into the question " What is Punters Lounge ? " , a different discussion altogether. I operate from the context that Punters Lounge is a reflection of punters as a whole and there should be room for every type of punter, regardless of my personal view on things. Others may have PL as a different context. (althou can't be too different) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? Well said, but now we're entering into the question " What is Punters Lounge ? " , a different discussion altogether. I operate from the context that Punters Lounge is a reflection of punters as a whole and there should be room for every type of punter, regardless of my personal view on things. Others may have PL as a different context. (althou can't be too different) Good Point....maybe we should start a new discussion, have a vote on it...i'd be interested to see what the masses think of PL. But (grudgingly) you're right - we shouldn't exclude any topic because of its morals (of lack of), but discussing something that could potentially hurt the community, what would we do with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushian Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? A couple of random thoughts here and there: First of all, although it's something that I wouldn't be doing, I cannot understand how anyone can judge whether coutsiding is immoral or not. From previous posts, my understanding is that people using betting exchanges are already aware that other fellow punters are using methods which give them an edge (be it a few additional seconds due to courtsiding or automated bots, advanced statistics, or even inside information potentially). Yet they are still willing to bet on the exchanges while nobody is forcing them to do so. So as long as it is known that something like this can be done (I don't even know whether it's possible but since there is discussion on this, it might be), it rests on each punter whether he decides to take on the people who are using these techniques. Arguing against courtsiding would be the equivalent of arguing against a succesful punter using whatever it is that makes him succesful. Another point of view is that discussing something like this on PL in fact helps fellow punters who might not have been aware something like this existed (I am sure I'm not the only one who found out about such practice due to this thread) be a bit more wary. So increasing awareness, could in fact save people from losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunatism Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? A couple of random thoughts here and there: First of all, although it's something that I wouldn't be doing, I cannot understand how anyone can judge whether coutsiding is immoral or not. From previous posts, my understanding is that people using betting exchanges are already aware that other fellow punters are using methods which give them an edge (be it a few additional seconds due to courtsiding or automated bots, advanced statistics, or even inside information potentially). Yet they are still willing to bet on the exchanges while nobody is forcing them to do so. So as long as it is known that something like this can be done (I don't even know whether it's possible but since there is discussion on this, it might be), it rests on each punter whether he decides to take on the people who are using these techniques. Arguing against courtsiding would be the equivalent of arguing against a succesful punter using whatever it is that makes him succesful. Another point of view is that discussing something like this on PL in fact helps fellow punters who might not have been aware something like this existed (I am sure I'm not the only one who found out about such practice due to this thread) be a bit more wary. So increasing awareness, could in fact save people from losses. sorry, can't agree with your two points there mate: 1) this is completely different from other types of betting that we're suggesting on PL, because when we suggest a type of bet on PL, we usually are posting our selections. Eg, i post lay Arsenal v Tottenham, now it's upto you if you want to back Arsenal, but at least you know i'm saying i dont think they'll win.....but with courtsiding, EVERY tennis market could be a victim of this. And sure, it happens - but it happening, and it being encouraged by a community that (i believe, perhaps other dont) is meant to be supporting each other (and not just supporting one or two people in their quests to take money from everybody else in the comminity who is active on that market) is different. The only way that (after encouraging this kind of debate) this could be comparable to other types of betting that have their selections posted on here, is if the courtsider wrote on here which match they would be courtsiding! And that wont happen.... Stats heads, bots, tipsters, super systems, professional gamblers - all of these (well, except the last one) anybody could make use of them. Buy a bot (not too expensive), subscribe to a tipster (usually a bit expensive, but if they are good, you'll make your money anyway), learn how to manipulate statistics (takes time, not usually much cash at all, just patience), super systems (find one on a forum, follow it, make one using the newly acquired stats knowledge)....to me, all of these are similar....then there is courtsiding, whcih seems (to me) to be completely outside of the normal realms of betting advantages - if you do it correctly, I would think you CAN'T lose). (just trying to highlight that it is NOT the same, and therefore it is NOT the same as arguing against a successful punter) 2) this discussion is not about how to protect yourself from courtsiding, it's about how much money you can make from courtsiding. All this discussion will do, is encourage people to do it. The best reaction you can get from something like this, is like what I posted earlier, and people just dont bet on the tennis full stop (which wont happen), even if it was just people in PL who didn't bet on the tennis - at least they wouldnt be taking money from our community. I'm not one of those who believe that telling people how to do something highly debatable is the best method to teach others protect themselves against it. Take this very true example (although figures might be slightly exaggerated) : Do you think that teaching millions how to become hackers (by making websites that teach people how to do it and give them the tools for the job) is a worthwhile thing in order to alert a few organisations to their methods? Telling people courtsiding is about is one thing, providing them with information and wetting their appetite for it is something else entirely. All i was saying, is that we should be helping the community,and I can't see how providing information to a handful of people who are so hell bent on exploiting the seconds delays so that they can make profit is going to do anything but take money away from our community. Im sure the best way to inform somebody that no matter what they do, they will lose money in tennis from courtsiding, is to tell them they will lose money from tennis in courtsiding, not to encourage somebody to take money from them (through courtsiding) and then they realise after. But hey, this is NOT my market. I rarely bet on tennis, i'm not a betfair expert, and i dont claim to know anything more than anybody else on it. This is a forum where anybody can talk about what they like, and FelipeMassa has taken a big step in introducing himself as a potential courtsider (potentially enjoying your tennis money put into betfair, one day in the future)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushian Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: How much money to make with courtsiding one tennis tournament? sorry, can't agree with your two points there mate: 1) this is completely different from other types of betting that we're suggesting on PL, because when we suggest a type of bet on PL, we usually are posting our selections. Eg, i post lay Arsenal v Tottenham, now it's upto you if you want to back Arsenal, but at least you know i'm saying i dont think they'll win.....but with courtsiding, EVERY tennis market could be a victim of this. And sure, it happens - but it happening, and it being encouraged by a community that (i believe, perhaps other dont) is meant to be supporting each other (and not just supporting one or two people in their quests to take money from everybody else in the comminity who is active on that market) is different. The only way that (after encouraging this kind of debate) this could be comparable to other types of betting that have their selections posted on here, is if the courtsider wrote on here which match they would be courtsiding! And that wont happen.... Stats heads, bots, tipsters, super systems, professional gamblers - all of these (well, except the last one) anybody could make use of them. Buy a bot (not too expensive), subscribe to a tipster (usually a bit expensive, but if they are good, you'll make your money anyway), learn how to manipulate statistics (takes time, not usually much cash at all, just patience), super systems (find one on a forum, follow it, make one using the newly acquired stats knowledge)....to me, all of these are similar....then there is courtsiding, whcih seems (to me) to be completely outside of the normal realms of betting advantages - if you do it correctly, I would think you CAN'T lose). (just trying to highlight that it is NOT the same, and therefore it is NOT the same as arguing against a successful punter) Let me stress that I am most definitely not encouraging doing something like this. And my opinion is that discussing this issue here should not be perceived as encouragment for anyone trying it. However, lunatism, although I see your point that if someone actively advertises the fact that he is courtsiding a specific match (something that as you state would not happen anyway) people would have been suitably warned, I fail to understand your other argument where you state that courtsiding is different to the other methods of obtaining an edge. The way I understand it, it gives you some additional time, in the same manner that an automated bot would give you additional seconds. That's an edge in terms of time. Understanding things about value betting, randomness, and statistics in general, may give a stats punter an edge on the average punter in terms of probability. Being able to handle huge amounts of data and manipulating computer power may also give you an edge, etc. Coming from an obscure country, with obscure leagues and knowing for example that the star striker of a team has the flu, would also give you an edge. It rests on those betting in these markets to bet only when they know that they are getting a fair price. I personally would never bet for example on some obscure league as I know that there would be other people having more information on that particular league and therefore probably getting my money. In the same manner, I would never place live bets on tennis matches on things such as points, as I (now) know that people are courtsiding hence I would be expected to lose in the long run. 2) this discussion is not about how to protect yourself from courtsiding, it's about how much money you can make from courtsiding. All this discussion will do, is encourage people to do it. The best reaction you can get from something like this, is like what I posted earlier, and people just dont bet on the tennis full stop (which wont happen), even if it was just people in PL who didn't bet on the tennis - at least they wouldnt be taking money from our community. I'm not one of those who believe that telling people how to do something highly debatable is the best method to teach others protect themselves against it. Take this very true example (although figures might be slightly exaggerated) : Do you think that teaching millions how to become hackers (by making websites that teach people how to do it and give them the tools for the job) is a worthwhile thing in order to alert a few organisations to their methods? Telling people courtsiding is about is one thing, providing them with information and wetting their appetite for it is something else entirely. All i was saying, is that we should be helping the community,and I can't see how providing information to a handful of people who are so hell bent on exploiting the seconds delays so that they can make profit is going to do anything but take money away from our community. Im sure the best way to inform somebody that no matter what they do, they will lose money in tennis from courtsiding, is to tell them they will lose money from tennis in courtsiding, not to encourage somebody to take money from them (through courtsiding) and then they realise after. But hey, this is NOT my market. I rarely bet on tennis, i'm not a betfair expert, and i dont claim to know anything more than anybody else on it. This is a forum where anybody can talk about what they like, and FelipeMassa has taken a big step in introducing himself as a potential courtsider (potentially enjoying your tennis money put into betfair, one day in the future)..... Although this is not really the point that I was trying to make, I would like to add that on the hackers issue, I think that I have read somewhere (I'll try to find it if needed) that big organisations have been employing hackers to improve their security systems. So, although I would agree with you that we shouldn't be teaching millions of peoples how to become hackers, organisations whose secutiry is at stake (in the same manner as unaware punters whose money is at stake) should be informed that such methods exist and therefore should take actions to protect themselves (which they try to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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