Coolers - lets discuss strategy

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

I'm not sure if I played this hand correctly so thought I'd open it up for discussion. Capa00 was soon to be in the blinds and the previous hand had just lost most of his chips, hence his range of hands he could shove with was quite wide. What concerned me was the call from Jhedman. Had it been the bubble I would have happily called and checked it down, but with the high possiblity of over cards on the flop I felt I had to fold or shove. Ignore the fact that I won the hand - was I right to shove?

If you do play the hand, you probably want to shove and either get HU, or create a side pot, calling here is not a good play, so shoving was better:ok I am undecided on whether you should have shoved - and even though I am trying to ignore the HH it is there! best to only post the PF action methinks that way we can't be swayed by the result (however subtlely that maybe). Will have a thunk and get back to you - I am erring towards folding as a gut reaction but big blinds and too many to go to the money might make this a reasonable play :unsure. Damo

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy The HH doesn't show you what Jhedman had which I feel is the important player here. If Capa00 had AA then so be it was my thinking, it wouldn't have been the end of things. However it Jhedman had AA it would have been a completely different hand. As it happens Jhedman told me his hand (just before calling me an idiot - maybe I'm being sensitive, hence wondering if I played it well or not?)

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

So you're attempting to keep people out of the pot ? Let's assume you get flat called here. What do you do when someone bets the flop ? Fold with 30 chips and be forced in with your 30 chips from the small blind ? I think not.

Sorry,missed this. I'll put my last 30 chips in if anybody forces me to. But there's virtually no downside to saving my 30 chips: if I win this hand, then I'll almost certainly cash whether or not I put in the last 30 chips. But several good things might happen if I save the 30 chips. Another player raising preflop to 900 to put me all-in might make the player who was going to beat me decide to fold. A player betting on the flop might knock out the player who was going to beat me with a runner-runner flush (or whatever). Or the other players might let me keep my 30 chips (as they did), and I might get lucky and survive the blinds to have a decent chance of cashing (as I didn't :cry).

[aldric]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Im starting to lose my confidence with coolers and am wondering if playing uber tight is the way to go.... Anyway, would you have shoved in this situation?? This is something I would do most of the time and its amazing how often I seem to be getting called with rubbish (obviously my cards are rubbish too!). ***** Hand 1337807254 ***** 150.00/300.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 26 November 2008 22:47:20 Cooler (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: fifisch (2630.00) Seat 2: CayteTano (1630.00) Seat 3: Marquit0 (2723.00) Seat 4: Fitopower (1420.00) Seat 5: djampi (1460.00) Seat 6: eurostyle (2148.00) Seat 7: pl--aldric (1050.00) Seat 8: Unknown (0.00) Seat 9: Unknown (0.00) Seat 10: Lourenzzz (1939.00) pl--aldric post SB 150.00 Lourenzzz post BB 300.00 ** Deal ** fifisch [N/A, N/A] CayteTano [N/A, N/A] Marquit0 [N/A, N/A] Fitopower [N/A, N/A] djampi [N/A, N/A] eurostyle [N/A, N/A] pl--aldric [8c, 6s] Lourenzzz [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** fifisch Fold CayteTano Fold Marquit0 Fold Fitopower Fold djampi Fold eurostyle Fold pl--aldric All-in 1050.00 Lourenzzz Call 1050.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [Kd, 10s, 2h] *** Turn(Board): *** : [Kd, 10s, 2h, 4c] *** River(Board): *** : [Kd, 10s, 2h, 4c, Kc] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2100.00 fifisch Fold Win: 0.00 CayteTano Fold Win: 0.00 Marquit0 Fold Win: 0.00 Fitopower Fold Win: 0.00 djampi Fold Win: 0.00 eurostyle Fold Win: 0.00 pl--aldric [8c, 6s] Pair of kings Win: 0.00 Lourenzzz [8s, 9d] Pair of kings , nine kicker Win: 2100.00

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Looking like a marginal shove..... http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=300&sb=150&ante=0&structure=0.2%2C0.2%2C0.2%2C0.2%2C0.2&s1=2630&s2=1630&s3=2723&s4=1420&s5=1460&s6=2148&s7=1050&s8=1939&s9=

SB			77.4%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J4o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 96o+ 82s+ 85o+ 73s+ 75o+ 63s+ 65o 52s+ 54o 42s+
	BB		46.3%, 22+ Kx+ Q3s+ Q6o+ J7s+ J8o+ T8s+

though having passed through the blinds, and quite a few stacks feeling the pressure, a fold probably isnt a bad decision....

[aldric]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Looking like a marginal shove..... http://www.holdemresources.net/hr/sngs/icmcalculator.html?action=calculate&bb=300&sb=150&ante=0&structure=0.2%2C0.2%2C0.2%2C0.2%2C0.2&s1=2630&s2=1630&s3=2723&s4=1420&s5=1460&s6=2148&s7=1050&s8=1939&s9=

SB			77.4%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J4o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 96o+ 82s+ 85o+ 73s+ 75o+ 63s+ 65o 52s+ 54o 42s+
	BB		46.3%, 22+ Kx+ Q3s+ Q6o+ J7s+ J8o+ T8s+

though having passed through the blinds, and quite a few stacks feeling the pressure, a fold probably isnt a bad decision....

You would seriously consider folding? I would have zero fold equity if I let the blinds come round to me next time..... If I was in the BB my calling range would have been AA - JJ.... MAYBE AK.

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I didn't pass comment on what I would actually have done in that situation :tongue2 Looking at it now with the help of tools, I dont think there is a significant difference between shoving and folding - basically it probably doesn't matter what you do on this hand :tongue2 The calling range of the BB seems significantly wider than you expect. (though doesnt quite stretch to 98o :tongue2)

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Call ? PokerStars Game #22520386961: Tournament #124130418, $5.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2008/12/01 1:45:33 ET Table '124130418 1' 10-max Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: wolleworld (1455 in chips) Seat 2: Gaptratten (2190 in chips) Seat 3: asjohnstone (2005 in chips) Seat 4: asibesanh (1800 in chips) Seat 5: Geauwanna (465 in chips) Seat 6: CharizardGO (3120 in chips) Seat 7: OHlibrarian (1270 in chips) Seat 8: Timmar92 (1390 in chips) Seat 10: ! ff0xx (1305 in chips) wolleworld: posts the ante 10 Gaptratten: posts the ante 10 asjohnstone: posts the ante 10 asibesanh: posts the ante 10 Geauwanna: posts the ante 10 CharizardGO: posts the ante 10 OHlibrarian: posts the ante 10 Timmar92: posts the ante 10 ! ff0xx: posts the ante 10 Timmar92: posts small blind 50 ! ff0xx: posts big blind 100 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [7s 7h] wolleworld: folds Gaptratten: folds asjohnstone: raises 500 to 600 asibesanh: folds Geauwanna: folds CharizardGO: calls 600 OHlibrarian: folds Timmar92: folds ! ff0xx: folds *** FLOP *** [Jc 8d 6h] asjohnstone: checks CharizardGO: checks *** TURN *** [Jc 8d 6h] [9h] asjohnstone: checks CharizardGO: checks *** RIVER *** [Jc 8d 6h 9h] [7d] asjohnstone: checks CharizardGO: bets 2510 and is all-in asjohnstone: ????

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy It's a tough one but I think I'd call. If he had the 10 then surely he'd put in a minimum bet or similar to get a call. The shove implies he doesn't want a call, he's seen you check it all the way down and believes you can't call a shove.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Call ?

For me, probably yes, he has checked behind you twice when he had a chance to bet and on the river on a straight drawing board he shoves? if he has a made hand why not value bet here? Call and be gutted when he shows trip 8's...... Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

If you do play the hand, you probably want to shove and either get HU, or create a side pot, calling here is not a good play, so shoving was better:ok I am undecided on whether you should have shoved - and even though I am trying to ignore the HH it is there! best to only post the PF action methinks that way we can't be swayed by the result (however subtlely that maybe). Will have a thunk and get back to you - I am erring towards folding as a gut reaction but big blinds and too many to go to the money might make this a reasonable play :unsure. Damo

I have had a thunk and I think shoving is a bad play here, you have to be 80-90% certain that Jhedman folds if you shove as you don't want a call with 88, you are probably racing agianst the short stack shove and also racing against Jhedman as well. You obviously need to win the race against Jhedman to stay in, but if you shove and Jhedman folds and you lose the race against shortie you have quadrupled him up and made him more of a threat. Calling is still bad IMHO but after thinking about it is better than shoving as it gives you a chance to knock out shortie with only risking 400 chips and potentially winning a nice pot. So with two bad choices the only choice left is to fold, which is what I now think you should have done. Fold 80% Call 15% Shove 5% Very nice post, had to really think about this :ok:ok:ok Damo

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I think I open fold pre flop, or make a far smaller raise if I do come in - maybe 2.5xBB - not liking the 6xBB pre flop raise at all ....

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

For me, probably yes, he has checked behind you twice when he had a chance to bet and on the river on a straight drawing board he shoves? if he has a made hand why not value bet here? Call and be gutted when he shows trip 8's...... Damo

My exact thinking, I called and he showed AKs He went off on a mega rant, so I explained to him the push indicated weakness not strength and if he'd bet 500 I'd have folded. He didn't get it at all......

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

My exact thinking, I called and he showed AKs He went off on a mega rant, so I explained to him the push indicated weakness not strength and if he'd bet 500 I'd have folded. He didn't get it at all......

HAHAHAHA :clap:clap:clap You should have just said sorry :rollin I find it best not to educate the fish:eek:eek Nice thinking, nice call, VERY NICE RESULT!:ok Damo

[billy the punter]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy One for the "how bad was this play" section: ***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 449558765 ***** NL Texas Hold'em $99 Buy-in + $9.90 Entry Fee, Level:4 Blinds(50/100-(no ante)) - Monday, December 01, 19:01:12 GMT 2008 D2N Turbo NL Hold'em $108.90 #2400252 Table 1 6-max (Real Money) Seat 3 is the button Total number of active players : 4 Seat 1: power8 ( 980 ) Seat 3: Harold Boom ( 895 ) Seat 4: varela ( 3,130 ) Seat 5: squares ( 995 ) Tourney Level:4 Blinds(50/100-(no ante)) varela posts small blind [50] squares posts big blind [100] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Harold Boom [ Qd, Jh ] power8 folds Harold Boom goes all-in Harold Boom raises to [895] varela calls [845] squares calls [795] ** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, Kc, Qs ] varela bets [100] squares calls [100] squares goes all-in ** Showdown ** Harold Boom shows [ Qd, Jh ] varela shows [ 6h, Ah ] squares shows [ Ac, 7c ] ** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ] ** Dealing River ** [ 2d ] ** Hand Conclusion ** squares wins 200 from side pot #1 with high card Ace Harold Boom wins 2,685 from main pot with a pair of Queens ************ Game 449558765 ends ************ How bad is the call from squares here? I mean, if the all in short stack is very short, minute, then it can pay to team up and go 3-handed to knock him out. But to treble up a fair sized short stack is ludicrous. Like I've said before, keep 'em lean if you haven't got a strong hand. The A7 call is probably the worst call I've seen since I've been playing in these.

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy He did have a draw to the nut flush and clear odds to call, it's the call with A6 from varela that I'd don't understand.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

He did have a draw to the nut flush and clear odds to call' date=' it's the call with A6 from varela that I'd don't understand.[/quote'] I don't think it was the post-flop call Billy was questioning: that's automatic. Pre-flop, if varela is going to beat "Harold Boom" then it doesn't matter what squares does, so we may as well assume he isn't going to. If squares folds and varela loses, then there'll be two stacks of around 2000 and two of around 1000, and squares would probably have around a 65% chance of making the top 3 (at a guess) So for it to be right for squares to call, he pretty much needs more than a 65% chance of beating "Harold Boom" if Harold beats varela, which I'm sure he doesn't have. So I agree it's a bad call, though I've seen a lot worse!

[billy the punter]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Yes it was indeed the preflop call I meant. I'm not crazy about either call to be honest, but the A7 is far worse. slapdash explained it well. If he passes - I could lose and he cashes. If he passes - I could win and he is still in decent position to cash. No brainer. What I lucker f*cker I was to get a treble up (and basically a given cash) in this coup. :lol

[billy the punter]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Here's another from earlier. Just to make some points regarding the understand of coolers and how other understand them. Most don't really understand them, they either play too loose (like a normal sng) or too tight. In order to maximize profit you MUST know how your opponents treat these games. My opponent here Ooohmatron is a decent player - well he is a winner at SnG and Double or Nothings. He understands the concept of them. He understands when to push, his timing is correct etc. ***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 449568870 ***** NL Texas Hold'em $99 Buy-in + $9.90 Entry Fee, Level:4 Blinds(50/100-(no ante)) - Monday, December 01, 19:23:49 GMT 2008 D2N Turbo NL Hold'em $108.90 #2400304 Table 1 6-max (Real Money) Seat 5 is the button Total number of active players : 5 Seat 1: Harold Boom ( 995 ) Seat 2: Ooohmatron ( 820 ) Seat 3: varela ( 1,975 ) Seat 4: ThinkThink ( 585 ) Seat 5: santtu123 ( 1,625 ) Tourney Level:4 Blinds(50/100-(no ante)) Harold Boom posts small blind [50] Ooohmatron posts big blind [100] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Harold Boom [ Kd, Ks ] varela folds ThinkThink folds santtu123 folds Harold Boom calls [50] Ooohmatron goes all-in Ooohmatron raises to [820] Harold Boom calls [720] ** Showdown ** Harold Boom shows [ Kd, Ks ] Ooohmatron shows [ 2h, Qd ] ** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, Qh, Jd ] ** Dealing Turn ** [ 9c ] ** Dealing River ** [ 4h ] ** Hand Conclusion ** Harold Boom wins 1,640 from main pot with two pair, Kings and Fours ************ Game 449568870 ends ************ Now it's folded around to me in the SB and I make up the SB with KK, I wouldn't have done thing against a lesser opponent. But Ooohmatron is different - he knows the "correct" way to play these. Therefore I knew he would push with ANY TWO CARDS in the BB. He is correct to, he is smallish (4th) stack and I'm in 3rd pos. The plan worked a treat and it's a clear example of knowing your opponent, or more importantly knowing how he thinks.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Just to make some points regarding the understand of coolers and how other understand them. Most don't really understand them, they either play too loose (like a normal sng) or too tight. In order to maximize profit you MUST know how your opponents treat these games. Now it's folded around to me in the SB and I make up the SB with KK, I wouldn't have done thing against a lesser opponent. But Ooohmatron is different - he knows the "correct" way to play these. Therefore I knew he would push with ANY TWO CARDS in the BB. He is correct to, he is smallish (4th) stack and I'm in 3rd pos. The plan worked a treat and it's a clear example of knowing your opponent, or more importantly knowing how he thinks.

Seems like a standard play - look weak and hope for the shove and get them to put their chips in the middle for you nice one:ok Damo

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

I don't think it was the post-flop call Billy was questioning: that's automatic. Pre-flop, if varela is going to beat "Harold Boom" then it doesn't matter what squares does, so we may as well assume he isn't going to. If squares folds and varela loses, then there'll be two stacks of around 2000 and two of around 1000, and squares would probably have around a 65% chance of making the top 3 (at a guess) So for it to be right for squares to call, he pretty much needs more than a 65% chance of beating "Harold Boom" if Harold beats varela, which I'm sure he doesn't have. So I agree it's a bad call, though I've seen a lot worse!

I misread it, you're right it's a stinker. My bad.

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy 52 mins or there abouts a real slog. PokerStars Game #22555204534: Tournament #124388435, $100+$4 Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (400/800) - 2008/12/02 9:38:39 ET Table '124388435 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button Seat 1: Waihona (2595 in chips) Seat 3: nsmyther (560 in chips) Seat 4: wodimello (30 in chips) Seat 6: dapunisher1 (35 in chips) Seat 9: carky1 (10920 in chips) Seat 10: As de Trêfle (860 in chips) Waihona: posts the ante 80 nsmyther: posts the ante 80 wodimello: posts the ante 30 and is all-in dapunisher1: posts the ante 35 and is all-in carky1: posts the ante 80 As de Trêfle: posts the ante 80 As de Trêfle: posts small blind 400 Waihona: posts big blind 800 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to nsmyther [3h 9d] nsmyther: folds carky1: calls 800 As de Trêfle: folds Waihona: checks *** FLOP *** [Jc Qd Qh] Waihona: checks carky1: checks *** TURN *** [Jc Qd Qh] [5s] Waihona: checks carky1: checks *** RIVER *** [Jc Qd Qh 5s] [9s] Waihona: checks carky1: checks *** SHOW DOWN *** Waihona: shows [2c 8d] (a pair of Queens) carky1: shows [6h 6c] (two pair, Queens and Sixes) carky1 collected 2180 from side pot-2 dapunisher1: mucks hand carky1 collected 25 from side pot-1 wodimello: mucks hand carky1 collected 180 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 2385 Main pot 180. Side pot-1 25. Side pot-2 2180. | Rake 0 Board [Jc Qd Qh 5s 9s] Seat 1: Waihona (big blind) showed [2c 8d] and lost with a pair of Queens Seat 3: nsmyther folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: wodimello mucked [Ks 4c] Seat 6: dapunisher1 mucked [Ac 4s] Seat 9: carky1 (button) showed [6h 6c] and won (2385) with two pair, Queens and Sixes Seat 10: As de Trêfle (small blind) folded before Flop

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Tightest game i've ever played, 30 hands in still ten players How can the big blind fold this hand for 35 chips more ? Is there any reason I'm missing :unsure PokerStars Game #22607002001: Tournament #124772030, $5.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/12/04 2:16:44 ET Table '124772030 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: sampano (1485 in chips) Seat 2: pattias (200 in chips) Seat 3: asjohnstone (1405 in chips) Seat 4: max8008 (1730 in chips) Seat 5: martin685 (3765 in chips) Seat 6: emkus69 (1800 in chips) Seat 7: 3vill (860 in chips) Seat 8: BOWBEE2 (805 in chips) Seat 9: 88Sky88 (1135 in chips) Seat 10: ciucastelian (1815 in chips) sampano: posts the ante 15 pattias: posts the ante 15 asjohnstone: posts the ante 15 max8008: posts the ante 15 martin685: posts the ante 15 emkus69: posts the ante 15 3vill: posts the ante 15 BOWBEE2: posts the ante 15 88Sky88: posts the ante 15 ciucastelian: posts the ante 15 88Sky88: posts small blind 75 ciucastelian: posts big blind 150 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [Ad 5h] sampano: folds pattias: raises 35 to 185 and is all-in asjohnstone: folds max8008: folds martin685: folds emkus69: folds 3vill: folds BOWBEE2: folds 88Sky88: folds ciucastelian: folds Uncalled bet (35) returned to pattias pattias collected 525 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 525 | Rake 0 Seat 1: sampano folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: pattias collected (525) Seat 3: asjohnstone folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: max8008 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: martin685 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: emkus69 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: 3vill folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: BOWBEE2 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: 88Sky88 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 10: ciucastelian (big blind) folded before Flop

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

How can the big blind fold this hand for 35 chips more ?Is there any reason I'm missing :unsure

auto check/fold button perhaps? multi-tabling and clicked fold? timed out? Is a womble?:lol Damo

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Is it reasonable for me to force this guy all in here ? PokerStars Game #23144668244: Tournament #128690763, $10.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/12/22 2:08:33 ET Table '128690763 1' 10-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: jta2340 (1355 in chips) Seat 2: threemao (1990 in chips) Seat 6: Jedi BRO (2360 in chips) Seat 7: Adelaide43 (1875 in chips) Seat 8: Aces0903 (2165 in chips) Seat 9: pokerzan-com (2255 in chips) Seat 10: asjohnstone (3000 in chips) jta2340: posts the ante 20 threemao: posts the ante 20 Jedi BRO: posts the ante 20 Adelaide43: posts the ante 20 Aces0903: posts the ante 20 pokerzan-com: posts the ante 20 asjohnstone: posts the ante 20 Jedi BRO: posts small blind 100 Adelaide43: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [Th Td] Aces0903: folds pokerzan-com: folds asjohnstone: raises 600 to 800 jta2340: calls 800 threemao: folds Jedi BRO: folds Adelaide43: folds *** FLOP *** [Kc Kd 2s] asjohnstone: bets 600 Was this ok ?

[staffy]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Correct decision IMO.

[Rebel]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Anyone still playing these, how are ye getting on. Has the play changed over the last 1 1/2 year?

[starshine]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Yes, I am still playing them and I still like them. I don't know why, but it seems to me I am on some sides not as good in them like on others. So for me is best to play them on boss. They seem to be different on Stars or Cake. And it hasn't changed much. Best is still just to sit and wait. After a few experiences where I even lost lots chips with AA and high pairs, with opponent having cards like 63 lol, I now when I could effort fold mainly when only 6 players left. Is no sense in risking anything. But to do so, it is helpful having a lots chips than.

[Rebel]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Played a hand full tonight on stars, they are very tight playing