Coolers - lets discuss strategy

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Personally I'd prefer to call with AKs than shove 23o in that position

What about the option of folding your AKs and winning without playing another hand? (a definite possibility)

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

It's not as complicated as you might imagine - it's well worth working through some calculations yourself to understand it better. All you need is pokerstove' date=' [url']http://www.icmpoker.com/Calculator.aspx and a calculator (or better excel for "what if") I'm not sure it's so much a question of whether we're on the bubble, but more - Aldric is currently in a winning position - if nothing changes he wins, whilst I was in a losing position - if nothing changed, I lost. Aldric was starting out already having about 80% equity - so he's needing a 4-1 advantage to get involved (less what he loses in the blind) - to improve that - and not many hands can hold that kind of advantage - even against any two cards. In contrast (IIRC) my equity was below 50%, so a coin flip can increase my tournament equity.

Time for me to study the two threads further me thinks!

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy This always worried me:

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (3 members and 0 guests)

GotaFancy?, daftpegasus, slapdash

...cos if there's anyone who can find my errors and tell me I'm talking crap, slapdash is the man :loon (I'm not as confident in my calculations as I might give the impression I am ;) However have no idea what might by wrong....

[BillHicks]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I feel there maybe is loads of collusion going on in these double or nothings , does anyone else think that?

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

I feel there maybe is loads of collusion going on in these double or nothings ' date=' does anyone else think that?[/quote'] Apart from people checking it down against a short stack I haven't seen obvious collusion. However they are the type of game where a group of people could probably easily profit with some collusion.

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Whats your opinion on making normal raises when the blinds arent too big and just pushing all in, like if your worrying about bigger stacks behind does that give away the strenght of your hand, or is it when you've a big hand and hope someone comes over the top of you. Plus should you have a set of hand values your willing to shove with depending on your stack size, i.e the smaller your stack the more willing to push bad hands.

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy He didnt need to call here did he. PokerStars Game #22188232079: Tournament #121624231, $100+$4 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2008/11/19 18:37:45 ET Table '121624231 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button Seat 1: ReMMy (2795 in chips) Seat 2: Yiannos AEL (425 in chips) is sitting out Seat 3: manhalll (3360 in chips) Seat 4: JohnSmiley1 (2720 in chips) Seat 5: treemendous (1815 in chips) Seat 7: JasonWhitney (1300 in chips) Seat 8: nsmyther (905 in chips) Seat 9: Vienna Bundy (1680 in chips) ReMMy: posts the ante 25 Yiannos AEL: posts the ante 25 manhalll: posts the ante 25 JohnSmiley1: posts the ante 25 treemendous: posts the ante 25 JasonWhitney: posts the ante 25 nsmyther: posts the ante 25 Vienna Bundy: posts the ante 25 ReMMy: posts small blind 125 Yiannos AEL: posts big blind 250 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to nsmyther [6h 8c] manhalll: folds JohnSmiley1: folds treemendous: folds JasonWhitney: folds nsmyther: raises 500 to 750 Vienna Bundy: folds ReMMy: raises 500 to 1250 Yiannos AEL: folds nsmyther: calls 130 and is all-in Uncalled bet (370) returned to ReMMy *** FLOP *** [Kc As Ac] *** TURN *** [Kc As Ac] [Td] *** RIVER *** [Kc As Ac Td] [Qh] *** SHOW DOWN *** ReMMy: shows [8h 8s] (two pair, Aces and Eights) nsmyther: shows [6h 8c] (a pair of Aces) ReMMy collected 2210 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 2210 | Rake 0 Board [Kc As Ac Td Qh] Seat 1: ReMMy (small blind) showed [8h 8s] and won (2210) with two pair, Aces and Eights Seat 2: Yiannos AEL (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 3: manhalll folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: JohnSmiley1 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: treemendous folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: JasonWhitney folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: nsmyther showed [6h 8c] and lost with a pair of Aces Seat 9: Vienna Bundy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I think it's a good call (or at least not terrible) :unsure But lets crunch the numbers and find out.....

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I'm counting you as all in, and him as last to act (which he is with a sit out after) Equity before the hand: Equity if he folds: Equity if he calls and wins: Equity if he calls and loses: Equity if he calls and splits the pot: No conclusions yet .... just some raw data......

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy ok and this was only the 3rd hand i had a chance to play not sure if that matters.

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Tournament Equity if he folded was 80.4% Tournament equity if you shoved any two cards and he called is 86.9%

	Hand Eqty	Tourn Eqty	ev
Call and win	68.72%	95.10%	65.35%
Call and lose	30.39%	68.40%	20.79%
Call and split	0.90%	84.79%	0.76%
Total	100.01%		86.90%

Tournament equity if you shoved top 50% and he called is 84.6%

	Hand Eqty	Tourn Eqty	ev
Call and win	60.29%	95.10%	57.34%
Call and lose	38.91%	68.40%	26.62%
Call and split	0.80%	84.79%	0.68%
Total	100.00%		84.63%

Tournament equity if you shoved top 25% and he called is 82.72%

	Hand Eqty	Tourn Eqty	ev
Call and win	53.10%	95.10%	50.50%
Call and lose	46.06%	68.40%	31.51%
Call and split	0.84%	84.79%	0.71%
Total	100.00%		82.72%

Tournament equity if you shoved top 10% and he called is 80.08%

	Hand Eqty	Tourn Eqty	ev
Call and win	43.00%	95.10%	40.89%
Call and lose	55.83%	68.40%	38.19%
Call and split	1.18%	84.79%	1.00%
Total	100.01%		80.08%

So I think it's a clear call for him - he needs to put you on a range of about top 10% before he can think about folding, and you're shoving way lighter than that.

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy surely someone could invent a tracker for coolers on players and when you play with the same people over and over again ud know what hands are ev call push fold in every situation because a lot of people play these the whole time and they seem to jus come down to math weather you'll be a winner or a loser.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

He didnt need to call here did he.

It's a call everytime for me. You could be shoving in position with a wide range of hands and he only has to put another 750 chips in the middle. Even if he loses he's in a good position to still cash in the game. It also looks like you're simply making a move on the sit out BB, hence he can put you on an even wider range of hands. You're a little unfortunate that he has a hand worth calling with, but I've seen people call with a lot less in similar situations. When playing these and looking to shove I like to have something to shove with even if it's only Ace high, K10, etc.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

This is an invented situation, but similar to something that came up yesterday. Six players left. You're UTG with 630 chips. The button is also short-stacked with 900 chips. The other four players are all somewhere in the 3000-4000 range. Blinds are 150/300, but will be going up to 200/400 next hand (when it's your BB). You're dealt AQs. What do you do?

BAH thats an awful question :lol you shove and get at least one caller (the BB), but probably more as another large stack might just call as well, or you fold and hope to survive your BB when one of the big stacks is probably likely to put you AI. If I had this hand right now in the game I would shove instantly, but I believe this is the wrong play and you should fold instead. Very nice question :ok Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

What would you do? Bubble and the villain who shoved has been playing lots of hands and showing some bluffs previously? PL-Aldric...........................................???????

Fold Damo

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

surely someone could invent a tracker for coolers on players and when you play with the same people over and over again ud know what hands are ev call push fold in every situation because a lot of people play these the whole time and they seem to jus come down to math weather you'll be a winner or a loser.

NLHE STTs are pretty much a "solved" game. Coolers are just a slight variation of the standard STTs - someone who has live access to ICM information in coolers should crush these :unsure

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

This is an invented situation, but similar to something that came up yesterday. Six players left. You're UTG with 630 chips. The button is also short-stacked with 900 chips. The other four players are all somewhere in the 3000-4000 range. Blinds are 150/300, but will be going up to 200/400 next hand (when it's your BB). You're dealt AQs. What do you do?

I have been giving this some serious thought to winning this "type of hand and chip stack" against as few people as possible (apart from the min raise or shove). I am wondering if limping is a better play for the following reasons. It's the unexpected move, especially if the players are perceptive/know the strategy, What does limping suggest to folks? (answer quick before carrying on reading :loon) That you have a premium hand and want more than one caller (the BB) to get as many chips as possible perhaps?. So what would you do as a mid-biggish stack call or fold? What would you do if you are the SB with a mid stack, make up the BB? Scenario one: everyone else folds and the BB checks - you then bet/call the flop regardless of the cards. Flops miss 2/3rds of the time so against only the BB you have a good chance of taking it down unopposed. Scenario Two: the SB makes up and the BB checks, you again bet if checked to you, or play against one of them (taking your chances). If the SB bets and the BB calls, then fold your hand and let them play against each other. Scenario 3: You are raised by a bigger stack PF and everyone else folds - you call and take your chances Scenario 4: more than one other bigger stack limps after you creating a family pot of 4 or more, three things might happen:- a) You hit the flop hard, bet out and get called (hopefully). b) You miss the flop but hopefully at least 2 of the others have some thing, bet and get too embroiled in the flop/turn/river to lay their hands down and either cripple themselves/get knocked out c) everyone checks it down, well you still have some chips left to pay for your BB so :hope Is this another viable strategy? Against one player you are AI PF if they raise you after limping, or AI on the flop against 1 or 2 players if they check it to you regardless of the cards. Essentially you are committing yourself to the cards and being AI at some point but possibly not pre-flop. Just wondering Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

NLHE STTs are pretty much a "solved" game. Coolers are just a slight variation of the standard STTs - someone who has live access to ICM information in coolers should crush these :unsure

if you can understand all that stuff. GaF any chance you can do a step-by-step guide to understanding what those fancy tables mean - a real idiots guide please?. I know that it is a ball-ache, but it would be very helpful Cheers Damo

[Fonzie14]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

if you can understand all that stuff. GaF anychance you can do a step-by-step guide to understanding what those fancy tables mean - a real idiots guide please?. I know that it is a ball-ache, but it would be very helpful Cheers Damo

Well said that man. :clap:clap:clap

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Eeeek!!! I dont mind doing whatever I can to try and help PLrs get their heads around this, however I lack a bit of confidence when it comes to "teaching" it to others :unsure I dont think my understanding/knowledge of it is 100% (hence I panic every time I see Slapdash in the thread :tongue2) and that makes it tough to explain with clarity and precision - I am certain that there will be better sources of information out there than what I can come up with :unsure Though maybe not the in specific relation to coolers. So what I'd propose is finding external sources to understand the common aspects and then I will try and put some explanation into how I'm applying that to coolers - how does that sound? I'll look around for information to reference over the weekend - the way I see it is that there are 3 steps to ensure you understand pretty well (and each is a prerequisite to the next): 1) Expected Value (ev) 2) STT ICM 3) ICM theory applied to coolers I suggest we work through 1 and 2 together (ensuring everyone understands 1 before moving on to 2) from external sources and then work through 3 creating our own reference material. Does that sound reasonable?

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

So what I'd propose is finding external sources to understand the common aspects and then I will try and put some explanation into how I'm applying that to coolers - how does that sound? I'll look around for information to reference over the weekend - the way I see it is that there are 3 steps to ensure you understand pretty well (and each is a prerequisite to the next): 1) Expected Value (ev) 2) STT ICM 3) ICM theory applied to coolers I suggest we work through 1 and 2 together (ensuring everyone understands 1 before moving on to 2) from external sources and then work through 3 creating our own reference material. Does that sound reasonable?

is this a good way to do it? pick a hand and post an ICM table like you have used before with tags showing us what each column means and a basic if it is above this figure it is positive to play, if it is below that figure it is negative to play then post another table showing the next hand and do the same again then post a third table showing the next hand showing the same again that way we can see small changes to the tables and the ICM calcs. This I think would aid us to see a series of hands evolve and show the steps on the tables to give us a better understanding of what the numbers are showing. What I am particularly interested in is how we could use the info in a 'live' game and make a snap decision based on findings. I think that post game analysis with pokerstove and opinions is vital, but something that aids you in your 15 sec decision time in a hand is critical. Would the ICM calculator do that for you? I am prepared to wait and let the maths guru's among you sit and discuss first rather than expecting you to do it all this weekend:ok It is a tall order and most appreciated, so take you time and do the basics first (like posting the table and telling us what each column and figures are showing!) Damo

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy In terms of the invented situation with Aq. I push, becuase the other choice play playing from the SB with 230 chips with a more than likely worse hand is dreadful. I think the question really is, can I expect to fold both hands and hope the other guy gets knocked out during his blinds and let me cash with 30 chips ? The answer to that (at least on stars) is o]no, he'll fold ATC and even if he pushes he'll most likely not be called. With 30 chips i'm a dead man walking and the table will (correctly) work together to kill me. so, it's a easy push, although the outcome is likley to disapointing

[staffy]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

In terms of the invented situation with Aq. I push, becuase the other choice play playing from the SB with 230 chips with a more than likely worse hand is dreadful. I think the question really is, can I expect to fold both hands and hope the other guy gets knocked out during his blinds and let me cash with 30 chips ? The answer to that (at least on stars) is o]no, he'll fold ATC and even if he pushes he'll most likely not be called. With 30 chips i'm a dead man walking and the table will (correctly) work together to kill me. so, it's a easy push, although the outcome is likley to disapointing

Agree totally AJ.

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

What I am particularly interested in is how we could use the info in a 'live' game and make a snap decision based on findings. I think that post game analysis with pokerstove and opinions is vital, but something that aids you in your 15 sec decision time in a hand is critical.

I'm not aware of any tools that will help you with cooler ICM analysis in 15 seconds - with the examples I've posted you can see that the time between the first post and last post is about 30 minutes - I've no chance of replicating it within 15 seconds. I might be able to create an AHK script that could use the tools to do it that quickly - not on Boss (I cannot get AHK to read live Hand information) but maybe on Pokerstars - however (without having checked) I'm pretty sure it would be against Stars T&C so wouldnt want to waste my time doing it. More than happy to go step by step through the process I do and explain what I can - however anyone who wishes to interpret the results properly must understand at least basically, concepts of ev and ICM first.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

In terms of the invented situation with Aq. I push, becuase the other choice play playing from the SB with 230 chips with a more than likely worse hand is dreadful.

Agree totally AJ.

I refer the honourable gentlemen to post #249.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

More than happy to go step by step through the process I do and explain what I can - however anyone who wishes to interpret the results properly must understand at least basically, concepts of ev and ICM first.

excellent:ok - please can we start with "what all these numbers mean on the big tables I keep posting in my analysis posts" Cheers:ok Damo

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy So you're attempting to keep people out of the pot ? Let's assume you get flat called here. What do you do when someone bets the flop ? Fold with 30 chips and be forced in with your 30 chips from the small blind ? I think not.

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

excellent:ok - please can we start with "what all these numbers mean on the big tables I keep posting in my analysis posts" Cheers:ok Damo

Lets start a seperate thread for this :ok I'll copy some posts over ....

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

So you're attempting to keep people out of the pot ? Let's assume you get flat called here. What do you do when someone bets the flop ? Fold with 30 chips and be forced in with your 30 chips from the small blind ? I think not.

are you asking me or slapdash? :unsure In both cases we are calling! we are trying to figure out a way to win the chips with as few as players as possible in the pot to better our chances of that win. In Slap's example he min-raises, hoping that someone might reraise to isolate and so he calls HU, or everyone folds and he takes the blinds. In my examples, I had a variety of scenarios that might happen and what I would do. Hope this helps:ok Damo

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I'm not sure if I played this hand correctly so thought I'd open it up for discussion. ***** Hand 1336344945 ***** 150.00/300.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 25 November 2008 21:57:33 Cooler (Real/Tournament) Seat 1: Jhedman (1794.00) Seat 2: Daft Pegas (1607.00) Seat 4: salle55 (1954.00) Seat 6: mi500k (2160.00) Seat 7: vinovinae (1470.00) Seat 8: Confuciusd (4048.00) Seat 9: capa00 (395.00) Seat 10: Gizmok9 (1572.00) mi500k post SB 150.00 vinovinae post BB 300.00 ** Deal ** Jhedman [N/A, N/A] Daft Pegas [:8d:, :8c:] salle55 [N/A, N/A] mi500k [N/A, N/A] vinovinae [N/A, N/A] Confuciusd [N/A, N/A] capa00 [N/A, N/A] Gizmok9 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** Confuciusd Fold capa00 All-in 395.00 Gizmok9 Fold Jhedman Call 395.00 Daft Pegas All-in 1607.00 salle55 Fold mi500k Fold vinovinae Fold Jhedman Fold *** Flop(Board): *** : [9c, Qc, Jc] *** Turn(Board): *** : [9c, Qc, Jc, 3s] *** River(Board): *** : [9c, Qc, Jc, 3s, Js] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1635.00 Jhedman Fold Win: 0.00 Daft Pegas [:8d:, :8c:] Two pair jacks and eights Win: 1635.00 salle55 Fold Win: 0.00 mi500k Fold Win: 0.00 vinovinae Fold Win: 0.00 Confuciusd Fold Win: 0.00 capa00 [Ah, 4c] Pair of jacks Win: 0.00 Gizmok9 Fold Win: 0.00 Capa00 was soon to be in the blinds and the previous hand had just lost most of his chips, hence his range of hands he could shove with was quite wide. What concerned me was the call from Jhedman. Had it been the bubble I would have happily called and checked it down, but with the high possiblity of over cards on the flop I felt I had to fold or shove. Ignore the fact that I won the hand - was I right to shove?