Coolers - lets discuss strategy

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

What do we think the 'correct' strategy is early on' date=' guys? I'm assuming my normal strategy won't work in these (it doesn't in any other SNG's, after all!)[/quote'] My strategy is: FOLD everything except premium PP with which I raise if first to act or call if KK-10 10 - I only reraise with AA at L1 (I might reriase with KK/QQ if I have already lost a few chips (say 300-400 due to a suck out) Play small pairs with position in limped pots (there are alot of limped family pots early levels in the 3-5 euro games) Fold all other cards unless on button/sb and have something that might turn into something better if its only 1 bet or 1/2 bet to call (so high suited connectors, 2 connected broadway, suited Ace etc) I am quite prepared to limp A8s on the button after other limpers and throw away on a A 10 5 flop if there are (close to) pot bets made and called on the flop. I can fold the first 2 levels and still have around 1200-1300 chips at 50/100 with probably 1 or 2 people out and/or 3 stacks with less than 800 chips to beat. I can fold first 3 levels and still have 800-1K in chips and be on the bubble - so sometime between the start of Level 3 and the end of Level 3 I get busy if I have had nowt else all game, and steal some blinds with position to keep my stack closer to the 1K Thats my basic strategy. Hope this helps Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Have no idea if this has already been answered, made a point of not look so as to not influence my call here. Can't think of a single time, even on teh button where I'd made this call. It's an easy lay down. Chances are this early on he's pushing with a monster, best case you're going to be racing with AK / AQ etc. There will be better spots. I'm even folding KK here.

Easy fold for me - though with KK I would need to spend my whole 15 secs thinking about it before I decided what to do (I haven't decided yet:tongue2) Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy What is the ITM percentage requirement to break even in coolers? My maths head just can't get going today. :$:$:$ Damo

[Dodger]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Poor day yesterday going down the aggressive road. Got sick of being called by a whole range of hands. Even though they may have been wrong to call, as detailed here, it happens far too often to be used as an acceptable strategy. Slept on it and I'm convinced you can almost sit-out into the money. So today applying the ''Bruce Lee'' tactic...the art of ''sitting out without sitting out''. Attempting to play absolutely nothing...being delighted to win the BB uncontested and being extremely careful when the blinds are called. Need to play 20 games before deciding if this works so will post when done that. {But when you look down UTG at your KK and think WTF...shove it all in...called and dumped on by AA...just makes you want to chuck the towel in.}

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Definitely :ok I thought this was quite an interesting situation - as it is, I view it as a pretty straightforward fold - all 3 players to act after me could quite reasonably call.......however.......had we been playing anticlockwise instead I think it was a quite straightforward shove - none of the 3 players to act could reasonably call. So same cards, same situation, different stacks give totally different scenarios.

I agree, either of the two shorties might gamble to double up with ATC (especially the BB) - though I think you have enough that the biggie will only call with a 'more than' reasonable hand. Just my thoughts Damo

[Dodger]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

What is the ITM percentage requirement to break even in coolers? My maths head just can't get going today.

55% covers the fees for the games.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

55% covers the fees for the games.

Thank you :ok For some reason I thought it would be more than normal STT's...... (am feeling very stupid now:$:(:eyes) Damo

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I've been reading this thread with interest, but have been busy over the weekend and haven't had time to write a considered response. In some sense, I think there isn't a "correct strategy". I think it depends much more than other forms of poker on how your opponents play. I've played significant numbers (more than 150) of two forms of these. €50 coolers on Boss, where I have about a 63% ITM rate, and level 4 Rounders on Prima (which are effectively $302.50 coolers with no rake), where I have about a 56% ITM rate. But my strategy is a bit different for each. On Boss, even at the €50 level, I think that people tend to play too many hands and especially call too much. This means that people get knocked out and it gets down to the money relatively quickly (its often over before the 200/400 level). I play extremely tight (i.e., usually don't play a hand) until the 50/100 level, and then I pick my spots to shove and pick up the blinds. Typically I find I have to pick up the blinds about 3 or 4 times and I've survived to the money. What I really want is not to be called, and so I try to get an image of not shoving with rubbish. I think its definitely wrong to try to build a stack: you want to shove just enough that you keep your fold equity and little enough that your opponents think you probably have a hand when you do shove. I think stack sizes are more important than position (though that's important, too): it's true that in early position you have to get through more players, but you also tend to get more respect. If I have around 5BB, I'd often rather shove UTG than wait for the blinds to eat my fold equity. In the Rounders, it's a bit different. The players are tougher and much tighter. I've played a few times where it's not been over by the 800/1600 blind level (i.e., the average stack size is less than 2xBB!). This means that you'd have to shove more often to survive to the money, and of course every time you shove, you run the risk of being called by a monster hand (usually AA or KK). But the players here are also much less likely to call even a small raise in the middle stages, so it seems to work to "steal" with something like a 2.5xBB raise when the average stack is around 10-15xBB. It also helps that the player pool is much smaller (typically I'll recognize half the players at the table) and so I have a better idea of which individual players are likely to defend their blinds.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

At the moment I'm moving up when I have 10x Buy Ins - not sure that's sound bankroll management' date=' or particularly scientific, but I feel I'm crushing them so easily, I want to move up faster.....as I get to higher levels I'll probably require a higher bankroll of myself :unsure[/quote'] Just to give some idea: If you started with 10 buy-ins, had a 60% ITM rate, and never dropped down, you'd have a little more than a 10% chance of going broke.

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Just to give some idea: If you started with 10 buy-ins, had a 60% ITM rate, and never dropped down, you'd have a little more than a 10% chance of going broke.

I can live with that ;) In reality it's a lot lot less though - I'm confident I'm greater than 60% (at €3 and €5) and I do drop down if my visible balance is less than 10xBB (so if I have €63, and am 6 tabling, I'll open up 3x€5 tables and then the next 3 tables will be €3 - as I replace tables it will be €3 tables until my balance is back over €50)

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Just to give some idea: If you started with 10 buy-ins, had a 60% ITM rate, and never dropped down, you'd have a little more than a 10% chance of going broke.

In that case I am stepping up from the 3.30's to the 5.50 euro's - have been playing the 'usual' 20-30 buy-ins at least for STT's and whilst multitabling makes it less boring, it is a very slow climb to increase the BR. I'll give the 5.50's a decent run and then make a decision to step up to the 11's after I see what my ITM is. Cheers :ok Damo

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

In that case I am stepping up from the 3.30's to the 5.50 euro's - have been playing the 'usual' 20-30 buy-ins at least for STT's and whilst multitabling makes it less boring, it is a very slow climb to increase the BR. I'll give the 5.50's a decent run and then make a decision to step up to the 11's after I see what my ITM is. Cheers :ok Damo

I've found no difference in the standard between €3, €5 & €10. Stepping up to the €20 one's now.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Following on from my earlier question about JJ v an All in shove in the early stages of a tournament, this hand occured tonight for me: ***** Hand 1295531649 ***** 25.00/50.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 27 October 2008 21:28:07 Cooler (Real/Tournament) Seat 2: poluto (3505.00) Seat 3: feetlovers (1405.00) Seat 4: pieruzzo (1665.00) Seat 5: Daft Pegas (1545.00) Seat 7: Larsen74 (1205.00) Seat 9: wokingfats (5675.00) feetlovers post SB 25.00 pieruzzo post BB 50.00 ** Deal ** poluto [N/A, N/A] feetlovers [N/A, N/A] pieruzzo [N/A, N/A] Daft Pegas [Js, Jd] Larsen74 [N/A, N/A] wokingfats [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** Daft Pegas Raise to 150.00 Larsen74 Fold wokingfats Fold poluto All-in 3505.00 feetlovers Fold pieruzzo Fold Despite it being only level 2 we've already lost 4 players and so it's bubble time. Fold & Survive or call and hope?

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Following on from my earlier question about JJ v an All in shove in the early stages of a tournament, this hand occured tonight for me: Despite it being only level 2 we've already lost 4 players and so it's bubble time. Fold & Survive or call and hope?

Its an easy fold for me - you still have a playable stack so why risk bubbling when you can put your money in the middle in (hopefully) a better position. Just my thoughts Damo

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Very obvious fold, I think. If you fold, there are two big stacks, and four smaller stacks (including you), with one player to go before the money. OK, you're the second smallest stack, but you're not that far behind the third biggest stack. You must have about a 75% chance or more of cashing from that position. Do you have a 75% chance of winning the hand against poluto's range? Not even close. Even against a random hand, you're only about a 77% favourite.

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy another vote for an insta fold. It screams minus EV, at best your going to be in a race.

[Jaded]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Fold, same reasoning as slapdash. (I just couldn't be bothered doing the maths!)

[Dodger]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Playing 2 tables yesterday, comfortably, was looking to try 4 tables this morning. Been waiting here since 5.30 but site unavailable. So showing yesterday's results now: Sunday Aggression: 5€ cooler Won 5.50 +4.5 10€ cooler Won 16.50 +13.5 5€ cooler Won 22.00 +18 3€ cooler xxx 25.30 +14.70 5€ cooler xxx 30.80 + 9.20 5€ cooler xxx 36.30 + 3.30 10€ cooler xxx 47.30 -7.70 -16% Monday SitOut: 3€ cooler xxx 3.30 -3.30 5€ cooler won 8.80 +1.20 5€ cooler won 14.30 +5.70 5€ cooler xxx 19.80 +0.20 5€ cooler won 25.30 +4.70 5€ cooler won 30.80 +9.20 5€ cooler won 36.30 +13.70 5€ cooler won 41.80 +18.20 5€ cooler won 47.30 +22.70 5€ cooler won 52.80 +27.20 5€ cooler xxx 58.30 +21.70 5€ cooler won 63.80 +26.20 5€ cooler won 69.30 +30.70 5€ cooler xxx 74.80 +25.20 5€ cooler xxx 80.30 + 19.70 +24% (66% ITM) Obviously a very small sample but it seems to me that ultra tight is the way to go. For me the downfall of the aggressive game is that there are so many poor players out there that you are going to get called when you really shouldn't. :unsure

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I knew the answers would come back as fold. However you know that you're ahead of him when the money goes into the middle. He's not shoving with AA, KK, QQ in which case I'm the favourite to win the hand statistically. Having discounted those hands the worst he could have is 2 overcards making it a race. I thought it was more likely he had Ace rag maybe suited giving me a big opportunity to double up and easily win the tournament. Remembering that you have to take a chance and get all your chips in the middle at some point in these games I chose to call and hoped that my read of Ace rag was correct. wokingfats [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** Daft Pegas Raise to 150.00 Larsen74 Fold wokingfats Fold poluto All-in 3505.00 feetlovers Fold pieruzzo Fold Daft Pegas All-in 1545.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [5h, 7h, 4s] *** Turn(Board): *** : [5h, 7h, 4s, 2c] *** River(Board): *** : [5h, 7h, 4s, 2c, 10h] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3165.00 poluto [Ah, Qd] Highest card ace Win: 0.00 feetlovers Fold Win: 0.00 pieruzzo Fold Win: 0.00 Daft Pegas [Js, Jd] Pair of jacks Win: 3165.00 Larsen74 Fold Win: 0.00 wokingfats Fold Win: 0.00 Whilst I misread the kicker i knew I was ahead when the money went in. Whilst I believe the fold is a good play, would I rather call knowing I was ahead, or shove with ATC and position later on?

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy But it's not about winning, it's about making the top 5. What are jacks vs AQ ? 52% vs 48% ?? Being ahead when the money goes in isn't the point. It's not a cash game where you can make a call on strict EV, niether does it have a tiered payout structure where you want to win. What are your chances to cash if you fold it, a hella lot better. sorry DP, but i looks a dreadful call to me. :sad I'm not sure you have to take a chance and get your chips in, surely you want someone else to do it. Pushing all in first is a hugley different from calling some elses bet.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy By winning the tournament I meant "finishing in the top 5" Had both sets of cards been dealt face up I would have folded. I didn't want to be in a race against 2 over cards. I put his shove down to a weaker hand trying to bully the short stacks knowing that they should fold. I guess what I'm trying to learn with this hand is determining when to take the gamble in these games. i know I'll put all my chips in the middle at some point in the game. Obviously I'd like to do that with the nuts or be the first into the pot, but that's not always going to happen. As displayed by Gaf earlier in the thread people will shove with ATC's. Why is it OK to shove with 85o but wrong to call with JJ? Maybe I need to read a poker book about positive and negative ev?

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Why is it OK to shove with 85o but wrong to call with JJ? Maybe I need to read a poker book about positive and negative ev?

Its not wrong to call with JJ, but some situations are a lot better than others to call with. This was one of those situations when folding is (IMHO) a better play given what all the players have in front of them compared to the blinds that are in play. You are risking too much when you don't have too. Make it the next level 100/200 and its an insta-call, just not here. However well done for cashing:ok and a nice post, its certainly generated some good discussion :) Cheers Damo

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Why is it OK to shove with 85o but wrong to call with JJ? Maybe I need to read a poker book about positive and negative ev?

Well, a lot of the value of shoving with 85o is that you'll pick up the blinds without a showdown. Suppose you shove on the button and that either of the blinds would call with a top 10% hand (and, depending on stack sizes, they're actually likely to be a lot tighter than that: top 10% includes A9s, Q10s, AJo, 88). Then you get called about 20% of the time, and your 85o will win about 28% of the times you're called. So you only get eliminated at most 15% of the time, which is a lot less often than you'll get eliminated when you call with JJ. Granted, you win more chips when you call an all-in with JJ and win than when you pick up the blinds by raising with 85o. But a lot of the time you won't really need those extra chips. In fact, if you fold those jacks then you may never even have to steal: somebody else may well get eliminated before you have to make a move. It's true that if it takes a long time for somebody to get eliminated and you have to risk shoving three or four times to preserve your stack, then you may come to regret folding the jacks. But if everybody survives that long, then by that time, even if you'd doubled up with the jacks, your stack might be looking that large.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Its not wrong to call with JJ' date=' but some situations are a lot better than others to call with. [/quote'] Thanks. :ok I've highlighted a couple of phrases that helped me understand it more in the hope it helps others too. I honestly think I would have folded had I not earlier in this thread posed a question about exactly this situation. However, does this mean that I should also fold AA in the same position? Mathematically I will lose with AA more than 15% of the time against 2 random cards.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

However, does this mean that I should also fold AA in the same position? Mathematically I will lose with AA more than 15% of the time against 2 random cards.

I actually think it's quite close, but I'd call. If you call with AA, you lose immediately about 15% of the time, and even if you call and win then you're not guaranteed to cash. In total I'd guess you have about an 80% chance of cashing if you call (15% of the time you'll lose the hand; 5% you'll win the hand but lose the tournament). If you fold, then your chance of cashing is probably not that far short of 80%. I might fold if I thought some of the remaining players were particularly reckless.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

However, does this mean that I should also fold AA in the same position? Mathematically I will lose with AA more than 15% of the time against 2 random cards.

LOL well in theory yes it might be right to fold But it would take exceptional circumstances for me to fold AA......... They would be (as an 'off the top of my head' example): its the bubble, I have 3500 chips and raise to 600 (100/200blinds) and the 'shover over the top' has 10000 chips - everyone else at the table has <2BB left and they are all going to be in the BB/SB before I do - in which I case I fold, because one of them is more likely to bust first and I cash. That help? :lol Damo ps if you asking specifically about the situation above (replacing JJ with AA) then no, folding is not the correct choice, its an insta-call for me. All of you have similar stacks, there are no real shorties and you are unlikely to find a better position to double up in the next orbit. If you call and win my gut feeling is that you are probably close to 80% chance to cash, about the same chance of your Aces holding up - so its probably a good bet. (I'll let JJ or Slap correct me on the maths;)).

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

ps if you asking specifically about the situation above (replacing JJ with AA) then no, folding is not the correct choice, its an insta-call for me. All of you have similar stacks, there are no real shorties and you are unlikely to find a better position to double up in the next orbit. If you call and win my gut feeling is that you are probably close to 80% chance to cash, about the same chance of your Aces holding up - so its probably a good bet. (I'll let JJ or Slap correct me on the maths;)).

Yes - sticking to this situation. Playing these types of games I find myself in this position all the time - 4 similar stacks and 1 or 2 larger stacks. Also I want the larger stacks to be agressive because I want them to steal the chips from the other players. However that also means that they'll try to take my blinds so I need to be prepared to take a stand if I have a worthwhile hand. What I'm trying to work out is what hand I need. JJ is a fold AA is a call Logic says then that KK & QQ are next to look at I'd call in this situation with KK everytime. With QQ I'd base more of my decision on the player I'm up against and how they're playing although my tendancy would be to call. It's interesting that you say "you're unlikely to find a better opportunity to double up". that's one of the way's I looked at the JJ hand. On average I'm going to wait another 60 hands before I get something better than JJ in the hole. I'm now going round in circles here. Maybe I shouldn't analyse one hand so much:(

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Yes - sticking to this situation. Playing these types of games I find myself in this position all the time - 4 similar stacks and 1 or 2 larger stacks. Also I want the larger stacks to be agressive because I want them to steal the chips from the other players. However that also means that they'll try to take my blinds so I need to be prepared to take a stand if I have a worthwhile hand. What I'm trying to work out is what hand I need. JJ is a fold AA is a call Logic says then that KK & QQ are next to look at I'd call in this situation with KK everytime. With QQ I'd base more of my decision on the player I'm up against and how they're playing although my tendancy would be to call.

I'd certainly fold anything other than AA here. If I fold, I'm sure I have at least a 75% chance of cashing. If I call, even with KK, I doubt I have as much as a 75% chance of surviving this hand (unless the other guy is literally shoving with ATC), and even if I do survive, I probably still have around a 5% chance of bubbling.

It's interesting that you say "you're unlikely to find a better opportunity to double up". that's one of the way's I looked at the JJ hand. On average I'm going to wait another 60 hands before I get something better than JJ in the hole.

I think the flaw with this is that, although it's true that you're unlikely to find a better opportunity to double up, it's fairly likely that you won't need an opportunity to double up. There are three other players roughly as short as you, so it's likely one of them will have their whole stack at risk before you do.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

am 6 tabling' date='[/quote'] There are people on 2+2 who claim they're 40 tabling these on Stars! :loon

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I can believe it :ok With no end game to play, and a pretty tight strategy, it's an easier format than most to multitable.