Coolers - lets discuss strategy

[aldric]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I knew this was going to happen eventually. I am doing well in a 5 euro cooler and get dealt AA.. early raise, do I throw the aces away? I don't need to accumulate chips as I am the chip leader. Cooler (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: barrels (1760.00) Seat 2: Unknown (0.00) Seat 3: Xavier81 (1280.00) Seat 4: PL-Aldric (2617.00) Seat 5: check180 (1730.00) Seat 6: yüciiiiii (1555.00) Seat 7: rashidg (695.00) Seat 8: Kacak3 (1378.00) Seat 9: Huzzle (1570.00) Seat 10: judith 16 (2415.00) PL-Aldric post SB 50.00 check180 post BB 100.00 ** Deal ** barrels [N/A, N/A] Xavier81 [N/A, N/A] PL-Aldric [Ac, As] check180 [N/A, N/A] yüciiiiii [N/A, N/A] rashidg [N/A, N/A] Kacak3 [N/A, N/A] Huzzle [N/A, N/A] judith 16 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** yüciiiiii Fold rashidg Fold Kacak3 Fold Huzzle Raise to 300.00 judith 16 Fold barrels Fold Xavier81 Fold PL-Aldric Raise to 1500.00 check180 Fold Huzzle Call 1500.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [6s, 2h, 10c] *** Bet Round 2 *** PL-Aldric Bet 100.00 Huzzle All-in 70.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [6s, 2h, 10c, Kc] *** River(Board): *** : [6s, 2h, 10c, Kc, 4h] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3240.00 barrels Fold Win: 0.00 Xavier81 Fold Win: 0.00 PL-Aldric [Ac, As] Pair of aces Win: 0.00 check180 Fold Win: 0.00 yüciiiiii Fold Win: 0.00 rashidg Fold Win: 0.00 Kacak3 Fold Win: 0.00 Huzzle [10h, 10s] Three of a kind, tens Win: 3240.00 judith 16 Fold Win: 0.00

[staffy]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy No happy with your play there. Only difference for me I would have gone all in pre flop.

[aldric]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

No happy with your play there. Only difference for me I would have gone all in pre flop.

I did effectively go all in as the players left to act had around 1500 chips. I went out a bit later with KK beaten by AK, runner runner for straight on river.. Having a frustrating morning :sad

[staffy]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Fair comment what ever you do he calls. your just unlucky. Ultimately you want him to call.

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Ye guys are good teachers read this thread and i never played these games before and played 2 today one 10 and one 50 on pokerstars and placed in both which was nice now i know it could be a fluke but i hope not. Anyways cheers you guys really know your shit:notworthy:notworthy

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Ultimately you want him to call.

Not sure I agree with this :unsure In cash poker for certain. In standard tournaments, most of the time :ok But in a cooler? The goal is to take pots down uncontested - even with Aces, your chances of losing are too high to want a call and showdown - especially in this situation where you are chip leader. If he raises to 300 and we reraise all in with our aces, and he then lets us choose whether he folds or calls, I think I choose for him to fold. :unsure You've won enough chips that you should be able to sit out to the prizes. If he calls and he wins, then you're right in the pack again (indeed down to 8th).... This is where "low level cheating" that slapdash has a thread about is really beneficial - if you put in the chatbox something like "I have aces and will show" then you really encourage the fold (which I think you want) - it's wrong, but loads of people do it, and Boss don't seem bothered about it or interested in enforcing the rules - you compete or get left behind........

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy yeah you want a fold everytime when your semi big stacked:ok pick up the extra 400 chips safely rather than get possibly outdrawn. surely the other guy should have pushed pre flop if he's gonna call an all in anyway? i had a go on the boss ones yesterday and was amazed at how badly some played. had 2 shortstacks(about 800 chips each) flat call my 100 chip bb(i was midstacked on around 1600)i picked up js and pushed. both called ,one with a7 one with a8:loonand yes they did hit an ace:wall(still cashed tho:))

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Add to that another 50 3 cashes from 3. how many games would i need to play to get an proper average 50 100. O and what kind of raising would u do in the first levels, i havent played a hand in any of the first 4 levels and then when i do raise i go all in. This about right ya

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

i havent played a hand in any of the first 4 levels and then when i do raise i go all in. This about right ya

Sounds pretty good to me :ok When I do get aces early, I tend to overbet - I want to discourage too much action, and make my opponent make as big a mistake as possible if he calls - also wanting to reduce the implied odds I'm offering

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy O ya one more question again im playing tight blinds gone up but now ive the 2 largest stacks to my immiadte left and my stack is small still have fold equity but more so to the medium stacks, so do i wait ti steal off the medium running the gauntlet of the big stacks or steal off them. Sorry 4 in a row and another 50 i know its nothing to brag about but this is kind of fun for not that much thinking. Thanks again guys

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy The problem is you have to go through the big stacks to get to the medium stacks - I think you have to wait a bit more and make sure you have some cards to attack with in case you are called (assuming the big stacks have shown a propensity to defend - some big stacks go ultra defensive - you can steal off of them :ok)

[smyther]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Ya i got 1010 and KQ and was able to steal then with 2 short stacks at the table a big stack and big medium went to war and the medium got knocked out.:lol

[Dodger]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy November 4th: Have had a week to try these coolers and I think they are not for me. Not really enjoying them, so tried multitabling to spice it up but then it is more difficult to observe the other players and choose the correct times to attack. Just played my first 20€ game and ''won''...but enough is enough, overall results are slightly +ve ROI so a good time to call it a day I think. Final results then: :ok

[happyhornet]

I have just read with great interest (and at great length!!) this thread, and played a couple of these on Boss. This is my interpretation of the collective wisdom: Early levels(8-10 left) In early position play only Premium hands, and raise as normal with them. In mid to late position perhaps limp with smaller pairs. Post flop, don't get too attached to anything and conserve chips. Later levels (6-7 left) Only enter a pot with an all-in, aiming to nick the blinds. Avoid confrontation, and wait for someone to knock themself out. This is a gross over-simplication, I realise, but how accurate is the above as an optimum way to play?

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy That's close to the standard strategy. Using that strategy and your natural poker ability you should do well in these games. The hard part is getting the timing correct on your shoves and also when to play pot's in the early stages.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy I think that's a fairly good summary, HH. A few things I'd add: In early position in the early rounds, I almost never play anything except AA and KK. Not because I'm sure that's correct, but because it's the only way of playing that I'm fairly sure is not very wrong. In late position I do sometimes limp with pocket pairs, but I'm not convinced that it's right. The problem is that even if you do hit trips, you're a lot less likely to get paid off than in a normal STT, though what your implied odds are obviously depends on the level you're playing at. But since you're only investing one BB, it can't be very wrong. I suspect that if you never played a hand before the 50/100 blind level, you wouldn't be losing much. In the later levels I agree that you should generally only fold or shove, though you might want to do something else if you're a big stack (I wouldn't know, as I never am!) or for tactical reasons if there's a micro-stack on the verge of bubbling. A couple of things I'd add: In the later stages, it's vital to keep an eye on other peoples' stack sizes, as this makes a huge difference to the odds you need to shove or call. I try to keep estimating my chance of cashing if I fold (I'm not saying I do it very accurately) to make decisions on shoving/calling. Another thing in the later stages is that some people limp when they're trapping with a big hand. Far more limp hoping to see a cheap flop, but will fold to a big raise. I think it's very profitable if you can identify the latter, as stealing blinds + a limper is much better than stealing just the blinds. I'm very lazy about making notes on players, but if there's one thing you make notes on, it should probably be this.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

When I do get aces early, I tend to overbet - I want to discourage too much action, and make my opponent make as big a mistake as possible if he calls - also wanting to reduce the implied odds I'm offering

How much do you bet? And how do you feel if you're called? Happy? Unhappy?

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

How much do you bet? And how do you feel if you're called? Happy? Unhappy?

If the blinds are 15/30, then I'll probably open at about 200. It will be higher if there are limpers/raisers before me. How do I feel about a call? Well I'm not interested in winning 45 chips (the blinds), so I'm not too bothered about a call - I just want them to pay the price when behind. I'll almost always cbet (up to pot) and wont often (if ever) get away from them :unsure From that perspective, probably better to just shove pre flop? :unsure (I suspect that you're going to point out that I am giving sufficent implied odds for a pocket pair to set mine if I dont get away from the hand.....) - If I go all in and get called, I'm not unhappy with an 80% shot at doubling up.

[slapdash]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy As I've said before in this thread, I'm very unsure about the best way to play AA early on, so I'm interested in other people's ideas. I've considered going all-in. After all, some idiot might decide you're a nutter and call, and at least you pick up the blinds if nobody calls. I've also experimented with limping, intending to go all-in if somebody raises, but prepared to give it up on the flop if nobody raises and I don't hit trip aces. Problem is, usually I just attract another limper or two and have to fold postflop.

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Well, just shoving has its appeal :tongue2 (though a raiser before me makes it easier) ***** Hand 1307701307 ***** 15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 05 November 2008 20:08:47 Cooler (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: chener (1500.00) Seat 2: Xavier81 (1485.00) Seat 3: PLTelepee (1440.00) Seat 4: MATMAT13 (1635.00) Seat 5: bimbo51 (1500.00) Seat 6: -= Zoli =- (1500.00) Seat 7: Atti23 (1500.00) Seat 8: pruzze (1440.00) Seat 9: swesteel (1500.00) Seat 10: putte35 (1500.00) PLTelepee post SB 15.00 MATMAT13 post BB 30.00 ** Deal ** chener [N/A, N/A] Xavier81 [N/A, N/A] PLTelepee [:Ad:, :Ac:] MATMAT13 [N/A, N/A] bimbo51 [N/A, N/A] -= Zoli =- [N/A, N/A] Atti23 [N/A, N/A] pruzze [N/A, N/A] swesteel [N/A, N/A] putte35 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** bimbo51 Fold -= Zoli =- Fold Atti23 Fold pruzze Call 30.00 swesteel Fold putte35 Call 30.00 chener Fold Xavier81 Raise to 120.00 PLTelepee All-in 1440.00 MATMAT13 Fold pruzze Fold putte35 Fold Xavier81 Call 1440.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [2d, 3h, 8s] *** Turn(Board): *** : [2d, 3h, 8s, 10d] *** River(Board): *** : [:2d:, :3h:, :8s:, :Td:, :6d:] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2970.00 chener Fold Win: 0.00 Xavier81 [:Kc:, :Ks:] Pair of kings Win: 0.00 PLTelepee [:Ad:, :Ac:] Pair of aces Win: 2970.00 MATMAT13 Fold Win: 0.00 bimbo51 Fold Win: 0.00 -= Zoli =- Fold Win: 0.00 Atti23 Fold Win: 0.00 pruzze Fold Win: 0.00 swesteel Fold Win: 0.00 putte35 Fold Win: 0.00

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy This is how I accidentally played KK in the very first hand of a €20 Cooler.

***** Hand 1306397260 ***** 15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 04 November 2008 21:38:19 Cooler (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: Indy.. (1500.00) Seat 2: peppemondi (1500.00) Seat 7: plSamba (1500.00) Seat 3: superbech (1500.00) Seat 4: AntPoker (1500.00) Seat 5: ichigo86 (1500.00) Seat 6: Roookie (1500.00) Seat 8: Eliasen574 (1500.00) Seat 9: Gorkarex (1500.00) Seat 10: Sickness3 (1500.00) peppemondi post SB 15.00 superbech post BB 30.00 ** Deal ** Indy.. [N/A, N/A] peppemondi [N/A, N/A] plSamba [Kh, Ks] superbech [N/A, N/A] AntPoker [N/A, N/A] ichigo86 [N/A, N/A] Roookie [N/A, N/A] Eliasen574 [N/A, N/A] Gorkarex [N/A, N/A] Sickness3 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** AntPoker Fold ichigo86 Fold Roookie Fold plSamba Call 30.00 [i slid the raise button along to 180, other window popped up, folded in the other window, popped this window back and clicked.....call :wall ] Eliasen574 Call 30.00 Gorkarex Call 30.00 Sickness3 Call 30.00 Indy.. Fold peppemondi Call 30.00 superbech Check *** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 9d, 2h] *** Bet Round 2 *** peppemondi Check superbech Check plSamba Bet 90.00 [150 in the pot, and the flop looks a good'un, so made decision to play 'properly' Eliasen574 Raise to 220.00 Gorkarex Fold Sickness3 Fold peppemondi Fold superbech Fold plSamba Call 220.00 [pretty sure he has flopped top pair and thinks the reraise will scare all away, happy just to call and see what turns] *** Turn(Board): *** : [3s, 9d, 2h, 4h] *** Bet Round 3 *** plSamba All-in 1250.00 [not a good turn, with flush and straight possibilities, so I want to take it down here and now] Eliasen574 All-in 1250.00 [didn't work] *** River(Board): *** : [3s, 9d, 2h, 4h, 5d] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3120.00 Indy.. Fold Win: 0.00 peppemondi Fold Win: 0.00 plSamba [Kh, Ks] Pair of kings Win: 3120.00 superbech Fold Win: 0.00 AntPoker Fold Win: 0.00 ichigo86 Fold Win: 0.00 Roookie Fold Win: 0.00 Eliasen574 [7h, 9h] Pair of nines Win: 0.00 Gorkarex Fold Win: 0.00

From this point on I didn't play a single hand, and aside from receiving a walk in the BB at 150/300 level I made no profits on hands, and made it into final 5 at the 200/400 level with 1120 chips. This hand made me wonder if it IS worth playing Premium hands in the early levels, as this hand set me up for the tourney, whereas if I hadn't have played it I would have HAD to gamble with a lesser hand. Better have your chips in middle holding KK than A5s at a later stage?

[happyhornet]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy On AA early doors, why not play it as you would in a tourney? 3xBB raise and if you get a caller, great. You are unlikely to get too many callers and then be outdrawn.

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

On AA early doors' date=' why not play it as you would in a tourney? 3xBB raise and if you get a caller, great. You are unlikely to get too many callers and then be outdrawn.[/quote'] I would always raise with AA early levels - I can't see why anyone wouldn't and am suprised there have been comments about this:unsure? It is the best starting hand in the game and you are going to be at least an 80% Fav if called (assuming villian hasn't got AA as well), so why not pick up a few hundred chips now, rather than relying on blind knicking later when you win the same amount but for (potentially) more risk? Just wondering Damo

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

I would always raise with AA early levels - I can't see why anyone wouldn't and am suprised there have been comments about this:unsure?

I'm not sure anyone has suggested open folding have they? :unsure

It is the best starting hand in the game and you are going to be at least an 80% Fav if called (assuming villian hasn't got AA as well)' date=' so why not pick up a few hundred chips now, rather than relying on blind knicking later when you win the same amount but for (potentially) more risk?[/quote'] I think you may be "just" 75% against some hands wont you? And against 2 opponents you can go down to not far over 50-60% (a coin flip) :unsure Against 3 opponents, you can probably be an underdog :unsure The issue though I think is more about bet sizing - balancing the risk v reward. You dont really want to pick up just blinds of 45, but at the same time you dont want to offer good implied odds, or to go to showdown

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy This is a hand I actually wasnt involved in, but just saw DP play on my table - it illustrates something I've been thinking about a bit in recent games.....

***** Hand 1309161727 ***** 150.00/300.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 06 November 2008 20:37:08 Cooler (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: Unknown (0.00) Seat 2: pl---GaF (2345.00) Seat 3: ludvo777 (2790.00) Seat 4: Unknown (0.00) Seat 5: Unknown (0.00) Seat 6: Unknown (0.00) Seat 7: many33700 (1800.00) Seat 8: esset (3995.00) Seat 9: KSSG1947 (2455.00) Seat 10: Daft Pegas (1615.00) KSSG1947 post SB 150.00 Daft Pegas post BB 300.00 ** Deal ** pl---GaF [5d, 8d] ludvo777 [N/A, N/A] many33700 [N/A, N/A] esset [N/A, N/A] KSSG1947 [N/A, N/A] Daft Pegas [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** pl---GaF Fold ludvo777 Fold many33700 Fold esset Fold KSSG1947 Call 300.00 Daft Pegas Check *** Flop(Board): *** : [4c, As, 8h] *** Bet Round 2 *** KSSG1947 Check Daft Pegas Check *** Turn(Board): *** : [4c, As, 8h, 5c] *** Bet Round 3 *** KSSG1947 Check Daft Pegas Check *** River(Board): *** : [4c, As, 8h, 5c, 10h] *** Bet Round 4 *** KSSG1947 Bet 300.00 Daft Pegas All-in 1315.00 KSSG1947 Fold *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1200.00 pl---GaF Fold Win: 0.00 ludvo777 Fold Win: 0.00 many33700 Fold Win: 0.00 esset Fold Win: 0.00 KSSG1947 Fold Win: 0.00 Daft Pegas By default Win: 1200.00

At the level I've been playing at, I've seen a lot of the time, the SB open complete - often with a mid stack. I read it totally as "I'm weak, but wouldn't mind seeing a cheap flop". When I'm the BB I've been shoving all in, and I think without exception, the limper has folded. I view it as a great spot to build my stack and do so at every opportunity (with any two cards). Because they are coolers, I havent seen people slow playing monsters there. I appreciate DP made more than I would have done, on this occasion, but I do think it was a higher risk move.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy It was interesting playing with a fellow PL'er tonight, particularly when you were 2 to my left and played exactly as you stated in this thread. I don't think you put any money into the pot other than the blinds - never made up the SB either - except when you shoved all in with KK. It was slightly harder to play than normal because I obviously wanted you to win too, hence the number of players I could choose to target was reduced by one. Don't get me wrong I would have called a shove from you if I had a hand, I'd just prefer not to.:tongue2 I agree that the limp from the SB is usually weak, but it could be a monster also to which my hand would almost certainly lost. It was bubble time and I had enough chips that I could afford to fold at any time in the hand without worrying. His check, check, minimum bet was a bigger sign of weakness, information I would not have had if I'd shoved pre flop. His betting implied that he didn't have the Ace so my hand of :Td: :2h: was almost certainly winning after the river card. Had he not bet the river I would probably have checked it down happy to pick up the blinds. Admittedly maybe calling the river would have been better but I wanted to make him think twice about shoving against me in the future.

[AJ]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Ok, since reading this thread I've decided to give these a go. Been playing the $5 + 0.20 on stars for the low rake. Played 15 of them now, cashed in 10. The general standard of these games is poor, there appears to be two schools of thought, some people look for a double up and others are willing to wait for their spot. I'm now convinced option two is the way to go. Folded AA preflop tonight for the first time, 700 chips at the bubble, two larger stacks already all in. I'd just like to say the advice in this thread from GaF, DP and Damo in particular has been top notch and really helped

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

I'm not sure anyone has suggested open folding have they? :unsure I think you may be "just" 75% against some hands wont you? And against 2 opponents you can go down to not far over 50-60% (a coin flip) :unsure Against 3 opponents, you can probably be an underdog :unsure

Slap mentioned limping and rerasing with Aces early levels as he is unsure how best to play them :) As I said villian, not villians - I would agree with what you previously posted; if I am up against one caller on a non threatening board I am probably not letting Aces go on the flop - against 2 or more then I would seriously consider it. getting max value for your aces? - I agree that is the tricky part - if the board is really uncoordinated and I am first to act I will check to trap, if there looks like something might have hit the villian (K,Q or J) I will probably bet 2/3 pot, if the board looks even more scary (2 flush or 2 straight draw) I am pot betting and then having to make my decision if villian shoves/raises. If I have position with Aces, even better! though I am more likely to bet 1/2 - 2/3 pot as an 'obvious' continuation bet. These are not hard and fast rules, but often played by ear as some flops seem to be more scarey than others (even though the percentages are close to each other!) Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy

Folded AA preflop tonight for the first time, 700 chips at the bubble, two larger stacks already all in.

Excellent fold :ok- hope you cashed:hope Damo

[GaF]

Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy If anyone wants further reading on this, there's a 106 page thread on 2plus2 :loon http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36/stt-strategy/official-double-nothing-thread-252333/