morlspin Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival whats bitter about it Graeme?? please explain Just because Joe Legge enjoys god like status on this forum all his decisions seem vindicated. If another site had done 'after eventing' like this they would have been lambasted on this forum. A very blinkered view IMO Re: the seat......i dont know wether mo getting the chance to pay the extra for a seat is right or wrong, not my decision to make Re: Bitter......thats exactly how your sounding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Re: the seat......i dont know wether mo getting the chance to pay the extra for a seat is right or wrong, not my decision to make Re: Bitter......thats exactly how your sounding well maybe you need to mature a little and try a little critical thinking, why would I be bitter?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Just because Joe Legge enjoys god like status on this forum all his decisions seem vindicated. The reason for that is that we have a long long history with him and we "know the man" - we know he's fair, we know he's reasonable - so yes, he CAN get away with things on here that other poker managers probably couldn't - that's the trust he's earnt from us over time ..... However I really don't think this is one of those cases - He's basically awarded an EXTRA prize above and beyond what was won on the night - noone has lost out, but moFace has something ADDED - I cannot see the issue!! The request came from me/PL to Virgin/Joe - we put to him what happened, suggested what we thought would be a fair and generous solution (to allow moFace to be able to purchase a ticket) - Joe considered this and agreed. Any criticism of Joe/Virgin over this, has to be a bigger criticism of Me/PL..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival I think it is quite sad that you cannot see the issue GaF, maybe you do not want to see the issue as you realise the faux pas that may have been made here. Please dont patronise me about Joe, I have met Joe and his girlfriend and I really enjoyed his company and he has done a few favours for me in the past, I am not questioning Joe's integrity!! There were 15 players in that game, 3 were pler's (but the others have rights too :lol). We were discussing during the game what a sham it was and we concluded there was no seat on offer, then the play really loosened up. If the guy that went out 15th thought he had a chance to add $30 to get his seat I am sure he would have played on and so it goes for the rest right up to the guy that finished 2nd. The reason for that is that we have a long long history with him and we "know the man" - we know he's fair, we know he's reasonable - so yes, he CAN get away with things on here that other poker managers probably couldn't - that's the trust he's earnt from us over time ..... However I really don't think this is one of those cases - He's basically awarded an EXTRA prize above and beyond what was won on the night - noone has lost out, but moFace has something ADDED - I cannot see the issue!! The request came from me/PL to Virgin/Joe - we put to him what happened, suggested what we thought would be a fair and generous solution (to allow moFace to be able to purchase a ticket) - Joe considered this and agreed. Any criticism of Joe/Virgin over this, has to be a bigger criticism of Me/PL..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival If the guy that went out 15th thought he had a chance to add $30 to get his seat I am sure he would have played on and so it goes for the rest right up to the guy that finished 2nd. Didn't moFace get $75 for first? He is having to add $135 to get the seat... I don't think we're going to agree - you've posted your view, I've posted my view - probably best if we leave people to make up their own minds whether it's reasonable or not now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Didn't moFace get $75 for first? He is having to add $135 to get the seat... I don't think we're going to agree - you've posted your view, I've posted my view - probably best if we leave people to make up their own minds whether it's reasonable or not now? just numbers gaf it is not important I was getting my $'s and £'s mixed up. Quite a boring debate in the end all the meek ones decide to stay meek only judas turned up and he was no use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColU_FC Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Quite a boring debate in the end all the meek ones decide to stay meek Maybe the 'meek' ones were actually 'don't think this topic is of any importance' ones. Storms and teacups come to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival News "hot off the presses".... It is looking like the future SuperSats will be moved from Wednesdays to Thursdays (Good for us because then it doesn't clash with the PL Paradise league) and that they will have 1 seat guaranteed :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adetrick Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival probably best if we leave people to make up their own minds whether it's reasonable or not now? Was it a decent thing to do - yes, and I'm glad a the seat went to a member of the forum. Was it the right thing to do - absolutely not. As GaF said in a thread a while ago, these seats are in reality worth a lot more than their face value. As a result, in my opinion, those who played would have no doubt have played differently had they known from the outset that a seat was on offer to the winner. From my own point of view, I loitered around the lobby right until the last minute but didn't register as there weren't enough players to generate the prizepool for a seat to be on offer. Feel slightly disappointed now as if I had played I would have had better than the advertised 1 in 21 chance of getting a seat. All of the advertised literature that I have read or received about the festival has said there will be no opportunity to buy in to the event - isn't that what Virgin have now allowed? No criticism here against MoFace or PL but I feel that Virgin have acted somewhat unfairly in agreeing to the request after the event. However, it is their event and I suppose they can invite whomever they want. Storm in a tea-cup? - maybe. As you say, we are talking about a leisure activity to most. But I'm not particularly comfortable with the direct buy-in criterion being changed just because the request came from PL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival No criticism here against MoFace or PL but I feel that Virgin have acted somewhat unfairly in agreeing to the request after the event. However, it is their event and I suppose they can invite whomever they want. I couldn't have put it better myself (I obviously didn't :D) As for storm in a tea cup - size doesn't matter Dave you should know that :lol and for me it is a matter of principle above everything else and you surprise me as I always took you for a man of very high principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippe6 Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival fair play to the guy hes got in one way or another but doesnt it leave the door open for future things to happen and fall out about. ill keep trying to get in all the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moFace Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival i can understand what everyone is saying, my view was i wanted to win anyway just for the money on offer but i can understand why people loosened up, i would have played it the same if a seat was gauranteed and didnt expect to be offered one so its a very nice bonus, but can understand people getting a bit peeved only natural, at the end of the day it was virgins decision and if they want to offer me a seat i aint complainin :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adetrick Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Moface, not peeved at all, in fact pleased for you. Also thought the request from PL to Virgin was a great gesture - shows how much they value their members. I just don't think Virgin's decision was the right one in principle. I'm with Kippe - will keep trying for a seat for this event. Have only been playing for about two years and whilst I'm very much still in the learning zone it would be nice to sample a live poker event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival I'm with GaF and ColU, I can't see any matter of principle here at all. The comparison with Goalpoker changing their rules is just silly. If Goalpoker had changed the rules so that they gave BJ and Fenner something extra (say a free upgrade to first class flights) rather than reneging on their WSOP seats, would people have complained? The complaint with GP was that they gave less than they promised, not more. OK, so I suppose one extra player in the Virgin event spreads the extra value a bit more thinly, and if they added a large number of players "through the back door" then there would be some reason for complaint. But let's see: £5000 added value ... suppose moFace makes it 201 players instead of 200 ... that makes it about £24.875 added value per person instead of £25, so every qualifier loses about 12.5p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival I'm with GaF and ColU, I can't see any matter of principle here at all. The comparison with Goalpoker changing their rules is just silly. If Goalpoker had changed the rules so that they gave BJ and Fenner something extra (say a free upgrade to first class flights) rather than reneging on their WSOP seats, would people have complained? The complaint with GP was that they gave less than they promised, not more. OK, so I suppose one extra player in the Virgin event spreads the extra value a bit more thinly, and if they added a large number of players "through the back door" then there would be some reason for complaint. But let's see: £5000 added value ... suppose moFace makes it 201 players instead of 200 ... that makes it about £24.875 added value per person instead of £25, so every qualifier loses about 12.5p. Its no surprise you are siding with GaF and your argument has completely lost the thread. I wasn't talking about Fenners and BJ, GP used to change rules on promotions 'after the event' ask morls, mr v and chelski :unsure how they felt about it at the time. If you cannot see it as a matter of principle then fair enough but to change the rules after the event to suit one person sets a precedent that should be followed through. The numbers at the event is incidental that wasn't the debate and has never been in question. Well done to mo though for having the right attitude and wanting to win the game no matter what, I just dont apply myself that well. Also well done for making hay while the sun shines, I'm sure all of us would have taken Joe's arms off at the shoulders if offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adetrick Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Fully understand what you are saying Slapdash and not wishing to be inflammatory but just to explain my opinion. The principle on my part is not about the theoretical diminished value in the event but that it goes against: a) what has been published about direct buy-in to the event; b) the details on their web-site and their e-mail which clearly states 1 seat for every 21 players in the the weekly super-satellites; and c) What was stated in the tournament lobby at the time of registration/playing. Will re-iterate that it's their event and they can do as they wish but why set these stipulations and then not stick to them? Also, if the winner of the super-satellite hadn't been a forum member the seat would not have been given - so not really a level playing field for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Its no surprise you are siding with GaF Sorry, what's that supposed to mean? I can assure you I'm grown up enough to have my own opinions. If I disagree with GaF, I say so. and your argument has completely lost the thread. I wasn't talking about Fenners and BJ, GP used to change rules on promotions 'after the event' ask morls, mr v and chelski :unsure how they felt about it at the time. The difference is that Virgin have "changed the rules" in a way that disadvantages nobody (ignoring the tiny effect of an extra player in the live event, which you seem to be willing to ignore). As far as I remember, the problem with GP's "rule changes" were precisely that they did disadvantage people. If you cannot see it as a matter of principle then fair enough but to change the rules after the event to suit one person sets a precedent that should be followed through. The numbers at the event is incidental that wasn't the debate and has never been in question. I don't understand what precedent it sets, and how you think it should be followed through? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival For once I wish I could find a fence to sit on that didn't have barbed wire on it.... Unless its my hema, emma, haemarriyds, piles playing up. I'm on the fence I guess because whilst I can see MCFC's point of view, I think I would have been like MoFace and played on regardless. However, whilst I understand the annoyance the eventual outcome would cause the other players it was still their choice as to what they do with their chips. I honestly don't think for one second that Joe Legge thought that any of the tournaments would be under subscribed like this particular one was, and had he done so and realised the support that PL's players provide to promotions like this I'm quite sure he would have ensured beforehand that a seat would be guaranteed. It is annoying when poker rooms change the rules as they see fit and I do accept that you have suffered from this more than anyone (perhaps with the exception of BJ and Fenners) with the Pokerroom debacle, but I can't help thinking that the fact that it has been changed for the benefit of the majority of their customers should be congratulated, not criticised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColU_FC Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival you surprise me as I always took you for a man of very high principles. I am mate but I only stand up for those principles over something I think really matters. This, for me, is just a game of cards that I play with people I've grown to like. I value those relationships far more than the card game and thus it is very unlikely that I will ever enter into any dispute with those people over the card game. It's the old risk v reward ratio. ;) I'm not having a go at you Brian, I include you in what I've said about relationships I value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Also, if the winner of the super-satellite hadn't been a forum member the seat would not have been given - so not really a level playing field for all. Do you also think it's wrong for Virgin to give PL a private tournament with seats as prizes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Surely, what happened here occured AFTER the tournament had finished, and was a gesture from Virgin to one of it's players. An analogy would be if they were particularly impressed with the winner's play and subsequently wanted to sponsor them, would the other players have a right to complain? No, of course not. As such i cannot see what it has to do with anyone else. If Mo had known about this offer during the tournament then it would be a different matter, but he didn't. I, for one, congratulate Joe and Virgin for their generous offer to Mo, and GaF for attempting to assist a PL-er.:clap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Sorry, what's that supposed to mean? I can assure you I'm grown up enough to have my own opinions. If I disagree with GaF, I say so. It is probably not meant in the way you are thinking :ok Gaf has a great deal of respect on this forum and rightly so and people (in general) find it difficult to disagree with him but not me I disagree with him all the time;) The difference is that Virgin have "changed the rules" in a way that disadvantages nobody (ignoring the tiny effect of an extra player in the live event, which you seem to be willing to ignore). As far as I remember, the problem with GP's "rule changes" were precisely that they did disadvantage people. Ignoring it because it is not the point, I must be on the stupid pills today as nobody with the exception of Ade has grasped the point. Would it be easier if I did this in pinyin? I don't understand what precedent it sets, and how you think it should be followed through? Virgin made a statement that there were no buy ins for this event - allowing mo the buy in has set a precedent. If a similar situation arises between now and November it would be wrong of Virgin not to do the same. It should have been made clear what the 15 players were playing for, it was when the prize came up with no seat, then a seat was offered after the event Do you also think it's wrong for Virgin to give PL a private tournament with seats as prizes? No just like other forums are getting them and pokerplayer has 20 and other magazines will have them too, again this is not the point Ade and I are making and I am surprised you are. I am off to the pub now :beerand I have not had a drink for 3 weeks, so ignore (forgive) me if my conversations become stella induced later on:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adetrick Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Do you also think it's wrong for Virgin to give PL a private tournament with seats as prizes? Sorry, not sure I understand the relationship between this public tournament and a privately orgainised exclusive one - unless you are infering that PL should get preferential treatment. Like I said before - decent gesture - but the right one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival It is probably not meant in the way you are thinking :ok Gaf has a great deal of respect on this forum and rightly so and people (in general) find it difficult to disagree with him but not me I disagree with him all the time;) OK, no problem. :ok Though I'm sure GaF doesn't want anybody to agree with him for that reason, and I'm surprised you think anybody would: in my experience he's among the people I know who are best at taking constructive disagreement. Virgin made a statement that there were no buy ins for this event - allowing mo the buy in has set a precedent. If a similar situation arises between now and November it would be wrong of Virgin not to do the same. It should have been made clear what the 15 players were playing for, it was when the prize came up with no seat, then a seat was offered after the event Well, from what GaF posted, it sounds as though they are going to have a guaranteed seat in these supersatellites in future, so with any luck a similar situation won't occur again. If it does, then personally I hope they do do the same. No just like other forums are getting them and pokerplayer has 20 and other magazines will have them too, again this is not the point Ade and I are making and I am surprised you are. I was specifically addressing Ade's (not your) point that moFace got the seat because he was a PL member and that made it an uneven playing field. I was just pointing out that we (and members of other forums, etc.) already have an advantage, so it's not a level playing field anyway. I have not had a drink for 3 weeks :loon Sorry mate, you should have said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Football-Tipper Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Move over MrV room for one more....... Bri I can see where you are coming from, by not playing for a seat the whole dynamics of the game are changed as im sure much tighter play would have come into it had a seat been gtd in the first place... On the other hand its nice to know that PL/Poker forum is well respected on the outside enough to get the online sites to listen to us as Mr Bloggs off the street wouldnt carry the same weight...... So like im trying to say, well done moface on getting through however you did as im sure all of us would snap it up and Bri I can see where you're coming from Point proven lets move on........ Football Tipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Virgin made a statement that there were no buy ins for this event - allowing mo the buy in has set a precedent. If a similar situation arises between now and November it would be wrong of Virgin not to do the same. It should have been made clear what the 15 players were playing for' date=' it was when the prize came up with no seat, then a seat was offered after the event[/quote'] Virgin would, I think, accept that they made an error in the way they set this tournament up. They have counteracted that by ensuring that 1 seat will be guaranteed in this tournament in the future - that ensures that this situation will not arise again. There COULD be an arguament to say that if future tournaments have a gtd seat, then they should award a gtd seat here retrospectively to the winner of the game that was set up wrong - they haven't done that, instead choosing a "halfway house" where MoFace has to purchase the seat - he's NOT in the same position he would be in if he won the tournament next week. Virgin made a slight error in the format of the sat, they've listened to feedback on it, and acted immediately to resolve the issues. They have also made an effort to "right" the position of the unfortunate winner who was disadvantaged by the wrong setup. I can have nothing but praise for what Virgin have done and the way they have dealt with this. Some agree with me, some disagree (and have expressed their reasons) - do we have to keep rehashing the same arguments? Can we not get this thread back to the REAL issue in hand, and that's building on the number of PL'rs that make this event? I can see 30 odd PL'rs going - I don't feel that any PL'r who wants to go, and makes a real effort to get there need miss out - there are still LOADS of chances to qualify..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival Though I'm sure GaF doesn't want anybody to agree with him for that reason, Absolutely :ok Someone has/had a quote in their sig along the lines that we don't learn anything from people that always agree with us - it's spot on :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Football-Tipper Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival PS can we ban Bri for 24hrs he's gona be like a bear with a sore head when he gets back lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival I don't feel that any PL'r who wants to go' date=' and makes a real effort to get there need miss out - there are still LOADS of chances to qualify.....[/quote'] Well, I'll probably win several more entries into weekly finals I can't play in (two so far) and bubble a few times. :sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Re: Virgin Poker Festival PS can we ban Bri for 24hrs he's gona be like a bear with a sore head when he gets back lol Is he going to get back within 24hrs? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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