erhaab1965 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I'm not disputing P Graysons poor record on paper. I'm just saying you are giving him a hard time for circumstances which cannot be recified at the moment. It seems like this P Grayson witch hunt has spilled over here from another forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I believe its more the horses , facilities , staff , enviorment rather than the trainer himself. Obviously. Although suppoused improvements in these things haven't brough about massive improvement for Tom Dascombe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I'm not disputing P Graysons poor record on paper. I'm just saying you are giving him a hard time for circumstances which cannot be recified at the moment. It seems like this P Grayson witch hunt has spilled over here from another forum. Don't know what you mean about another forum? Or witch hunt for that matter? Just stating the facts, his record is indefendable! Whatever the circumstances are they seem to have been going on for the last 3 years and if he hasn't been able to rectify them in that time then why bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoyRooney Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers No it is not speculation.. It is fact.. Results talk and as Calculus already said, there is proof that his horses perform 20 pounds worse when Grayson has them than before Grayson buys the horse in a claimer !It's a fact that results are bad..It is not a fact he is a bad trainer...He could be a bad trainer but cannot be proven by stats..It's like saying that Lewis hamilton is a better driver than a fella driving a mini metro around a F1 Track because he beats him every time. and the lad in the metro takes 4 days to complete therace.that would be a fact but it wouldn't mean that Lewis hamilton is a better driver,even though he more than likely is,the fact that he beat him with better equipment doesnt not prove it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ok just to stop the witch hunt, i think Grayson is a really nice fella and a very good trainer mis-led by his poor staff, poor horses and poor facilities.. It is not his fault that horses fall to pieces once they join his stable, i will send someone out to do a sample on the grass in his fields and a lead content sample in his water!! Poor Mr Grayson cannot be blamed for any of this, lets give him a luxurious holiday to the Carribean, he deserves a break!! In the meantime im off to cook my bacon, turnip, spuds and parsley sauce! :drums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ok just to stop the witch hunt, i think Grayson is a really nice fella and a very good trainer mis-led by his poor staff, poor horses and poor facilities.. It is not his fault that horses fall to pieces once they join his stable, i will send someone out to do a sample on the grass in his fields and a lead content sample in his water!! Poor Mr Grayson cannot be blamed for any of this, lets give him a luxurious holiday to the Carribean, he deserves a break!! In the meantime im off to cook my bacon, turnip, spuds and parsley sauce! :drums Aidymac you come across as a immature young man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Aidymac you come across as a immature young man. No, its called having a sense of humour which is a trait you dont seem to have :loon No if your finished im putting the mustard on my bacon :nana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc75 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers The facts really don't lie i'm afraid and I have to agree whole-heartedly with AIDY and calculus here and find it impossible for excuses to be made. Peter Grayson's record is woeful as already stated - but you just have to look at what has happened (in a very short space of time) to some of the decent horses he has picked up and if you can show me one horse in his stable that is progressive or is even able to maintain the form shown for previous trainers I would be completely surprised. Just a couple of examples of horses he has picked up in recent months and ruined: Dingaan: claimed in November from Andrew Balding having won that race (finished 2nd time before in class 4 handicap from a mark of 80) - in the space of 3 months the horse has plummeted to a mark of only 65 and has yet to finish better than 6th in seven races for the trainer (finished stone last in three of them) Avonvalley: 2nd from a mark of 68 in handicap company and won claimer in November for George Baker before being claimed by Grayson - has since plummeted to a mark of only 50 in 3 months and progressively getting worse - finishing absolute last when last seen. There really are no excuses here - even if it is down to facilities, other staff members etc etc as claimed by erhaab - ultimately he is the trainer and is the person in charge of the well-being and fitness of the animal so bottom line it falls on his shoulders. I am pretty certain he won't have the worst facilities in the country therefore it boils down to him being an absolutely abysmal trainer in my opinion and I personally wouldn't back one of his horses with stolen money :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers The facts really don't lie i'm afraid and I have to agree whole-heartedly with AIDY and calculus here and find it impossible for excuses to be made. Peter Grayson's record is woeful as already stated - but you just have to look at what has happened (in a very short space of time) to some of the decent horses he has picked up and if you can show me one horse in his stable that is progressive or is even able to maintain the form shown for previous trainers I would be completely surprised. Just a couple of examples of horses he has picked up in recent months and ruined: Dingaan: claimed in November from Andrew Balding having won that race (finished 2nd time before in class 4 handicap from a mark of 80) - in the space of 3 months the horse has plummeted to a mark of only 65 and has yet to finish better than 6th in seven races for the trainer (finished stone last in three of them) Avonvalley: 2nd from a mark of 68 in handicap company and won claimer in November for George Baker before being claimed by Grayson - has since plummeted to a mark of only 50 in 3 months and progressively getting worse - finishing absolute last when last seen. There really are no excuses here - even if it is down to facilities, other staff members etc etc as claimed by erhaab - ultimately he is the trainer and is the person in charge of the well-being and fitness of the animal so bottom line it falls on his shoulders. I am pretty certain he won't have the worst facilities in the country therefore it boils down to him being an absolutely abysmal trainer in my opinion and I personally wouldn't back one of his horses with stolen money :ok I choked on some mustard whilst reading that mate and got some up my nose, jesus it stings... I fully agree with you , every last word of it. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megagyger Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Put P Grayson in A McCabes yard and i'm sure he'd achieve similar results with the same donkeys. are you grayson in disguise. training horses is a personal thing. every trainer has his/her own way of doing things. put stoute in graysons yard and im sure he would change a lot of things. like that old saying a good tradesman never blame's his tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Playing Devil's Advocate here... The Magic Of Rio - Wins claimer off a mark of 90 as a 2yo, is claimed by Grayson. Form drops dramatically and becomes rated 40. Switches to David Evans. Places once but only beats a couple home on her next three starts. Did Peter Grayson ruin her? Or was it that the horse doesn't have it in her anymore? Perhaps a mixture of the two. The two example listed above by CC are pretty valid, and not for a moment I'm saying he's a good trainer at all. Would love to get an insight into his yard, ATR do some investigating etc as it is fairly interesting what is happening there. The likes of Ruth Carr and Paul Midgley being roped in with him though, which was the original point of the thread is nigh on ridiculous and I'm willing to stand by that point until the cows come home :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc75 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Playing Devil's Advocate here... The Magic Of Rio - Wins claimer off a mark of 90 as a 2yo, is claimed by Grayson. Form drops dramatically and becomes rated 40. Switches to David Evans. Places once but only beats a couple home on her next three starts. Did Peter Grayson ruin her? Or was it that the horse doesn't have it in her anymore? Perhaps a mixture of the two. The two example listed above by CC are pretty valid, and not for a moment I'm saying he's a good trainer at all. Would love to get an insight into his yard, ATR do some investigating etc as it is fairly interesting what is happening there. The likes of Ruth Carr and Paul Midgley being roped in with him though, which was the original point of the thread is nigh on ridiculous and I'm willing to stand by that point until the cows come home :ok I understand what you're saying about the Magic of Rio, however if it was just one or two horses from the Grayson yard then fine, understandable. However it isn't. You could go through the majority (certainly a very high percentage) and see a very similar pattern so IMO this can't be put down to bad horses. I do however totally agree regarding an insight into his yard - that would be fascinating viewing without doubt :D I am involved in coaching youngsters (and adults) athletics at all levels and irrespective of the ability of the individual we always see some kind of improvement in young/novice athletes. If it is an already developed athlete or even an older athlete on the downgrade there are ways of maintaining form and results which we do manage to achieve - and we are not by international/national standards the best coaches out there. This is why from my perspective, blaming horses/facilities/other staff members etc etc in Grayson's yard doesn't wash it with me as ultimately it boils down to his management of the operation and the horses talent. His results have been diabolical over a long period of time now, not just a few months, so something is fundamentally wrong with the yard - once again, in my humble opinion ;) I do not have the same strength of views of the likes of Ruth Carr/Paul Midgely and other mentioned on this thread to be honest, although I wouldn't be rushing to put my last sovereign on one of their animals :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc75 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I choked on some mustard whilst reading that mate and got some up my nose' date=' jesus it stings... [/quote'] Haha, just read this - made me laugh. Hope your hooter is feeling better now lad :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterosso Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Do any of the 'critics' here even know how to train a horse? Assuming you don't, you're in no position to judge a trainers abilities. Too many things to take into account. Plus :lol at the mention of Ruth Carr. I'd love to see someone justify calling her a bad trainer last June/July. It makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Do any of the 'critics' here even know how to train a horse? Assuming you don't, you're in no position to judge a trainers abilities. Too many things to take into account. Plus :lol at the mention of Ruth Carr. I'd love to see someone justify calling her a bad trainer last June/July. It makes no sense. Ruth Carr from last 160 odd runners.. 0/160 Thats just like saying Liverpool are still a great team because they were prolific back in the 80's... On current form, it has to be said Ruth Carr's record is etrocious.. Of course she will hit form again, but to not have 1 winner in so long is sort of inexcusable in my opinion. If she is such a capable trainer, why such the bad spell? Its not like she got a new bunch of horses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Do any of the 'critics' here even know how to train a horse? Assuming you don't, you're in no position to judge a trainers abilities. Too many things to take into account. Plus :lol at the mention of Ruth Carr. I'd love to see someone justify calling her a bad trainer last June/July. It makes no sense. Everyone is entitled to judge, if you go by your thinking there wouldn't be many debates at all if people only stuck to what they knew inside out. Just like you criticising a sporting team/individual and then being told to button it because you werent a footballer, cricketer, jockey etc etc. However, i do agree about the mention of Ruth Carr. She is by no means the greatest but does have some sustained spells of good form amongst the northern tracks every now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc75 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Do any of the 'critics' here even know how to train a horse? Assuming you don't' date=' you're in no position to judge a trainers abilities. Too many things to take into account.[/quote'] Would be a very boring world if we all had the same opinion monte. Perhaps you are right about there being more to training a horse than we're aware of. However when comparing the achieved performance of (a number of) horses claimed from different yards to the performance Grayson manages to get out of them then, knowledge of horse training or not, it appears blatantly obvious something is amiss with his setup. As he is the one masquerading as being the horse trainers surely the responsibility lies with him?? As I say, boring world if we all agreed... :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ruth Carr from last 160 odd runners.. 0/160 Thats just like saying Liverpool are still a great team because they were prolific back in the 80's... On current form, it has to be said Ruth Carr's record is etrocious.. Of course she will hit form again, but to not have 1 winner in so long is sort of inexcusable in my opinion. If she is such a capable trainer, why such the bad spell? Its not like she got a new bunch of horses Henry Cecil from 2000 to 2007 had only a handful of winners. Does that mean during those years he became an atrocious trainer during that time? Would you find it inexcusable for him to go 7 years without a GR1 winner having mopped up year in year out during the 70s , 80s and 90s ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculus Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Do any of the 'critics' here even know how to train a horse? Assuming you don't, you're in no position to judge a trainers abilities. Too many things to take into account. Plus :lol at the mention of Ruth Carr. I'd love to see someone justify calling her a bad trainer last June/July. It makes no sense. Don't know a lot about training horses no, but I don't think it takes a horse training mastermind to deduce that whatever Peter Grayson is doing it is less beneficial in terms of winning races than pretty much any other trainer in the land. I would agree that there are many things that need to be taken into account such as viruses and infastructure, to name but two. But Grayson has been out of form for so long that if it is a bug in the yard and he hasn't been able to clear it in this length of time then he probably shouldn't be training, and it's not as if he's completely unsupported financially as he does pay upwards of 5K for horses out of claimers. As I stated in my first post I wouldn't agree with Aidy's contentions with regards to the rest of the trainers mentioned, most of whom I think do reasonably well with little resources. Henry Cecil from 2000 to 2007 had only a handful of winners. Does that mean during those years he became an atrocious trainer during that time? Would you find it inexcusable for him to go 7 years without a GR1 winner having mopped up year in year out during the 70s , 80s and 90s ? Might have something to do with Sheikh Mo moving virtually all of his horses out of the yard and issues in Henry's private life, still be interesting to see what the yard's strike rate was between that time - I would imagine it was still fairly respectable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I've been so busy the last couple of days that I've not had time to study any races in depth..........just had a good look at the last at Wolves to see if i can find a BBotD I settled on an outsider, Lady Excel, dropping in class..........until I checked out the record of her trainer, one Brian Rothwell.............:loon Last 5 years - 0 winners from nearly 200 runs Total place prize money - about £ 5000...........that's £ 1000 a year........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers The facts really don't lie i'm afraid and I have to agree whole-heartedly with AIDY and calculus here and find it impossible for excuses to be made. Peter Grayson's record is woeful as already stated - but you just have to look at what has happened (in a very short space of time) to some of the decent horses he has picked up and if you can show me one horse in his stable that is progressive or is even able to maintain the form shown for previous trainers I would be completely surprised. Just a couple of examples of horses he has picked up in recent months and ruined: Dingaan: claimed in November from Andrew Balding having won that race (finished 2nd time before in class 4 handicap from a mark of 80) - in the space of 3 months the horse has plummeted to a mark of only 65 and has yet to finish better than 6th in seven races for the trainer (finished stone last in three of them) Avonvalley: 2nd from a mark of 68 in handicap company and won claimer in November for George Baker before being claimed by Grayson - has since plummeted to a mark of only 50 in 3 months and progressively getting worse - finishing absolute last when last seen. There really are no excuses here - even if it is down to facilities, other staff members etc etc as claimed by erhaab - ultimately he is the trainer and is the person in charge of the well-being and fitness of the animal so bottom line it falls on his shoulders. I am pretty certain he won't have the worst facilities in the country therefore it boils down to him being an absolutely abysmal trainer in my opinion and I personally wouldn't back one of his horses with stolen money :ok Agree with every word. Peter Grayson is an embarassment to racing. Vhujon isn't that bad an animal, I wonder if it will ever win a race again since recently joining him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Maybe bad form bumping up an old thread but... Ruth Carr just had a winner at 12/1, :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterosso Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Thoroughly deserved. Hope she kicks on now and comes back to form. She's the opposite to a bad trainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers She's been running her horses right through the bad patch so she'll have a yard full of well handicapped ones when they start hitting form again ! Trouble is that everyone will know it...............:spank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenyatta Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Thoroughly deserved. Hope she kicks on now and comes back to form. She's the opposite to a bad trainer. Totally agree :ok Every trainer has bad patches, some that can last months, and the trainers without rich owners can only work with the horses they have whatever their grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Took her 200 runners to get 1 winner.. Masterful training :lol Give me a few horses and ill get a few winners in 200 runners.. To say she is a very good trainer is beyond belief, very good trainers are the ones that win all year round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Took her 200 runners to get 1 winner.. Masterful training :lol Give me a few horses and ill get a few winners in 200 runners.. To say she is a very good trainer is beyond belief, very good trainers are the ones that win all year round Aidy, I'm not wholly against many of your arguments, but cant help but feel your being a bit childish here. Ruth Carr has proven she can train horses, and you could say she's going through a poor run. However, lets look at the facts. To keep things fair, lets look at the period before she went "out of form", therefore we are looking up until August 2010 Note: Place s/r does not include winners Period: September - March Runners: 334 Winners: 12 Places: 46 Win S/R: 3.6% Place S/R: 13.8% Period: April - August Runners: 606 Winners: 66 Places: 120 Win S/R: 10.8% Place S/R: 19.8% So we can quite clearly see that in her whole (short) career, Ruth Carr has never had any success over the winter, and peaks in the summer. So is it a surprise to see her struggling .... no, not really. Interestingly, since she went "out of form" (August 2010), she has still maintained an average place s/r of 13.8%, incidentally, exactly as her s/r was when she was in form from the period of time between September and March .... Not had as many runners as usual either. So, using the above as pretty conclusive evidence, although she has been starved of winners, I would certainly not say she is out of form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtw1 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Interesting opinions here !! Had a look at Ruth Carr's record since Feb '08 [from when she started i assume ] and she definately is worth avoiding from September through to March if those 3 seasons are anything to go by . However such has been the dramatic loss of form from her runners since August last year until now i really think there's been a serious problem in the stable , a virus most likely imo. In such a small yard something like that would take months to eradicate so after todays winner lets hope she's through the worst . With that in mind i'd be loath to call her a 'bad trainer' tbh , now if you want a trainer who had REALLY BAD horses let me put forward a man who has thankfully gave the game up but his overall training record is something short of amazing - Donal Nolan - Flat record over the past 5 seasons = 0 wins , 2 2nd's from 261 runners. NH record = 0 wins , 0 2nd's from 32 runners Now was he a bad trainer ? did he have some poor creatures in his stable? , or both ? Thankfully we'll never know now :rollin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mileni4uk Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 I have a whole lot different opinion on what a bad trainer is. For me bad trainer is not one who can't buy a winner for years (Those are easy. I don't mind them at all. You simply scratch their horses when you look at a race.), but one who is inconsistent and as such affects the punter. Let's give an example. Ferdy Murphy, Ian Williams, Garry Moore to name a few. All of them can win with a horse showing form figures 0P08P for the yard and then out of nowhere a gamble and a win. All of them quite capable of performing a lay job too and a horse that has every chance on the book runs appalingly (usually connected to a nice and easy pre-race drift on Betfair). Jonjo O'Neil another very poor trainer for the standard of horses he gets every year. Henrietta Knight :eek OMG! I don't know how she was in the past, but absolutely clueless since I've started following this sport and getting worse. On the flat there's no one "better" than Richard Fahey, who is worshiped by the whole racing community. And I just can't stand one bit the way his horses run. Not only on the flat. There've been so many hurdlers that look absolutely nailed on to win and they just don't (Of course with the usual drifts on Betfair, but no surprises there, eh?). Then for no apparent reason they reappear after a race or two and when the yard is all over them on Betfair, they somehow manage to win at a canter. And for the record .. Barney Curley should've been banned ages ago ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartd14 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Interesting opinions here !! Had a look at Ruth Carr's record since Feb '08 [from when she started i assume ] and she definately is worth avoiding from September through to March if those 3 seasons are anything to go by . However such has been the dramatic loss of form from her runners since August last year until now i really think there's been a serious problem in the stable , a virus most likely imo. In such a small yard something like that would take months to eradicate so after todays winner lets hope she's through the worst . With that in mind i'd be loath to call her a 'bad trainer' tbh , now if you want a trainer who had REALLY BAD horses let me put forward a man who has thankfully gave the game up but his overall training record is something short of amazing - Donal Nolan - Flat record over the past 5 seasons = 0 wins , 2 2nd's from 261 runners. NH record = 0 wins , 0 2nd's from 32 runners Now was he a bad trainer ? did he have some poor creatures in his stable? , or both ? Thankfully we'll never know now :rollin With regard to Ruth Carr, I'm really not sure her form is that bad. Dont have the figures to hand, but I think the only difference between this year and last year is 2 winners, as she has had the same percentage of horses placing ...? As for Donal Nolan .... :lol. Dont think any of his horses ever went off under 50/1 ! He did have a couple run close mind you :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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