Aidymac Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Chapman Midgley Grayson Carr How in gods name are these 4 trainers able to survive? How are they still training? How are the owners not fuming at how bad the horses do with the stable? Financially how is it viable for them to carry on? I know Ruth Carr sometimes has a good spell and Midgley does ok at Redcar but Chapman and Grayson are possibly the most horrendous trainers i have come across... I think Grayson a few years back used be prolific??? Where has it all gone wrong? Just wondering if people have any answers for some of these questions as i find it interesting.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_eastern_ram Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ruth Carr was on fire at the start of the flat season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Bit unfair Aidy on a couple of counts. Ruth Carr has had plenty of winners over the past few seasons, although obviously hit a rough patch recently. She'll be back at some point I'm sure. As for "owners being pissed off", I believe a fair few of her horses are owned by her Grandad. Even so, she's trained a fair few winners and perhaps owners don't want to jump ship immediately. If you mean Michael Chapman, he's had 2 winners in the past two weeks, and lots of his horses running well recently. Peter Grayson used to have a millionaire backing his yard, especially when the yard was going well. Still think he owns a few with him still but most have gone now. For how he makes money? I haven't a clue. He must be getting some investment from somewhere as it's not uncommon for him to buy horses in claimers for £10,000. Paul Midgley isn't a bad trainer, just another having a lean spell. Accumulating £580,000 in prize money on all surfaces in the UK in the past 5 seasons, won't put him in the bottom 20% of trainers. Got to remember is that I'd probably say the majority of Owners have little interest in making shedloads of money from them. Most take it as something fun to be involved with, syndicates and the like included. And if they get some prize money back, then they've had a great day. Maybe it's a local trainer, or one that they get along with. If they wanted to make money, then surely they'd be sending it to a more high profile handler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoyRooney Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I think they have bad horses,which doesn't help..:ok If they are not making money from the game well then i think they are in for the love of the game like a trainer such as anne stokell,and i don't think you can knock them too much for that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjkmak Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ruth Carr was on fire at the start of the flat season. Her runner in the 2.10 today has been heavily backed, 14/1 into 7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billvernon Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I think the comment regarding it being a hobby hits the nail on the head - Owners want to see their horse run and for a fee the trainer gets the horse in the race and they get to see there horse run if it comes in it is a bonus .Its the same as the Guys on the local Boating pond with the big powerful toy boat that may crash and sink or motor blows etc and is expensive to repair but they get it repaired and are there the next weekend doing the same thing its fun its something to do which they enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ruth Carr has not had a winner in her last 161 runners, quite frankly that is abysmal and inexcusable in my opinion.. I know she had a good spell before but any trainer with such an abysmal run , there has to be something wrong there.. Her last winner was on the 30th of July 2010... I would agree Mr Midgley is not a bad trainer on his day, he does get the odd winner... Chapman has had 2 winners in his last 70 odd runners, both of them coming very recently... Again i think he is an abysmal trainer, thats my own personal opinion!! Grayson has had 1 winner in his last 172 runners... And over half of them his horses finished dead last :$ Apart from Midgley, the other 3 trainers in my eyes are absolutely useless!! Of course Ruth Carr's horses are going to be backed, the "law-of-average" punters are on the prowl.. :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjkmak Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers God you can be a grumpy old man sometimes:tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers God you can be a grumpy old man sometimes:tongue2 :rollin:rollin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Ruth Carr has not had a winner in her last 161 runners, quite frankly that is abysmal and inexcusable in my opinion.. I know she had a good spell before but any trainer with such an abysmal run , there has to be something wrong there.. Her last winner was on the 30th of July 2010... I would agree Mr Midgley is not a bad trainer on his day, he does get the odd winner... Chapman has had 2 winners in his last 70 odd runners, both of them coming very recently... Again i think he is an abysmal trainer, thats my own personal opinion!! Grayson has had 1 winner in his last 172 runners... And over half of them his horses finished dead last :$ Apart from Midgley, the other 3 trainers in my eyes are absolutely useless!! Of course Ruth Carr's horses are going to be backed, the "law-of-average" punters are on the prowl.. :loon What are you suggesting? We revoke trainers licences who don't get a winner in a certain amount of runners? I don't see the problem from a betting point of view of severely out of form horses, you would merely eliminate them from your study of the race almost immediately. I admit Grayson's yard there is something amiss, and Ruth Carr's is probably suffering a bit from the success they had a couple of years ago. Michael Chapman only trains 20 horses, most being cheap buys, they're hardly going to be winning at Cheltenham. I would agree Mr Midgley is not a bad trainer on his day, he does get the odd winner...:rollin:rollin £600,000 in prize money is hardly the "odd winner" Don't see any problem with there being trainers who don't get winners every week. Perhaps they're not exactly financially making tonnes of profit, but don't see why we should be too critical, it's their money to spend after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers What are you suggesting? We revoke trainers licences who don't get a winner in a certain amount of runners? I don't see the problem from a betting point of view of severely out of form horses, you would merely eliminate them from your study of the race almost immediately. I admit Grayson's yard there is something amiss, and Ruth Carr's is probably suffering a bit from the success they had a couple of years ago. Michael Chapman only trains 20 horses, most being cheap buys, they're hardly going to be winning at Cheltenham. :rollin:rollin £600,000 in prize money is hardly the "odd winner" Don't see any problem with there being trainers who don't get winners every week. Perhaps they're not exactly financially making tonnes of profit, but don't see why we should be too critical, it's their money to spend after all. If Paul Nicholls did not have a winner in 2 months or so, im sure you would be critical... You think £600,000 in the life-span of a trainer is a lot of cash? How many years is Midgley in the game? There are some races where you can pick up £600,000 in 1 single race, i wouldnt be looking too much into that.. I am looking at current form Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers If Paul Nicholls did not have a winner in 2 months or so, im sure you would be critical... You think £600,000 in the life-span of a trainer is a lot of cash? How many years is Midgley in the game? There are some races where you can pick up £600,000 in 1 single race, i wouldnt be looking too much into that.. I am looking at current form Paul Nicholls is a multi-million pound operation, with a stable full of top class perfomers. Comparing Paul Nicholls and Paul Midgley is a bit ridiculous. And the £600,000 stat is from the last five seasons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trotter Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I suppose there's also a bit of 'market forces' operating here You send a horse to Paul Nicholls and you probably pay a thousand quid a week for the privilege..........Grayson might only charge a hundred ! The owner has to cut his cloth according to his means....... Grayson is probably charging rock bottom training fees and that's his 'market', prople who can't afford expensive horses or expensive training fees. As it happens, if you look at grayson's horses most of them appear to be owned by various members of his family, a couple of mates, a couple of companies which might be his own companies........ Maybe he's independently wealthy ?..........maybe he has other business interests ? I think you've probably got to look at each case individually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpo Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I think all the above trainers are pretty rubbish (at the moment). I do think though they can only train what they have, and what they have are very ordinary. It would be interesting to see what one of the above mentioned trainers could do with a group class horse. I think the big trainers will always get the best horses and vice versa with the little trainers. Every now and again, a little trainer may be lucky enough to unearth a gem but more likely than not is that they will continue to get rubbish horses that can only run and a crappy level. It must be hard to motivate yourself to train horses that you know can only run upto a certain level (that being maybe class 4 tops) for very little prize money. I know most trainers do it for the love of the sport but it must be very nice knowing that you have a certain amount of horses in your yard that can challenge in all of the worlds top races and compete for millions of pounds of prize money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I think its a bit harsh to call them bad trainers. The mentioned trainers obviously know how to train as they've had success in the past. I think its just a case of poor quality horses or viruses. Question , If you put Sir M Stoute in Peter Graysons yard and vice versa with everything still the same , horses , staff , facilities etc , would the results be reversed ? Personally i think no. It would be P Grayson having the winners and Sir M Stoute having the losers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I think its a bit harsh to call them bad trainers. The mentioned trainers obviously know how to train as they've had success in the past. I think its just a case of poor quality horses or viruses. Question , If you put Sir M Stoute in Peter Graysons yard and vice versa with everything still the same , horses , staff , facilities etc , would the results be reversed ? Personally i think no. It would be P Grayson having the winners and Sir M Stoute having the losers. I do not think its fair to say that Peter Grayson is as good a trainer as Sir Michael Stoute!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyjkmak Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I don't think thats the point, trainers like Grayson might be lucky to get one or two high class horses throughout their career, whilst Stoute is guranteed to have several a season. Its not a level playing field so its unfair to draw comparisons. It would be interesting to see how Stoute would fare if he had the low grade stuff that Grayson has to deal with, maybe he would be an 'Bad Trainer' too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I'm not saying P Grayson is as good as Sir Sir M Stoute. What i'm saying is that if you put Sir M Stoute in P Graysons yard the results would be similar to what P Grayson is achieving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south_eastern_ram Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I'm backing one of Midgley's today and when looking further into it he runs most of his lowly rated horses at this time of year. Nearly all his better horses have been put away for the winter and this is where he gets the bulk of his winners from (as you'd expect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I don't think thats the point, trainers like Grayson might be lucky to get one or two high class horses throughout their career, whilst Stoute is guranteed to have several a season. Its not a level playing field so its unfair to draw comparisons. It would be interesting to see how Stoute would fare if he had the low grade stuff that Grayson has to deal with, maybe he would be an 'Bad Trainer' too. Ok then... Out of his last 100 runners , 66 of them have been either last or 2nd last...!!! It is of my opinion and it is fair to say he is a bad trainer!! Look at the amount of donkeys Alan McCabe gets into his yard but he is a good trainer and he gets a win out of most of his horses.. I couldnt care if Grayson was decent in the past, right now he is s***e. I thought horse racing was about being competitive, how do we know Grayson and co are not laying all their horses on betfair and making a fortune? There should be an enquiry held to trainers who perform so abysmally , that is just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers I'm not saying P Grayson is as good as Sir Sir M Stoute. What i'm saying is that if you put Sir M Stoute in P Graysons yard the results would be similar to what P Grayson is achieving. That is pure speculation! How do you know that may i ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Wouldn't agree that all those mentioned above are 'bad trainers'... But there can be little defending Peter Grayson,been operating at a strike rate of something like 1 or 2 % in the last few seasons and it's not as if the horses he has are absolutely terrible, any horse he picks up in claimers seem to lose about 20lbs of ability when under his care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBoyRooney Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers That is pure speculation! How do you know that may i ask? But therefore,you saying they are bad trainers is also purely speculation,the point he makes ,is that it is possible that a top trainer,using grayson's facilities and horses would not get better results.You simply would never know.. .You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear..:nana Ps there are some bad trainers out there,i think the best way to judge bad trainers is when horses leave them and go on and perform well with another trainer.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers But therefore,you saying they are bad trainers is also purely speculation,the point he makes ,is that it is possible that a top trainer,using grayson's facilities and horses would not get better results.You simply would never know.. .You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear..:nana No it is not speculation.. It is fact.. Results talk and as Calculus already said, there is proof that his horses perform 20 pounds worse when Grayson has them than before Grayson buys the horse in a claimer ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Put P Grayson in A McCabes yard and i'm sure he'd achieve similar results with the same donkeys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Put P Grayson in A McCabes yard and i'm sure he'd achieve similar results with the same donkeys. All im hearing from you is pure speculation and something we will never know... Try talking some facts .. You think Sir Michael Stoute would do as bad as Grayson if he had Grayson's horses? hahaha im sure stoute would have more than 1 winner in 170 runners no matter what horses he had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Put P Grayson in A McCabes yard and i'm sure he'd achieve similar results with the same donkeys. Can't see how you can say that? I'd say Alan McCabe has had more winners in the last two weeks than Grayson has had in the last two seasons. And there is no discernable difference in the quality of the horses between the two yards in my opinion. Take a horse like Dingaan as an exemplifier of Grayson's ineptitude, was a good solid 80s rated handicapper when with Andrew Balding, is now rated 65 with PG and finished last in claimer on it's penultimate start (and has finished last or second last on 5 out of 7 starts for Grayson). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Can't see how you can say that? I'd say Alan McCabe has had more winners in the last two weeks than Grayson has had in the last two seasons. And there is no discernable difference in the quality of the horses between the two yards in my opinion. Take a horse like Dingaan as an exemplifier of Grayson's ineptitude' date=' was a good solid 80s rated handicapper when with Andrew Balding, is now rated 65 with PG and finished last in claimer on it's penultimate start (and has finished last or second last on 5 out of 7 starts for Grayson).[/quote'] Couldnt have said it better :ok And there are many more examples of that if you look through his animals.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calculus Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers Couldnt have said it better :ok And there are many more examples of that if you look through his animals.. I know. Must be a seriously depressing yard to work in... Day in day out getting up at the crack of dawn just to finish last everytime you go to the racecourse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Re: Bad Trainers When training what does a Sir M Stoute or P Nicholls physically do differently to a P Grayson ? If anything P Grayson may be more hands on whereas the other 2 watch from a distance. ( only an assumption as they're both physically out of shape whereas as P Grayson is slim and in his 30s) I believe its more the horses , facilities , staff , enviorment rather than the trainer himself. Remember Mikey Heaton Ellis the wheelchair confined trainer doring the 90s , the other components of the operation made it a success wheras Ellis was just the guy in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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