Are online poker rooms fair?

[xcode]

I know this question has been posted over and over again on all sort of sites, but let me share my experience. For the last six month, I sign up and played at several poker rooms: pokerstars, fulltiltpoker, everestpoker, betfair poker, betdag poker, bet365 poker. And every time the same story happens over and over again. I sign up with a small amount like 25$ and play .25/.50 limit. Shortly after the sign up I get all sorts of lucky hands and lucky rivers. I've turned those 25$ into over 100$ each time I sign up in just a couple of days. And after a week or so of winning I start loosing. All sort of unbelievable rivers come to my opponents and I cannot win even with AA or KK. Then I think: ok my game turned bad. BUT if I go to a new poker room and sign up, I am winning all over again. For a week or so and then the same thing happens as before I start loosing in that poker room. I really doubt poker rooms are fair anymore. Anyone has the same experience?

[AJ]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? best aanswer i've seen to this

I love these 'online poker is rigged' threads. There's a simple way to argue that it probably isn't. 1) If it's rigged, it's rigged for everyone - so it makes no difference 2) If you think it's just rigged against you then you should be making a pyschiatrists appointment pronto.

[nioreh]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? I think the problem is how people underestimate variance because variance in holdem is huge. HUGE. HUGE!! Also play with a larger bankroll. If you start playing with half a buyin, well, I can only laugh in your face. You need at least 20, I recommend at least 30 if your not sure of your game. Im an awesome winning player and all that, when I was 12tabling PokerStars, my biggest losing streak was 17 buyins down. Another lucky night I won 20 buyins. Variance is huge.

[pakelly]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? I don't believe online poker rooms are rigged in favour of certain individuals but i do think the dealing of cards isn't random especially at ongame. I'll explain why: If there are 3 of a suit on the board then 90-95% of the time i will be dealt 2 of that suit the next hand. Many of my friends have watched me play and are astounded to see this happening. When i played at pokerroom (now merged with bwin) in their green and silver tournaments for a long period of time in the texas holdem ones when we got to the bubble any away player who was all in preflop would lose no matter what cards they had or were up against. Then all of a sudden these away players started winning hands. Who knows why? Also at ongame, if a player is dealt AA then this hand seems to fly around the table being dealt to all and sundry. I've lost count of the amount of times i've been dealt AA on 3 or more occassions in a sng. As for losing with AA, well mate it happens to us all. It isn't bullet proof. In the past week i've lost with AA twice against A7 and 55 all in preflop and i've also cracked AA with 97os (i flopped 999). Anyway that's my 2 pence worth for what it's worth ;)

[AJ]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

I don't believe online poker rooms are rigged in favour of certain individuals but i do think the dealing of cards isn't random especially at ongame. I'll explain why: If there are 3 of a suit on the board then 90-95% of the time i will be dealt 2 of that suit the next hand. Many of my friends have watched me play and are astounded to see this happening. When i played at pokerroom (now merged with bwin) in their green and silver tournaments for a long period of time in the texas holdem ones when we got to the bubble any away player who was all in preflop would lose no matter what cards they had or were up against. Then all of a sudden these away players started winning hands. Who knows why? Also at ongame, if a player is dealt AA then this hand seems to fly around the table being dealt to all and sundry. I've lost count of the amount of times i've been dealt AA on 3 or more occassions in a sng. As for losing with AA, well mate it happens to us all. It isn't bullet proof. In the past week i've lost with AA twice against A7 and 55 all in preflop and i've also cracked AA with 97os (i flopped 999). Anyway that's my 2 pence worth for what it's worth ;)

Do you have a poker tracker database with a significant data sample size that shows this or is it just memory ? Memory can be difficult here as the human mind tends to remember and focus on the unusal and forget the normal

[Esox]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? Pretty sure this is down to variance, i reckon to much reputation at stake for rigging.

[trips]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? No online poker isnt rigged, why should any of the online sites rig the games for the sake of drawing in a few low level players, if news got out that even a few low level games were rigged not only would they be in serious trouble with the police. a multi million business would go down the pan overnight, having said that ive always kept an open mind to software flaws, there could be something wrong sometimes and even the best heads cant find any problems, this has happened 3 times in the past so its fair to just not write off the chances of sites having problems in the future. the problem with playing online tournaments are you will be forced to move all in or call all ins,most of the time i will be big fav PF but if you play too many PF all ins even if your favourite you need to get very lucky to stay in the tournament, thats up to the individual, if i believe i am better than most of the players i will try and play more poker after the flop. if i think there are a lot of great players in the game i will be far more willing to play coin flips.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? There have obviously been certain security issues with various online poker sites, and no-one can deny that. But in terms of problems with the RNGF, I don't think anyone could seriously argue that cards are not dealt in a fair and random manner. Any discrepancies would be quickly picked up by all the tracking programmes.

[Valiant23]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

But in terms of problems with the RNGF, I don't think anyone could seriously argue that cards are not dealt in a fair and random manner. Any discrepancies would be quickly picked up by all the tracking programmes.

This is where I come in.:D I've had a running argument with GaF and Slapdash for as long as I've been on here about this. For a long time, I accepted their arguments. Even while I was away, I didn't argue with them. However, two days ago I was about to PM them both because I have a new theory. When the poker rooms provide an udit to say that their RnG is fair, they do so by showing that each hand (over a period of time) is dealt 0.14% of the total (I think). Now while this may be statistically correct, what I would argue is; On my table, there should be a pack of 52 cards. These 52 cards should not, in any way shape or form be influenced by what goes on at any other table. Can anyone convince me, truthfully, that the WSOP would pass these 'audits'? I'll tell you now that the answer is no, because the pack should be a single entity, and for as long as the online poker rooms try to prove that they are being fair with these audits, all it tells me is that somewhere, in order to meet a statistical mean, the RnG will be flawed.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? I'll let slapdash answer that if he sees it with some maths, but basically your theory is ridiculous.

[glceud]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

I know this question has been posted over and over again on all sort of sites, but let me share my experience. For the last six month, I sign up and played at several poker rooms: pokerstars, fulltiltpoker, everestpoker, betfair poker, betdag poker, bet365 poker. And every time the same story happens over and over again. I sign up with a small amount like 25$ and play .25/.50 limit. Shortly after the sign up I get all sorts of lucky hands and lucky rivers. I've turned those 25$ into over 100$ each time I sign up in just a couple of days. And after a week or so of winning I start loosing. All sort of unbelievable rivers come to my opponents and I cannot win even with AA or KK. Then I think: ok my game turned bad. BUT if I go to a new poker room and sign up, I am winning all over again. For a week or so and then the same thing happens as before I start loosing in that poker room. I really doubt poker rooms are fair anymore. Anyone has the same experience?

You are not alone by any means with this conclusion however, I finally put it down to the fact that other players are better at reading your play either fairly or through using software. While they initialy have no advantage after a few sessions they have enough data to beat your (or my) game. Poker is very marginal to most of us and the difference between 10 players on a level playing field against even one with an unfair advantage is absolutley massive. If you have'nt tried Rush of Full Tilt try it. You will win, then you will break even then you will lose.(get out when you start to break even;)) Interestingly(or not) I usually last more than a week before the leveling of, then losing at any new site, level, variant etc etc. So there's no way its the site saying "oh he's new" lets give him sexed up river cards.

[alecs_p11]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? my opinion is that entraction platform are the most fair

[TheCerebralAssassin]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? I used to think Ladbrokes had a personal issue with me. :rollin

[Marlin]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? xcode, The pattern that you mention I could have written about myself, from my own experience, albeit in sit and go’s and for different stakes. The pattern repeats itself over and over again, over every site that I have played on, yet we are still supposed to believe that we may be the next Dwan or Ivey. Yeah, right. I don’t believe in poker anymore. I’m doing my own “zero to something” personal challenge on FTP, which is inevitably following the same pattern and then that is it. I am maintaining the staking plan and play, that built up my bank in the first place whilst inevitably watching it disappear. I‘ve wasted enough time on poker now. I’ve given it too many chances. I just don’t believe in it or the people that promote it anymore.

[gettingfatter]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

You are not alone by any means with this conclusion however, I finally put it down to the fact that other players are better at reading your play either fairly or through using software. While they initialy have no advantage after a few sessions they have enough data to beat your (or my) game.

if this is the case why dont you go and buy 100k rail heaven hands, Ivey doesnt use a hud, you will crush him. You probably just arent as good as you think you are.

[glceud]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

if this is the case why dont you go and buy 100k rail heaven hands' date=' Ivey doesnt use a hud, you will crush him. You probably just arent as good as you think you are.[/quote'] Idiot, read the post, I'm sure i said other people are better at reading other peoples than me which might just be a small part of Ivey's superior ability. Any one who visits PL poker reguraly will know that I am well aware of exactly how good I am at poker:eyes

[theterror1909]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? If the cards were so random.Why do the same tourneys last roughly the same time.It defo is not rigged for certain players to win though. Cash games are a joke online.Every second hand is either a flush,straight or full house. This is not common when playing live

[Spooner]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? Do they not last the same because because of the blind structures? :unsure

[Karamzin]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? experienced more or less similar story with fulltiltpoker, everestpoker, partypoker, ub

[theterror1909]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

Do they not last the same because because of the blind structures? :unsure

You think all live tourneys last roughly the same time,cmon mate wake up :unsure

[w1nsome]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

You think all live tourneys last roughly the same time' date='cmon mate wake up :unsure[/quote'] -------------- Just look at the P/S Sunday Million for instance with thousands of entrants weekly--final table finishes each week between 8..9am u/k time regardless....now you'd think they'd be a time varience of at least of hours not minutes ????

[Scooper]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? Wherever there's gaming money involved there will be people looking to cheat. In my experience collusion exists and usually in short handed cash games. This can often be spotted by unusual betting patterns. Playing long handed counteracts collusion or playing short handed on Rush Full Tilt when the composition of the table changes every hand. I have also suspected inhouse cheating on some of the smaller sites. My game of choice PL Omaha Hi Lo is very high action and likely to attract anyone with an 'edge'. The bigger the site the more confident you can be things are 'kosher'. If you beat the rake why worry? Losers will always blame anything but themselves - I've lost count of the times I've been accused of being a house player!

I know this question has been posted over and over again on all sort of sites, but let me share my experience. For the last six month, I sign up and played at several poker rooms: pokerstars, fulltiltpoker, everestpoker, betfair poker, betdag poker, bet365 poker. And every time the same story happens over and over again. I sign up with a small amount like 25$ and play .25/.50 limit. Shortly after the sign up I get all sorts of lucky hands and lucky rivers. I've turned those 25$ into over 100$ each time I sign up in just a couple of days. And after a week or so of winning I start loosing. All sort of unbelievable rivers come to my opponents and I cannot win even with AA or KK. Then I think: ok my game turned bad. BUT if I go to a new poker room and sign up, I am winning all over again. For a week or so and then the same thing happens as before I start loosing in that poker room. I really doubt poker rooms are fair anymore. Anyone has the same experience?

[reb33]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? Is there a difference in the terms "juiced" and "rigged" when discussing the merits of whether online poker is fixed or not? I'm stunned at the number of people that think it's not right but continue to play:unsure

[bacardirum]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? I always had the impression when I first joined a site I was dealt with monster hands, particularly back in the very early days when party poker and empire poker were the two biggest poker sites. To be honest I think back then this sort of thing really went on, then bad cards, re-registered with other family card, monster hands, then bad, re-register with friends card, monster hands, winning a lot of pots, it was pretty blatant to see. From a business point of view it makes sense, they want you to enjoy the site, first impressions count afterall, keep you coming back for more. Not saying 100% this happened, but it did really seem like it for new registrations, dont think such a think would happen now (if it happened at all), too much to lose, and so many players online anyway.

[slapdash]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

-------------- Just look at the P/S Sunday Million for instance with thousands of entrants weekly--final table finishes each week between 8..9am u/k time regardless....now you'd think they'd be a time varience of at least of hours not minutes ????

Actually, I think that a range of an hour or so is about what I'd expect. Yes, if you think about the thousands of entries, your first thought is that there should be a huge variability in the way the tournament plays out, but I think that's probably just an illusion. Think in terms of the number of chips in play at the end of the tournament, as a multiple of the big blind. I haven't kept records or anything, but my memory is that the number of big blinds in play doesn't vary that much, either in online tournaments or live ones (though I have a lot more experience online). Typical would probably be something like 20-40 big blinds in play, maybe fewer in a turbo, more in a tournament with long blind periods. Anything very far outside that range would strike me as unusual. In the Sunday Million, the blinds double roughly every three blind levels, or 45 minutes. So it doesn't surprise me that there's a period of one hour during which the tournament almost always ends. As I said, I have a lot more experience online, so theoretically it's possible that my intuition has been influenced by the rigged poker sites. But it should be possible to, say, find out how many big blinds were in play at the end of each WSOP Main Event. I doubt the number will vary a huge amount.

[glceud]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

To be honest I think back then this sort of thing really went on' date=' Not saying 100% this happened, but it did really seem like it for new registrations, dont think such a think would happen now (if it happened at all), too much to lose, and so many players online anyway.[/quote'] I think a lot of things happened in the early days online that just couldnt happen now. I know people who think online casinos were even worse. Regards tourny ending times blind stuctures and field sizes plus max allowed thinking time and dealer speed make online tournies far more likely to have very similer time spans.

[gettingfatter]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

You think all live tourneys last roughly the same time' date='cmon mate wake up :unsure[/quote'] live tournies have retards staring each other down and people who have no idea of the rules taking 5 mins over pre internet is internet, its regimented to the point where its bound to take a certain amount of time.

[xcode]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? I know that there are so many posts against the topic of "rigged online poker" and all of them state the same: 1. you are a bad player 2. you play millions of hands 3. you remember only the bad beats So, to be sure non of these is happening I did the following: 1. installed poker tracker 3 to keep stats of all my hands 2. in two folders on my computer I put all the good beats and all the bad beats screen shots 3. I play only these best hands AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,AK,AQ, nothing else even in BB So here is the result from PokerStars from this weekend only: all-in with AA got beaten 4 times out of 6 to 22,55,99,JT all-in with QQ got beaten by 88 AK got beaten 8 times out of 12 while there was at least A or K on the flop AQ got beaten by 22 with Q on the flop and trips on the river 9 trips on the flop got beaten by gutshot straight on the river all-in JJ beaten by straight with 78o and many more on the good beat side I have several hands like: KK winning always AA winning sometimes JJ hit a J on the flop and winning JJ hit a straight 66 hit a 6 on the flop and that is ALL! So at the end of the weekend I have 3 good beats in my good beats folder. I exclude the AA and KK winning as they are supposed to win and don't count as "beats". Compared to 23 bad beats in my bad beats folder. I have to re-fund my bankroll twice to keep it going. It is 3 vs 23 on PokerStars. I have the PokerTracker3 running all the time so that I can spot some fishes and see statistics. And the result was that after checking the players against which my bad beats were, they were the players that paid the most rake. Or at least a significant rake. I on the other side playing only about 10 hands don't pay a good rake at all. So my conclusion here is that: online poker is rigged but it is a controlled rig that keeps the bad players (or better said: the players that play a lot of hands) in the game so that they continue to play like that and continue to pay rake. In order for a player to stay in the game while he is constantly playing hands like QT, QJ, A7, etc. against a table of sharks that are playing only the best hands, the software must give him those incredible beats so that he can stay. Otherwise, the sharks will get his money in a matter of minutes. So, the point here is that fishes should stay and not loose their bankroll to sharks (or at least not loose it too quickly). The only possible way this could happen is if the software is rigged and gives them what they need so that a J9 could beat my AK. In all other cases a fish will loose its money in a matter of minutes. I don't think a fair online poker room exists. It is not possible to operate. Because if sharks constantly rob fishes, there will be no fish. If there is no fish then the sharks will be gone too. And the poker room will die! This is my opinion and I will not play online again. You decide for yourself.

[slapdash]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair? If you play only premium hands but your opponents play many more hands, then of course you'll get a lot more bad beats than good beats.

[xcode]

Re: Are online poker rooms fair?

If you play only premium hands but your opponents play many more hands' date=' then of course you'll get a lot more bad beats than good beats.[/quote'] Of course, but I also play live. And I don't remember a single time loosing when holding AA or KK. While online 4 out of 6 AA I lost. What kind of math & stats is that?!