morlspin Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Background: My Stack = 62k (average 33k) Blinds 800/1600 Ante 100 Players Remaining 60 (25 paid) Players at table = 10 Time til end of day 1 = 62mins (10hrs played already) Reasonably tight table bar seat 4 who is chipped up and seat 5 who is loose aggressive and been up and down for last 2 hrs Im sat UTG+1 with :Ac::Kc: With blinds and antes in the pot totalling 3400 i make it 6500 to play The Button who is the big stack says raise 6000 not noticing my previous raise and is forced to post a minimum raise to a total of 13000 Pot size is now 22900 What do you do in this situation? Do you take his mis-play as weakness and shove the lot in preflop? Do you re-raise? Do you call and see a flop? Ill let you guys post and ill let you know what happened tomorrow so please....if you know the story already, keep schtum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Tough one. For me it would depend on his stack. What was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I would re-raise. Assuming it's not a 'play' and he genuinely didnt noice your raise, it is just a standard button raise and you should be miles ahead of his range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall His stack size is key here. How much? Also why did you raise to over 4 x BB (just over 10% of your stack)? What did you want to achieve from this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall agree it depends on stack size. Assuming an average or better stack I think you can afford to call, see a flop and get away if you miss. If you hit, pot size him and see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I'd get it in cos I'm an AK donk. You'll be out of position on the flop put the decision back on him if has aces or kings I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I would have made it 4000 preflop though in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Obviously you have the advantage of it being a live game and so you should have a good idea of how strong he seems if not you can get into a bit of verbal with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall If you've raised the 1600 BB to 6500, doesn't a forced min raise come to 11400, not 13000? Not a huge difference, but it might make some difference to the fold equity you have if you shove. In any case, assuming he really didn't notice your raise, then I'd shove. His range is that of a button raiser with antes, so AKs should be well ahead of his range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Not sure the sort of player who missed an 4900 early raise is the sort of player you can read. :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I find it easier to get away from AK in live than online, but I think that in this situation I would. Do you take his mis-play as weakness and shove the lot in preflop? Thinking about the reasons why he would miss the pre flop raise from you it could also be he's distracted cos he's hit a monster. How did he act when he was told that someone had already raised and he could 'only' make a minimum raise? Was he annoyed or did he seem not bothered? All of this would be something I'd take into account. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Hmm, you are out of position against a button raiser. I would ask how much he has behind and if he has enough to fold I would shove and cross my fingers and toes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morlspin Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Tough one. For me it would depend on his stack. What was it? He had roughly the same as me, as we were the 2 bigger stacks on the table His stack size is key here. How much? Also why did you raise to over 4 x BB (just over 10% of your stack)? What did you want to achieve from this? This seemed to be the table raise, no one was getting away with 3x so most had increased to 3.5-4x bb raises If you've raised the 1600 BB to 6500, doesn't a forced min raise come to 11400, not 13000? Not a huge difference, but it might make some difference to the fold equity you have if you shove. In any case, assuming he really didn't notice your raise, then I'd shove. His range is that of a button raiser with antes, so AKs should be well ahead of his range. They forced him into doubling my bb:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall This seemed to be the table raise, no one was getting away with 3x so most had increased to 3.5-4x bb raises No one was getting away with it? WHat do you mean by this? They would get callers or shoved on? Sounds as if your scared of action with a big hand here, surely you want action with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall When in good shape in a tourn I don't die with hands like AKx. So I wouldn't get busy with this, a) out of position and b) against a stack that could hurt me. I'd call and see what the flop brought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall When in good shape in a tourn I don't die with hands like AKx. So I wouldn't get busy with this, a) out of position and b) against a stack that could hurt me. I'd call and see what the flop brought. So you dont like playing out of position but you would call and see what the flop brings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I hate the call here as you miss the flop 2/3 of the time - shove or fold seems the only options and like I said I would have pushed. If he has same stack size then he's folding everything except AK, KK, and possibly QQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I hate the call here as you miss the flop 2/3 of the time - shove or fold seems the only options and like I said I would have pushed. If he has same stack size then he's folding everything except AK' date=' KK, and possibly QQ.[/quote'] amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall This just highlights playing big ace hands out of position it is always tricky but OOP you need to keep the pot small and your raise from EP is too big. You should have thought before you put your first raise in what would you do to a re-raise, the size and his mistake is incidental to me. Its shove or fold but we don't know the dynamics or history of the table but I'd lean towards a shove :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall hmm i'd be shoving i think:ok he's on the button and could be raising with any 2 in this situation (if he didn't see your raise;))so i wouldnt want to see a flop really. if he has aces or kings so be it ,if not there's always a decent chance he will fold but that depends on his stack etc(be nice to know;)) would have thought you would have got a fair bit of info from him :unsureafter all most players will give off a lot during something like this.be suprised if you could get away with a strange move like this without giving the game away, so i dont expect it was a "strategy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Wow deffo raise less pre. You're making the pot HUGE. IF someone is crazy enough to flat what then? And if you take the blinds and antes down you may as well have 42 cos you're turning the hand into a complete bluff. As played- shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall So you dont like playing out of position but you would call and see what the flop brings? I don't want to make the pot any bigger as I'm playing the pot OOP against a fellow big stack, that's what I should've said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I'm always staggered that people always think AK is a shove or fold hand. Usually, yes, I agree. But when in great shape (chip-wise) I will sometimes play the hand meekly pre flop against a fellow big stack. He had 62k, which is a great position to be in, and the majority of you are instantly suggesting a shove - against a stack that can bust you. There is a reason why so many people go bust with AK you know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall I hate the call here as you miss the flop 2/3 of the time - shove or fold seems the only options and like I said I would have pushed. If he has same stack size then he's folding everything except AK' date= KK, and possibly QQ. That is no guarantee. Dunno why you hate the call . You have 56k, there will be better opportunities - this mistake from him and the mis-raise just stinks of carnage to me, something always seems to go wrong in these spots. Maybe I play AK a little too cautiosly when I'm chipped up against one of the only stacks that can do me damage? But believe me, I got out of tourns cursing AK less than anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall im pushing here all in here. there are 4 hands, pocket aces, pocket kings where you are behind. you are 50/50 with any pocket pair. and ahead with any other hands with the stacks he is only likey to call with kings aces or possibly queens. you pick up 22k or are unlucky and he calls with a monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall im pushing here all in here. there are 4 hands, pocket aces, pocket kings where you are behind. you are 50/50 with any pocket pair. and ahead with any other hands with the stacks he is only likey to call with kings aces or possibly queens. you pick up 22k or are unlucky and he calls with a monster. So, if you put his hand range as any pair you're behind 55% to 45% I can't grasp why people would want to shove here, he has plenty of chips, why on earth would you want to race ? There will certainly be better spots later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall So, if you put his hand range as any pair you're behind 55% to 45% I can't grasp why people would want to shove here, he has plenty of chips, why on earth would you want to race ? Me too mate. I just don't get it. It certainly isn't me and it never will be. Although it does come down to the old arguemnt...if it was my girlfriend playing, she SHOULD want the race, her skills are limited and she should be pushing edges. It's her best chance of gathering chips. Any decent tourn player should be avoiding races against similar stacks, when in decent shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall You're not calling for all your chips though, you're putting the pressure on your opponent to call for all his chips. Morls created a big pot in the first place and I feel shoving is the only option in this instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall So, if you put his hand range as any pair you're behind 55% to 45% I can't grasp why people would want to shove here, he has plenty of chips, why on earth would you want to race ? There will certainly be better spots later You've missed the point 90% of the time the other guy folds If that aint "+EV" I dont know what is. Shame on you AJ;) Shove Shove Shove its AK after all:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall So, if you put his hand range as any pair you're behind 55% to 45% I can't grasp why people would want to shove here, he has plenty of chips, why on earth would you want to race ? There will certainly be better spots later I thought it was closer to 50/50 when suited. my point was he if was called then hes 50/50 so has the right odds. if he pushes then the guy should fold against the only guy on the table who could knock him out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Re: Hand 1 from APAT Walsall Me too mate. I just don't get it. It certainly isn't me and it never will be. Although it does come down to the old arguemnt...if it was my girlfriend playing, she SHOULD want the race, her skills are limited and she should be pushing edges. It's her best chance of gathering chips. Any decent tourn player should be avoiding races against similar stacks, when in decent shape. I want a race when I shove with aces the rest of the time I want to pick up what ever is allready in the middle when every one folds. If you just want to race start calling with a/paint and small pkt pairs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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