Player09

[Player07]

Re: Player09 At these lower levels the continuation bet loses some of it's currency, as some opponents will ignore pot odds and call to the river. I just played a hand with J,J OTB...re-raised pre-flop, 3/4 pot bet after flop (three cards under 8) 40% pot bet on turn (a 3) and checked the river (a K) My opponent turned over A,K!! His thinking must have been along the lines "If an A or a K comes down I've got top pair, top kicker, which is a good hand, innit?" I think I played this hand ok, but had I played the hand more passively I would have saved myself some money. Same session, another guy called my re-raise with K,9os out of position, despite me having a VP of 19 after 70+ hands! (J,J again....lost again). I think GaF is saying that you need to adjust your style of play to exploit your opponents, and that might include passive play at times. However, our target at this stage should generally be tight/aggressive, and improving our post flop game, so we can incorporate loose/aggressive hands into our play.

[BAM]

Re: Player09

At these lower levels the continuation bet loses some of it's currency' date=' [b']as some opponents will ignore pot odds and call to the river.

Isn't that what you want them to do?

I think I played this hand ok, but had I played the hand more passively I would have saved myself some money.

Or won more money than if you had played passively and won

I think GaF is saying that you need to adjust your style of play to exploit your opponents' date= and that might include passive play at times. However, our target at this stage should generally be tight/aggressive, and improving our post flop game, so we can incorporate loose/aggressive hands into our play.

I've never adjusted my style at any level - solid cash poker is solid cash poker. Steph had a similar 'discussion' with two non-believers on this forum last year and they insisted that there was a difference in the way you play between high and low stakes. Plus we always get the recurring nightmare "you have to crack one level before moving onto the next". I think it is a true shame that the advice was just being laughed at back then and the same mistakes are still being made today. Over and out :eyes

[BAM]

Re: Player09 PS ;) What is the reason for players hiding their identity? I'm sure people will be more forthcoming in offering advice to real people that someone hiding behind a mask.

[Player07]

Re: Player09

Isn't that what you want them to do?

When you have something, yes. But when your A,K flops air your opponent is much less likely to fold his bottom pair to a c-bet, despite you being the aggressor pre-flop. I'm with you on this WASP. Even if non-standard play is sometimes right at this level, it is best to get rid of bad habits, rather than reinforcing them, before moving to a higher level.

[seanfaz]

Re: Player09 I disagree there WASP - you do need to adjust to different levels. Not only do you need to adjust at different levels, but also to different players at each table at a given level. For example, i play a lot of live cash, and there are certain players at every table that i will play differently against due to their tendancies. Just like in a loose game, you should play tight, and in a tight game you should play loose, you should alter your play at different levels. Yes, you will always be able to play profitably by playing ABC poker at low and medium levels, but not at higher levels. Personally, i think the most important thing that i realised was that if you really want to play optimally, and get as close to perfect poker as you can, ABC poker all the time will not get you anywhere near. There are so many other factors, and sometimes, being passive at the right time is the correct strategy (in a particular hand). But anyway, i'm rambling a bit......in this situation at these stakes, passive play is generally not a great idea, and i would be considering not just betting, but overbetting often.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Player09 I think this would be a good point to differentiate between 2 types of aggression, as I think people are mixing them up in the same discussion - preflop aggression, and post flop aggression. Of course there is a relationship between them, but you don't have to play the same style both pre and post flop). I would go as far as to say that it is impossible to be a winning cash game player without playing aggressively preflop. Regardless of whether, you are tight, loose, or somewhere in between, you MUST be aggressive pre-flop. So if your VP$IP is 8, then your PFR should be minimum 6 I would say. If you're playing with a VP$IP of 32, then PFR should be 27+ IMO, certainly over 25. That is what pre-flop aggression is all about, taking the lead in the hand, building pots and making your opponent make a difficult decision. Ok, post-flop aggression. Not as important as preflop aggression if you are good at reading opponents hand ranges. This enables you to make blocker bets, you can float them (in or out of position), check-call etc, but also to use aggression to extract value. In essence, preflop poker is all about hand selection + aggression, post flop poker is all about hand reading, pot control and extracting value. I haven't looked at Player09's post flop play, but it is a FACT that his pre-flop play is too passive, and I don't think there's any poker game in the world that is beatable with this style.

[BAM]

Re: Player09

I disagree there WASP - you do need to adjust to different levels. Not only do you need to adjust at different levels, but also to different players at each table at a given level. For example, i play a lot of live cash, and there are certain players at every table that i will play differently against due to their tendancies. Just like in a loose game, you should play tight, and in a tight game you should play loose, you should alter your play at different levels. Yes, you will always be able to play profitably by playing ABC poker at low and medium levels, but not at higher levels. Personally, i think the most important thing that i realised was that if you really want to play optimally, and get as close to perfect poker as you can, ABC poker all the time will not get you anywhere near. There are so many other factors, and sometimes, being passive at the right time is the correct strategy (in a particular hand). But anyway, i'm rambling a bit......in this situation at these stakes, passive play is generally not a great idea, and i would be considering not just betting, but overbetting often.

I'm not sure why you disagree with me as I agree with you :lol Of course you have to adjust to the situation, players, levels etc but if after 10,000 hands you are quite clearly stuck in loose passive mode you have a problem. I was talking on a more widely encompassing basis rather than situational and yes ABC will get you nowhere but that was part of the discussion we had last year.

[BAM]

Re: Player09

When you have something, yes. But when your A,K flops air your opponent is much less likely to fold his bottom pair to a c-bet, despite you being the aggressor pre-flop. I'm with you on this WASP. Even if non-standard play is sometimes right at this level, it is best to get rid of bad habits, rather than reinforcing them, before moving to a higher level.

I thought you had JJ? If you are playing AK and missing the flop that is entirely different as you are attempting to bluff an unbluffable but it still doesn't mean you have to play loose passive, to get to the figures shown it happens across all situations not just the ones you describe.

[slapdash]

Re: Player09

I disagree there WASP - you do need to adjust to different levels.

I'm not sure why you disagree with me as I agree with you :lol

I think this may have been what confused him: :tongue2

I've never adjusted my style at any level - solid cash poker is solid cash poker.

OK, to be fair, I presume you were making a distinction between "adjusting your style", meaning completely changing your approach, and "making adjustments", meaning making more minor tactical adjustments to exploit other players' bad play. As for GaF's ruminations: Here's a completely unrealistic thought experiment. Suppose you're playing against literal calling stations: i.e., they never fold and never raise. Then, assuming the stacks are not tiny, it's pretty clear that the best strategy is to limp into every pot, check it down until the river, and then go all-in if your hand at that stage has +EV against random hands. In other words, play the ultimate loose passive strategy until the last minute. Of course, even at micro-limits the players are not that bad. :tongue2 But if your opponents are extreme passive calling stations, it's probably correct to try to play a lot of pots cheaply for the implied odds, because they'll pay you off far too often when you hit a flop. Whether the micro-limit players are extreme enough passive calling stations for this to make up for giving up the advantage of pre-flop aggression, I doubt, but I don't really know. I agree with you to an extent about "beating one level before you tackle the next", though how sensible that is depends on your bankroll. If the micro-limit players really are so bad that an optimal strategy against them is completely different from how you should play at higher levels, then there's probably not a lot of point in getting to know that optimal strategy if you're planning to move up the levels, unless you're just doing it to build a bankroll. On the other hand, so long as you recognize that you're developing a strategy to exploit a particular weakness and not learning how to play good poker, then it probably has some value in learning why a loose passive strategy is bad and easily exploitable.

[glceud]

Re: Player09 Heres my stats for Virgin and Sporting odds from about a year ago(before my poker tracker packed up). Purpose of the play was simply to get raked hands. Fish and a calling station Icon yet both are profitable. All you need to do to win at these levels is stay awake.:zzz

[seanfaz]

Re: Player09 To WASP - yeah i think we do agree, but i feel a major strength if not my greatest strength is that i try to play purely situationally. By incorporating my knowledge of poker, my knowledge of my opponents, table image etc etc, i change my style all the time to fit the situation. This doesn't really apply to this discussion of micro-stakes but it is certainly relevant to cash poker strategy. No one hand is the same as another, and i believe that each hand should be examined individually, making as few assumptions as possible. But yeah i guess we agree about the rest lol. To Deadly Dave - I'm not sure i agree with this. ALthough i agree about your analysis of post flop poker, i disagree a little with your analysis of preflop poker. I don't believe that starting hand is all that important in a lot of situations preflop if you have good post-flop skills. Also, yes aggression is good preflop, but over-aggression is bad; you don't want to commit too many chips pre-flop when you can get your opponents to make big mistakes if you can outplay them postflop.

[Nade]

Re: Player09 Oh you crazy cats.

[GaF]

Re: Player09 Here's Player09's results so far this week - appreciate that 499 hands provides no statistical significance at all, however a massive improvement in the stats :clap :clap :clap As he's said to me in the email - maybe a little too tight, but it's produced the results :ok

[JulioArca]

Re: Player09 I always thought a profitable "fish" was just a lucky player. By definition the term "fishing" is calling for a draw with incorrect pot odds / implied odds. Okay so they suck out on you with the AK on the river but you still have to play the hand hard if you think you have the best hand. It has to be the most profitable play in the long run. Bet with the best hand - fold with the worst hand - call if you are given the odds to draw.

[tomahawk1984]

Re: Player09

Bet with the best hand - fold with the worst hand - call if you are given the odds to draw.

You make it sound so easy :D Hopefully player09 keeps up his recent good work.

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Player09

Here's Player09's results so far this week - appreciate that 499 hands provides no statistical significance at all, however a massive improvement in the stats :clap :clap :clap As he's said to me in the email - maybe a little too tight, but it's produced the results :ok

Good results, I definitely wouldn't say 18/12 is too tight, my game is actually 15/13, albeit on 6 seaters, not 5 seaters. But at micros, tight play gets results.

[Milber]

Re: Player09 some good tips on here and it looks like player09 has taken note. I haven't used stats yet to improve my cash game just I just look at my balance, but here is a few things I think may help. 1 you have to choose the right table if max buyin is €25 sit down at a table where there is atleast 2 players with €17 or less(approx 2/3 max buyin) there either loosing players or don't understand the benefits of a large stack, hence you always buy in for the max.Don't join a table where 2 players €35+ obviuosly they are decent so it will be harder to win. 2 You have to identify the type of players on your table asap ie aggresive, loose, calling staions etc. This is how you can identify the best way of getting money off them. I normally only play 2, 5 handed tables but if you play lots of simultanious tables I would think you play more abc poker and become easier for opponents to resd you. 3 Aggresion is very important as you have to be able to push weaker players of pots, but it also has to be controlled if your getting re-raised by a tight player he will generally have something. 4 I don't believe position is as crucial on a 5 handed table as I will raise 75% of the pots I enter and pick up a lot of blinds as opponents don't like to call knowing I'm gonna bet or raise them post flop. 5 You should also be aware of your own table image but vary your bets, at low stakes betting 2/3 of the pot with top pair when there is only €0.30 in isn't gonna push many players off. 6 I also try not to play at the same table for more than an hour often 30min is long enough this reduces the chances of getting any reads on you plus after an hour they're gonna get hacked of at you stealing blinds and bullying them so they'll start to play back at you more. hope these are useful as they work for me (so far!!!)

[GaF]

Re: Player09 NL10

[GaF]

Re: Player09 NL10