Player09

[gazza]

stats here

[Player 009]

Re: Player09 I am seriously thinking about jacking this in, i'm am having a total nightmare at the moment, was about €10 up after 1650 hands in the first week although didn't get my hand history to Gaf in time to process them, now i'm about €75 down after 2550 hands!:eek:$ Had a couple of losses early in the week and it seemed to spiral out of control, i started to played as many hands as everyone else and just kept having the second best hand at every show down. So i decided to tighten up and just try and play good poker and still keep finding myself second best, played a couple of tables this afternoon and 2 hands are prime examples of what i mean, i know thet don't tend to bluff with big bets at the showdown, but still should i be getting away from these hands? BossMedia Game #1455075574: Table Table TH 245 - €0.05/€0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:01:23 - 2009/02/12 Seat 5: Player009 (€9.80) Seat 1: davidvicio (€8.46) Seat 2: daziz (€19.12) Seat 3: arti604 (€10.56) Player009 posts the big blind of €0.10 arti604 is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Player009 [8s 9c] davidvicio calls €0.10 daziz calls €0.10 arti604 calls €0.10 Player009 checks *** FLOP *** [7s 5s 6h] Player009 bets €0.30 davidvicio calls €0.30 daziz calls €0.30 arti604 calls €0.30 *** TURN *** [7s 5s 6h] [6c] Player009 bets €1.60 davidvicio folds daziz calls €1.60 arti604 folds *** RIVER *** [7s 5s 6h 6c] [8d] Player009 checks daziz bets €4.80 Player009 calls €4.80 *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €13.68 | Rake €0.72 Board: [7s 5s 6h 6c 8d] Player009 won (€0.00), mucks davidvicio won (€0.00), mucks daziz won (€13.68), showed [6d 7h] arti604 won (€0.00), mucks BossMedia Game #1455140556: Table Table TH 613 - €0.05/€0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:41:26 - 2009/02/12 Seat 1: Player009 (€10.22) Seat 3: hypertom (€7.53) Seat 2: SAB33 (€7.37) Seat 4: WLK_MIH (€10.71) Seat 5: axinte7 (€17.02) Player009 posts the big blind of €0.10 axinte7 posts the small blind of €0.05 WLK_MIH is the button *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Player009 [Ad Jd] SAB33 folds hypertom calls €0.10 WLK_MIH raises €0.40 axinte7 folds Player009 calls €0.40 hypertom folds *** FLOP *** [4d Jc Qh] Player009 checks WLK_MIH bets €0.71 Player009 calls €0.71 *** TURN *** [4d Jc Qh] [Tc] Player009 bets €1.50 WLK_MIH calls €1.50 *** RIVER *** [4d Jc Qh Tc] [Js] Player009 bets €2.68 WLK_MIH goes all-in with €8.10 Player009 goes all-in with €7.61 *** SUMMARY *** Total pot €19.57 | Rake €1.02 Board: [4d Jc Qh Tc Js] Player009 won (€0.00), mucks SAB33 won (€0.00), mucks hypertom won (€0.00), mucks WLK_MIH won (€19.57), showed [Ks 9s] axinte7 won (€0.00), mucks Going to leave it for the rest of the week i think and try and comeback refreshed next week, but going to be a long hard slog to get my losses back i feel. I know it is only variance, but is killing me at the moment. Any thoughts would be appreciated.:ok

[GaF]

Re: Player09

I am seriously thinking about jacking this in' date=' i'm am having a total nightmare at the moment, was about €10 up after 1650 hands in the first week although didn't get my hand history to Gaf in time to process them, now i'm about €75 down after 2550 hands!:eek:$[/quote'] Wow - thats quite steep losses for this level :loon

[GaF]

Re: Player09

By the way - this isn't personal at all - I dont know who I'm speaking to at the moment :lol :lol :lol (I'll look it up after I've posted this ;))

Wow - I have to be honest - I'm quite shocked at who this is - why? Because I think it's someone most would consider one of the better players on PL It's certainly someone who has had no shortage of MTT success. Also someone I'd have assumed had already cracked cash games :unsure

[GaF]

Re: Player09 With the stats I have for you so far (1657 hands for €9.38 profit), looking at the top level stats, I make the following observations: - you are playing slightly looser than the average PL player (VPIP 35%) - You win a lower proportion of your hands when seeing the flop than average (that's normal if you are looser) - W$WSF: 36.7% - You go to fewer showdowns than average - this is unusual if you are looser but not especially aggressive. WTSD:24.8% AF:2.15 - You win higher than average number of showdowns when you get to showdown. This seems to suggest you get pushed off too often. W$SD: 56.6% - Your aggression frequency is extraordinarily low. This seems to suggest you dont take a stab at the pot often enough. AFq: 38.7% The key to me looks to be the frequency you take a stab at the pot. At this level players are poor at making decisions. If you check to them, then the decision is usually just to check or bet and is usually relatively straightforward to them. If you bet to them, then they have to decide from 3 options - fold, call or reraise - it's far easier for them to make a (big) mistake - add to that, at this level they often wont understand, consider, or observe the pot odds they are offered and even very small frequent stabs at the pot can be successful. (see my thread on min betting ;) The success of this tactic has significantly improved since I last posted). You really can be as transparent as min betting when you are weak/drawing and overbetting when you are strong.....

[GaF]

Re: Player09 Have received the rest of the hands - will put some stats up, so hopefully others can give their views :ok

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[GaF]

Re: Player09 Here are stats just during the downturn....

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[GaF]

Re: Player09 Overall graph unchanged from post 6. Week 3

[GaF]

Re: Player09 Received a late batch of hands from Player09 - wont hang on to put his stats up as he's struggling badly and could probably do with some feedback. As I said before - he's definitely a good tournament player, and one I respect hugely, so hopefully he'll be able to work his way through this and get it right :ok From his comments in the email - he feels he's playing too loose and needs to tighten up - I'd go along with that totally :ok

[GaF]

Re: Player09

[BAM]

Re: Player09 God this guy is in a mess !! he has fish written all over him (is it fenners ;)) High VPIP and low AF do not mix that needs to be addressed before anything else. If he has good MTT skills then why not take them to the cash table - position is paramount and stop putting money in the pot with crap hands especially in the SB and when you do enter a pot raise!

[aldric]

Re: Player09 What has this player done differently from 2k hands to 4k hands because thats where the problem is. He has gone from a breakeven player or slightly better to a consistant loser :(

[GaF]

Re: Player09

he has fish written all over him

He's definitely not!

High VPIP and low AF do not mix that needs to be addressed before anything else.

I've said it a few times - theoretically, I'm not convinced that loose passive is necessarily a bad idea at these stakes. Having said that, the results so far do seem to prefer a tighter, more aggressive approach.

What has this player done differently from 2k hands to 4k hands because thats where the problem is. He has gone from a breakeven player or slightly better to a consistant loser :(

Will get stats broken down by the two seperate periods :ok

[BAM]

Re: Player09 loose passive = fish and the sort of guy I spadeit :ok Just because he isn't a MTT fish these stats prove he is at cash and don't get me started on the playing a different game for different levels debate, its well worn and advice that has previously been given by better cash junkies than me but nobody seems to listen :eyes

[GaF]

Re: Player09 Here's the 2 periods side by side......

[GaF]

Re: Player09

loose passive = fish and the sort of guy I spadeit :ok

I disagree - if a Loose Passive player is consistently profitable over a large number of hands then I dont think he is a fish. For me a fish is a consistently large losing player.

[BAM]

Re: Player09

I disagree - if a Loose Passive player is consistently profitable over a large number of hands then I dont think he is a fish. For me a fish is a consistently large losing player.

OMG !!! :wall

[GaF]

Re: Player09 First action on the flop after pre flop raise (i.e. continuation betting) Was 38% betting now 28% betting Was 9% check now 15% check The cbet proportion seems to have fallen. The NoFlop/No Action has also increased from 43% to 49% - maybe just variance, maybe you are now betting bigger when you bet pre flop?

[aldric]

Re: Player09 A significant increase in playing from the SB from 2k hands onwards. 10% preflop raise? This seems really low for shorthanded?

[GaF]

Re: Player09

10% preflop raise? This seems really low for shorthanded?

It is low, especially given how loose he is. I think I would definitely agree that this players style would be labeled as "loose Passive"

[Valiant23]

Re: Player09 The Player Actions Aggression Factor is higher during the losing streak on every street except Pre Flop Winning Streak Pre Flop 11.80 Flop 37.45 Turn 45.27 River 28.85 Total 38.69 Losing Streak Pre Flop 11.83 (+0.03) Flop 40.92 (+5.47) Turn 55.65(+10.38) River 29.89 (+1.04) Total 43.37 (+5.08) I've no idea what these stats mean in real terms but I guess I'd be interested in being told if they are relevant. Gaf?, I'm surprised at your comment that fishy play doesn't necessarily mean the player is a fish. Surely it just means that they're making bad plays or decisions and getting lucky when they win? If this is wrong then it contradicts the statement that good poker is about making the right decisions at the right time and the outcome is irrelevant.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Player09 It's pretty clear where player09 is going wrong. There's plenty of leaks there, but you can't fix them all at once. What any losing cash player has to work on first is their pre-flop game. First thing I would suggest is to play WAY tighter out of the small blind - a VP$IP of over 50 is not going to be a profitable play. Fold anything that isn't a premium hand to a raise in this position, and only play marginal hands if you can limp in (the only time I would limp in an unraised pot is in the SB with a marginal hand.) Second thing - if you're entering an unraised pot, raise. This should cause you to play tighter (as you will fold some of the junk you were limping with), and obviously you will be more aggressive. You can say that loose-passive play can work at lower levels - I've never seen it over an extended number of hands, and I don't know anyone else who has.

[GaF]

Re: Player09

You can say that loose-passive play can work at lower levels - I've never seen it over an extended number of hands' date=' and I don't know anyone else who has.[/quote'] I have no empircal evidence to back that up - just a vague notion that, despite "book reading" making it obvious that Loose Passive is the worst way to play poker - I can see theoretical arguments as to why loose passive may be profitable at microstakes. The reason I've made a point of it over the last month is that I want to encourage people to think for themselves and try their own ideas and evolve their game from their own thinking - rather than just trying to blindly apply "book theory" to their game. This is for a couple of reasons: - I'd be pretty confident that standard book theory will not be the most profitable form of poker at microlimits - a lot of concepts will be transferable - a lot of concepts wont be. - I think players will learn faster where they think for themselves and evolve their own understanding of concepts. I'm not arguing that book reading doesnt provide a short cut - just that for this project I think players will get maximum benefit through trying to think for themslves, rather than blindly trying to follow established norms (which may be unsuccessful at this level) Having said that, Player09 seems to be having problems with his current style and without much doubt he needs to try different things - and playing tighter pre flop would probably be the number one thing he should try (and I think he knows this....)

[GaF]

Re: Player09

I'm surprised at your comment that fishy play doesn't necessarily mean the player is a fish.

I dont think I ever said that (and if I did, it's not what I meant). I dont believe that all players who can be categorised as Loose Passive (especially at this level) can be categorised as "Fish". I dont believe "Loose Passive" is a synonym for "fish". If we say Loose Passive is a synonym for fish, then we are saying that highly profitable players are fish? And I dont think many poker players are refering to someone as a "Highly Profitable Player" when they call them a fish :unsure I'm not disputing that in normal circumstances, Loose Passive is the worst way to play - however I do believe that in the right circumstances, any way of playing can be profitable (including loose passive).

[BAM]

Re: Player09

I dont think I ever said that (and if I did, it's not what I meant). I dont believe that all players who can be categorised as Loose Passive (especially at this level) can be categorised as "Fish". I dont believe "Loose Passive" is a synonym for "fish". If we say Loose Passive is a synonym for fish, then we are saying that highly profitable players are fish? And I dont think many poker players are refering to someone as a "Highly Profitable Player" when they call them a fish :unsure I'm not disputing that in normal circumstances, Loose Passive is the worst way to play - however I do believe that in the right circumstances, any way of playing can be profitable (including loose passive).

I'm absolutely amazed that someone with your experience and poker know how can think in this way. I think your little project here is doomed for failure as we seem to have the blind leading the blind and as usual any kind solid advice is ignored for unilateral thinking. Anyone who can seriously think that loose passive play can be an option at any level deserves to lose their roll several times over in my opinion. Well I'll keep mining for the loose passive guys and you keep bringing them through, seems a good deal to me :tongue2

[seanfaz]

Re: Player09 There are some fatal fatal flaws in these stats which can explain why this player is not winning any money. Loose passive is never a good idea in any game. I can't see it ever being profitable, and even if it was in a rare scenario, it would never be the optimal strategy and there is absolutely no need for it. I agree with WASP in that the solid advice should be taken. Loose passive is my bread and butter and is ideal - it roughly translates to "calling station", which is just a terrible strategy. One thing i noticed is a ridiculously low continuation bet frequency - 28%?????? I know that in a decent game, a 100% c-bet frequency is exploitable, but 0.05/0.10 is not decent, and the c-bet figure should be much closer to 100%. I would be aiming for around 80% at least - if you aren't betting, how are you going to win pots?Also, playing out of the small blind is a bad idea without significant pot odds and/or a premium hand. The button and the cutoff should be your standard raising spots - building pots in position.