GeordieGaz Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 This was the situation in the APAT Team game on Saturday! I'd lost a few chips and was down to 6k, I'd put about 900 into a pot and the board is reading something like... 4 2 7 K 9... no flush or straight possibilities, I'm holding 6 7 and have called a bet on the flop and it has been checked down since then and is at a showdown. I show my hand (6, 7) and my opponent taps the table says nice hand and puts his cards face down over the line as if to fold..... I then start to rake in the pot and I also ask to see his cards (which I'm entitled to if it's at a showdown) and the dealer turns his cards and shows A 7, this beats my hand with the Ace kicker. The opponent then says... 'so it is my pot, right?', I say well yea it should be but you mucked! Anyways to cut this long story short, we ended up having to get a ruling so I was wondering what you guys think should happen in this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB80 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? You win. His cards are dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? i dont think the dealer should have turned em in the first place,once they are mucked thats it.i think you need to ask before they muck and you can't after. so although he had u beat it should still be your pot ,coz his cards were dead already. i thought some of the dealers were very good:clap:clap and some very poor:eyes:eyes one i had tried to give me a pot i'd lost, just to rub salt in the wounds:tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? i dont think the dealer should have turned em in the first place,once they are mucked thats it.i think you need to ask before they muck and you can't after. The cards hadn't actually hit the 'muck'. The Muck being the already dead cards in a pile..... the opponent had just gently moved his cards just over the line face down'. Anyways, how am I sposed to ask to see a players cards before the cards hit the muck? I can't ask to see them before he folds? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? thats why you need to say immediately as soon as they go to fold.as soon as they are over the line then they should be classed as mucked ,so dead:ok i usually try to chuck mine back into the muck if possible,then there's no way they can see em;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Ahhh right, I've seen dealers take out cards from the muck after someone has folded when asked to see their cards, always thought they couldn't do that as they could pull out any two cards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowRow87 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? so did u get the win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? I'm pretty certain that Ben's right, although I've seen a couple of programme's where the TD has ruled that the cards should be shown. I've had a look on TDA and found this; http://pokertdablog.com/2008/05/31/dealers-responsiblity-in-callling-hands/#comments After all any person can ask to see any hand that was called to the showdown (wether or not it is mucked), but again this is discouraged on a continuing basis because it also slows the game. So you're right in asking for a peep. Found this response as well. http://pokertdablog.com/2008/04/18/showdown-muck/#comments & 3)Any player has the right to see a players hand if there was completed action on the river. Yes, it is rude and used to be used when there was suspected collusion. If player A wants to see player B’s cards, player B’s cards cannot be killed, they are live and if they contain the winning hand the pot is awarded to player B. If player A shows the winner and player B tosses his cards in face-down and some player, not in the hand, wants to see B’s cards the cards are touched to the muck and dead, no longer able to win the pot if they contain the winning hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolly67 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? I'd have thought that once his cards are over the line they're dead:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Errrrrrrrrm ...... well.... This rule differs from place to place. At DTD you would not get to see his cards At Broadway the dealer should tap the cards on the muck (killing them) and then turn them over and they don't play But generally it is bad form to ask to see cards, and the price of asking is they are live, so a possibility of shafting oneself with ones own penis :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? But generally it is bad form to ask to see cards, and the price of asking is they are live, so a possibility of shafting oneself with ones own penis :) I very very rarely ask to see a player's cards, however, the player in question had been winning the majority of the hands on the table and had not had to show his cards, so I thought it would be a bit of information for the table if he showed his cards! I'd wished I'd shut my mouth though! :wall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? If he made the last aggressive action, and you called, you are entitled to see his cards first, from order of showdown. However at DTD by turning your cards first you forfiet the right to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? I could write a book on this situation btw :) I have seen that many different rulings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? If he made the last aggressive action' date=' and you called, you are entitled to see his cards first, from order of showdown. However at DTD by turning your cards first you forfiet the right to ask.[/quote'] That's what I thought the ruling is Dik, but I must say it is pretty bad etiquette to ask to see a players cards when they've already mucked. If someone asked me, even in a home game I'd be pretty fcuked off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Depends if the muck rule is 'over the line' or 'if taken by dealer/hits cards' - it depends on the venue, which I believe Dik said. In my opinion, it's pretty wanky to ask to see the cards, if you wanted to play it that way you should not have exposed first. I bet you won't demand to see cards in that situation again. ;) I had a similar situation at Brighton last year. It was a big tounament. I knew my opponent fairly well after playing with him at another venue twice before. I was pretty sure he was calling with a draw and I called his bluff (draws missed) after the river with Q high. He pushed his cards over but they didn't touch the muck or the dealer. I showed my hand, basically to show how good I was. That was a mistake. He grabbed his cards back and said I have Q high too. We split the pot. I didn't call for a ruling - that isn't me, like I say depending on the venue he may've still been live. I could've held on to my cards for just a few more seconds before declaring. I'll always make sure a hand is mucked after making a call like that in future. This is slightly different to the situation earlier, I was too fair to be honest. Just another example of the fine line on these rulings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Just wrote a little piece here, hope its ok to link, if not please remove, but it was just to explain and point of reference. If it is too confusing please tell me and I will rewrite. http://www.ukpokerinfo.co.uk/showdown-hopefully-explained-98/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? This was the situation in the APAT Team game on Saturday! I'd lost a few chips and was down to 6k, I'd put about 900 into a pot and the board is reading something like... 4 2 7 K 9... no flush or straight possibilities, I'm holding 6 7 and have called a bet on the flop and it has been checked down since then and is at a showdown. I show my hand (6, 7) and my opponent taps the table says nice hand and puts his cards face down over the line as if to fold..... I then start to rake in the pot and I also ask to see his cards (which I'm entitled to if it's at a showdown) and the dealer turns his cards and shows A 7, this beats my hand with the Ace kicker. The opponent then says... 'so it is my pot, right?', I say well yea it should be but you mucked! Anyways to cut this long story short, we ended up having to get a ruling so I was wondering what you guys think should happen in this situation? Did he muck before you showed seems the critical point for me ? He had made the last agressive act on the flop, as such he should have showed first. If he mucked before you showed, his hand is dead in my view, the second his cards crossed the line and you win. If you showed out of order, then it's slightly more tricky, hoisted upon your own petard I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2c Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Once you've asked to see the cards, the cards become live and the best hand wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? There are lots of rules in poker that differ from place to place and floor guy to floor guy, just another reason to get a uniform set of regulations for the game because sometimes these situations can get out of hand. Wishy Washy was demanding to see cards on the cash table we were at and was pissing the guy right off but his tactics worked the guy tilted and then fcked off in the end :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Just wrote a little piece here, hope its ok to link, if not please remove, but it was just to explain and point of reference. If it is too confusing please tell me and I will rewrite. http://www.ukpokerinfo.co.uk/showdown-hopefully-explained-98/ Nice write up Rich, and it cleared up (for me) the order of showing hands - its something I thought was organised but never seems to be the case when I play live. Couple of points though. Endorsed by Roberts Rules of Poker, in my opinion he fucked up on this one, why should anyone have the right to see a players cardsI'm ready to be corrected (and I know you will ;) :D) but I thought that the logic behind this (which is almost always forgotten) is when someone believes that there is collusion, rather than to get free information. It would be much better if players realised that by asking to see 'mucked' hands they are basically accusing the other player of cheating. Howeverm whatever the game is, you can't expect the players to know all the rules. :\ The other thing that I think you have overlooked (that I read on TDA) is that players (in tournaments) are encouraged to table their cards if they believe they have the winning hand, irrespective of any showdown order. Again, this rule is often ignored because when players have the nuts they want to 'grandstand' a little. Simple question for you Rich. When are the cards dead? When they've crossed the line, or when they've touched the muck? I thought it was the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Although it is also good etiquette, if you believe you have the best hand to table your cards if you do not wish to see the opponents cards. ;) Although many poker tables have a line 9" in from the rail, this is a betting line not a mucking line. This is a line on the tables that once chips have crossed it is taken as the bet, cards are still live if in this area. Someone is declared to have passed by throwing their cards in a forward motion, once the cards have been pushed forward the dealer should scoop them into the muck. Once in the muck they are not retrievable. Players should never throw their cards into the muck, it is the dealers job to collect the cards into the muck. Passed cards and mucked cards are effectively 2 different things. Some situations call for a retrieval, and if the cards are clearly identifiable then they play. Quite rare though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlunB Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? When people keep demanding to see mucked cards it can really turn the mood a bit sour imo. But one thing that really tilts me is when you call someone and they try to make you show first. I called you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? When people keep demanding to see mucked cards it can really turn the mood a bit sour imo. But one thing that really tilts me is when you call someone and they try to make you show first. I called you!!! I with you on that one Alun. I know a guy who constantly does this down the pub and it really does infuriate me:@. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? Did he muck before you showed seems the critical point for me ? I showed my cards as I always do straight away (before he'd showed his)... that's the way I've always done it, I very rarely muck my cards at a showdown, it's a showdown!! If you don't want player's to see your cards then try and bet them out of the pot, otherwise be prepared to show! As for the mood turning sour.... I've never witnessed this and I've never thought of asking to see a player's cards as bad form! In fact in this situation it actually lightened the mood a bit as the table had been quite quiet, it was a topic of some discussion round the table though with some player's saying he should take the pot and other's saying the opposite, it really is a tricky situation!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dik9 Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? So what was the outcome? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? well after a little bit of discussion around the table, my opponent decided that it was his own fault as he'd misread his cards but myself and the dealer insisted on a ruling as it was a tricky one! The TD came over and ruled that his hand was dead as they had crossed the line and it was my pot, and to be fair my opponent didn't object whatsoever and was very undertstanding! Like I said earlier, I very rarely ask to see a player's cards but the one time I do ask he has me fcking beat!! typical!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? but just another point on this, I dread to think what would of happened if the opponent had of been a punters lounger!! :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Re: What would your ruling be in this situation? I must say, I like the DTD rule that you can't ask to see your opponent's cards when you've shown and he's mucked. I also wouldn't object to a rule that said everybody has to show at a showdown. But it seems like madness to have a rule that you can ask him to show but an unwritten rule that it's bad etiquette. That just seems like a recipe to generate the maximum possible ill-feeling at the poker table. There are lots of rules in poker that differ from place to place and floor guy to floor guy' date=' [b']just another reason to get a uniform set of regulations for the game because sometimes these situations can get out of hand. I definitely agree with that. :ok:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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