Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining.

[erhaab1965]

just played in my local cardroom and had Aces, early position, final 20 % of players left, 10% get paid. It's a slow structured deepstack game and the average number of big blinds is above 40. I have 92k, blinds are 2/4k. The table is quite passive so most raises are met with plenty of folds. UTG limps I limp aces, button limps, both blinds come in. I know I say the table is passive, but I limp hoping for a raise at some stage. Flop J26 rainbow. Check, bet of 4.5k, flat call from UTG. I foolishly bang it hoping to take it down now! All fold to UTG who calls with 26 which holds up and leaves me crippled. I'm out soon after. Almost the same happened last week and another time before, at roughly the same stages of the tournaments. Question, with Aces should I be limping at this stage? My thinking is that a raise will just win me the blinds and antes. In the long run is it profitable to see all 5 community cards with one or more opponents? Aces are strong enough 80% of the time, so did I do much wrong? If I'm going to take down a pot without having to show my cards then I can do that with any 2 cards, right?

[Warbirds]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining. IMHO: Given the type of play as described I see nothing wrong with calling a limper with AA as you don't want to win just 3-4 blinds with them. This with the idea (as you had) to take it down early (on the flop) and not let everyone see all 5 board cards though. You can't get a drier flop than J26 rainbow, the odds of someone flopping 2 pair or trips are low and I think your play was good there, just very unlucky. Fred

[glceud]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining. I slow pay aces all the time in early position online in the hope of a raise. With the top heavy pay out structures you have too, however live at a passive table you probably got it wrong. You get far more limpers live due to the pace of the game so you were inviting trouble. Far better to raise small and get heads up against a reasonable starting hand than let the blinds in and never know were you are. Aces aren't good 80% of the time if you let 4 players in;)

If I'm going to take down a pot without having to show my cards then I can do that with any 2 cards' date=' right?[/quote'] I started playing STT's years ago and reckoned all you had to do was play pretend aces once to cash. Then moved to 30-40 runner MTT'S and played them 3 times, which seemed to work back then. My biggest ever cash was in a 120+ field, and the only time I showed my cards was when I knocked the last player out. O'K I wasn't playing any two much of the time, but theoretically I could have been. Pretend aces are the second best starting hand in poker.

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining. Stop playing poker, you're burning money.

[glceud]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining. Oh forgor to add pretend aces are best against Al, the always crack his real aces:lol

[TastesLikeTuna]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining.

I limp aces, button limps, both blinds come in. I know I say the table is passive, but I limp hoping for a raise at some stage.

Well this is a contradiction, how can you expect a raise when you know the table is passive? IMO sounds like you limped aces to be tricky and then came up with this reasoning afterwards to justify the play.

I foolishly bang it hoping to take it down now!

Just call the flop, by raising we fold out a lot of worse hands/air, the board is really dry so raising doesn't achieve anything. Given the size of the pot we can easily get it in on the turn.

Question, with Aces should I be limping at this stage? My thinking is that a raise will just win me the blinds and antes. In the long run is it profitable to see all 5 community cards with one or more opponents? Aces are strong enough 80% of the time, so did I do much wrong?

Our decision pre-flop is mostly influenced by table conditions and stack size rather than the stage of the tournament. Especially when we have AA we're just looking for the maximum value option. Limping might be the max value in other circumstances but not here given the read. Also not going to be profitable to allow everyone to see the flop for 1bb and then allow them to realise their equity post flop by seeing all 5 cards :)

If I'm going to take down a pot without having to show my cards then I can do that with any 2 cards, right?

Not sure what is meant by this. I think you mean that you're expecting to win the pot by forcing your opponents to fold (fold equity) on the flop here which is a good reason to bluff if you believe it to be true. So logically if that is the case we don't want to raise with value hands.

[TastesLikeTuna]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining.

IMHO: Given the type of play as described I see nothing wrong with calling a limper with AA as you don't want to win just 3-4 blinds with them.

Well what you're essentially saying is that you are fine with allowing players behind you to realise the equity of their hands for a relatively small price, with position on us. For example if someone limps behind with JTs, 22, 45s or even 62 :) By raising we allow them to make more mistakes and gain value in the process. Essentially your thinking is flawed and it is leading to you making lower EV decisions for the wrong reasons. Like we can make 4-5bbs every time we raise pre as well as whatever value we get post flop when people call and so on. I can expand further on that particular point but I would challenge you to think about this reasoning.

[Haichan]

Re: Aces, early position, final 20% of field remaining.

IMHO: Given the type of play as described I see nothing wrong with calling a limper with AA as you don't want to win just 3-4 blinds with them. This with the idea (as you had) to take it down early (on the flop) and not let everyone see all 5 board cards though. You can't get a drier flop than J26 rainbow, the odds of someone flopping 2 pair or trips are low and I think your play was good there, just very unlucky. Fred

Limping with AA from early position in live tournys is in my view generally a very bad play. To do so you need to be able to make great reads on the flop. I don't know many people who can lay down AA on a J26 rainbow flop. Then to shove only compounds the mistake. Against 4 other opponents AA is only 45% fav against most limped hands. Why put your self at massive risk because you are afraid you will only win a small pot if you raise. Its the reason so many people bust out of tournys with AA because they assume it cannot be beaten. Better to have made a small raise preflop. If you are going to limp and let 4 other players into the pot you should have been extremely cautious when one of the other players bet on the flop. The kind of hands blinds limp with will often include 22/66 even J6.