Bent AW Racing.....

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... [ATTACH]4081[/ATTACH] I guess maybe the question should be, is the above realistic? Are the BHA doing a good enough job in enforcing this rule? Is corruption in the sport a good thing because it allows some to profit from it? I don't think so personally but then I've always been very competitive in life and sport and that's probably my error - Wanting to treat Horse Racing as a sport and not wanting to accept the farce it has become at the lower levels... I have a firm belief that the game has always been straight enough to make a profit despite the corruption that has always been there. To my eye though (and I may be wrong), it is getting worse - particularly on the AW - it is turning people off the sport and again, this can't be a good thing. It's been said before but if there aren't losing punters in the game then it just gets harder for there to be winning ones. Contrary to popular belief, it's not the Bookmakers money that you win - it's money from losing punters and without them the games over! Lots to sort out in the game and Stewards in tweed are just not getting the job done! Apologies for caring (moaning)

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... Matt Chapman kicking off about Loyalty in the 2.35. I'd backed him and obviously didnt wana see him run, all looks a bit dodgy. 11/4 out to 6/1, horse is sweating and has the vet check it over, she gives it the all clear and it finishes stone last Dont feel as strongly as Matt Chapman does about it, but it does look bad, obviously Joe Fanning or someone has voiced concerns over the horse for the vet to come and check it. Part of me thinks they should just withdraw all cases like this just to be on the safe side, but then they do go and win from time to time.

[jayalexander]

Lol, well perhaps moaning is too strong a word to use, as discussion is obviously a good thing. It's been said before, though, about prize money, and when it barely reaches 4 figures you're bound to have some trainers who work the system to gain a little extra. I don't think we should chastise them for that. If it does piss you off then you're probably spending too much money at the lower end of racing. However, if a trainer starts breaking the rules - laying his horses or adopting the Howard Johnson approach then they obviously need to be dealt with accordingly.

[The Saint]

Lol' date=' well perhaps moaning is too strong a word to use, as discussion is obviously a good thing. It's been said before, though, about prize money, and when it barely reaches 4 figures you're bound to have some trainers who work the system to gain a little extra. I don't think we should chastise them for that. If it does piss you off then you're probably spending too much money at the lower end of racing. However, if a trainer starts breaking the rules - laying his horses or adopting the Howard Johnson approach then they obviously need to be dealt with accordingly.[/quote'] I don't disagree Jay - the trainers are working a system and its the System and the people that control racing who are accountable... I'm not having it that Tony Caroll, Barney et al are on the breadline though!! They exploit the system because they are greedy and unscrupulous!! I'm happy to wager that they live in a lovely big house in the country!! ;) Happy to be corrected! Same picture, different perception!! I just think rules are rules.... To my detriment no doubt!! ;)

[Aidymac]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

I don't disagree Jay - the trainers are working a system and its the System and the people that control racing who are accountable... I'm not having it that Tony Caroll, Barney et al are on the breadline though!! They exploit the system because they are greedy and unscrupulous!! I'm happy to wager that they live in a lovely big house in the country!! ;) Happy to be corrected! Same picture, different perception!! I just think rules are rules.... To my detriment no doubt!! ;)

If racing was fair, it wouldn't survive. Tony Carroll's horses mostly operate at Class 6 level, with around £1,000 or so for winning a race. So for trainers that operate at this level, if they couldn't pull a gamble off now and again, how are they supposed to survive? It's grand for the likes of Cecil, Stoute and co who take in millions in prize-money over the years.. Carroll and Curley do nothing illegal by the way, they get a horse ready, have a gamble, and have a payday. If you had the chance, you'd do the same too. It's called gambling. Different if they are laying horses, they aren't, they are backing, and even if they have a horse ready, they still have to win the race or they have lost a fortune, which they have done on many an occasion. Your talking as if these guys never lose.

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

If racing was fair, it wouldn't survive. Tony Carroll's horses mostly operate at Class 6 level, with around £1,000 or so for winning a race. So for trainers that operate at this level, if they couldn't pull a gamble off now and again, how are they supposed to survive? It's grand for the likes of Cecil, Stoute and co who take in millions in prize-money over the years.. Carroll and Curley do nothing illegal by the way, they get a horse ready, have a gamble, and have a payday. If you had the chance, you'd do the same too. It's called gambling. Different if they are laying horses, they aren't, they are backing, and even if they have a horse ready, they still have to win the race or they have lost a fortune, which they have done on many an occasion. Your talking as if these guys never lose.

I guess it depends if you think that they run their horses on their merits everytime? If you do then fair enough.... If you don't then they are breaking the rules highlighted above. Whether that is 'illegal' or not I've no idea. Noone does anything about it - that's for sure. It's my interpretation that they don't run their horses on their merits everytime and therefore I think they are breaking the rules!

[Aidymac]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

I guess it depends if you think that they run their horses on their merits everytime? If you do then fair enough.... If you don't then they are breaking the rules highlighted above. Whether that is 'illegal' or not I've no idea. Noone does anything about it - that's for sure. It's my interpretation that they don't run their horses on their merits everytime and therefore I think they are breaking the rules!

Mate, name 1 single trainer in the UK between jumps and flat that runs their horses on their merits everytime, please.

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... "His house is a seven bedroom mansion near Newmarket, complete with an indoor swimming pool there's a Mercedes in the driveway. Its number plate simply puts it "I BET"" Who lives in a house like this....?! Barney apparently!! ;)

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

Mate' date=' name 1 single trainer in the UK between jumps and flat that runs their horses on their merits everytime, please.[/quote'] I can't Aidy - not at all. I would imagine they are all breaking the rules at some pouint whether it be through a lack of training, running the horse on unsuitable ground or whatever excuse they come up with! Like - 'it's been raining'!!! But that's my point entirely I guess - the game isn't straight and the rules are bent, twisted and abused. That's why I feel I need to take this into account more in my punting and that was the whole point (which I am now sorry for!) for starting the thread!! Up to now the basis for my selections was something like Price/Value, form, ground, distance, course.... I'm thinking it should be Market, market, market, form, value....

[Aidymac]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

I can't Aidy - not at all. I would imagine they are all breaking the rules at some pouint whether it be through a lack of training, running the horse on unsuitable ground or whatever excuse they come up with! Like - 'it's been raining'!!! But that's my point entirely I guess - the game isn't straight and the rules are bent, twisted and abused. That's why I feel I need to take this into account more in my punting and that was the whole point (which I am now sorry for!) for starting the thread!!

I fully see your point Saint. Skullduggery goes on in every single yard, no yard is not guilty of it. However, the likes of Carroll etc are more noticed, as they NEED these gambles to survive. My opinion is, you have to move on from the fact that racing is bent if you want to bet on racing. If you can't, then racing just isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with your thread by the way, but there are far more positives to horse racing than negative in my view, but some people just want to see the negatives.

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

I fully see your point Saint. Skullduggery goes on in every single yard, no yard is not guilty of it. However, the likes of Carroll etc are more noticed, as they NEED these gambles to survive. My opinion is, you have to move on from the fact that racing is bent if you want to bet on racing. If you can't, then racing just isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with your thread by the way, but there are far more positives to horse racing than negative in my view, but some people just want to see the negatives.

Fair enough - let's just agree to disagree on the NEED to land these plots. As far as the negatives go, I appreciate many will disagree but I believe that a streak of cynasism (is that even how u spell it!) is quite a good weapon to have with regards to staying in front. I'm probably not gonna move on from the fact that Racing is bent - I'm gonna exploit it and hopefully get paid because of it!! Sick of banging my head against the wall and fighting against an ever stronger tide.... I DO feel it's been more rife and less subtle this AW season though and I just wonder when saturation point might be reached.... By that - I mean no more layers and Bookmakers becoming even tighter.... Ever evolving - it never stays the same for too long!

[Aidymac]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... It is also worth noting, that in low grade races, a £400 bet could move a horse in the betting very significantly. The one McCoy won on in the last today, Mr Watson, was backed off the board and probably had a good couple of hundred thousand on it, at least, whereas in these Class 6 AW races, if £1,000 is put on a horse it could go from 6/1 into 3/1 in one go. That also has to be taken into consideration when looking at these gambles.

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... True, true - even today I've observed so much just watching the markets at different times of the day.... In the last (1700@Wolves) Monzino went from 4.5 to 9.0 and then back into 6.0 in the last 5 minutes before the off... Wins, although I've not watched the race as yet.... Obviously not every move is gonna be significant but by the looks of today alone, enough of them will be to increase ROI significantly!! :ok Rob's original BBOTD too - out from 6/1 to 25/1... I mean it's madness!!! Hope that hasn't hacked up now!! (evidently not - was in that 1700 at a BSP of 32.0!!)

[jayalexander]

Monzino had won recently AND had another entry into the coming days. Clearly connections thought that it was handicapped enough for a further win. I noticed this, so I profited. Simple :-) Recent winners with multiple entries is an excellent angle to follow!

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

Monzino had won recently AND had another entry into the coming days. Clearly connections thought that it was handicapped enough for a further win. I noticed this' date=' so I profited. Simple :-) Recent winners with multiple entries is an excellent angle to follow![/quote'] Also had a positive Topspeed figure 3 in advance of it's racing weight today.... Funny one in the market for sure. Well Done! Hope u got on towards the higher price!

[chris34]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

It is also worth noting' date=' that in low grade races, a £400 bet could move a horse in the betting very significantly. The one McCoy won on in the last today, Mr Watson, was backed off the board and probably had a good couple of hundred thousand on it, at least, whereas in these Class 6 AW races, if £1,000 is put on a horse it could go from 6/1 into 3/1 in one go. That also has to be taken into consideration when looking at these gambles.[/quote'] You rise a very good point, the horse in discussion was 8/1 in an overnight market on bet365 usually with overround of 130+% they are very very weak markets and takes tiny amounts to move a horse. Even markets on the day of race on the AW are very weak and takes little money to move anything (Wolverhampton notoriously volatile) take a look at Speed Steed today at Wolves in 2.50 opens 6/1 drifts all the way to 16/1 perhaps because of a big move on Merevale 12s into 9/2 but how much money was actually wagered?? BH raises a good point imo if you feel the race has a slight discrepancy for whatever reason you leave it and walk away for me and this is something I am learning to do more and more.

[jayalexander]

Also had a positive Topspeed figure 3 in advance of it's racing weight today.... Funny one in the market for sure. Well Done! Hope u got on towards the higher price!

Price isn't so important to me. It's winning that matters :-) Got 7/2, I think. I wasn't playing much stake. Always glad it passed the post first :-)

[Aidymac]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

Price isn't so important to me. It's winning that matters :-) Got 7/2' date=' I think. I wasn't playing much stake. Always glad it passed the post first :-)[/quote'] Price matters. It matters a lot. Would you have backed it at 4/6 ?

[jayalexander]

Price matters. It matters a lot. Would you have backed it at 4/6 ?

Well I did say it wasn't THAT important. Doubt i'll have backed at odds on, but 2/1 would have been alright. Sent from my GT-P3110 using PL Forum

[Aidymac]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

Well I did say it wasn't THAT important. Doubt i'll have backed at odds on, but 2/1 would have been alright. Sent from my GT-P3110 using PL Forum

:(

[jayalexander]

Why the sad face, Mr Wall?

[Chaostheorie]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... I stopped betting on the AW entirely because of those things. I bet almost exclusively in Group Races, where the Sport is much less corrupted than in the lower grades, especially the AW. I have an other approach now. Back in the days I was betting nearly every day, but now I have the view that you cannot beat the races when you bet frequently with several bets a week. I now wait for an opportunity and step in when I found a good bet. These opportunities arise from time to time when some horse in the big races is underestimated. In the big races bet a lot of mug punters and people who bet for fun. Under this circumstances there is a strong recency-bias und when you can identify an excuse for the last run of the horse you can find value sometimes. Also there are good antepost-prices from time to time. A winning punter need losing punters to make the game pay. In the big Group Races are many people that risk a bet although there not really into horse racing. I can't imagine these kind of people betting in a class6-handicap at Kempton.

[Chaostheorie]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... There is a good documentary on youtube. it is a little bit older, but still very interesting.

[Kithanga]

Didn't Dave Nevison say a simikar thing about the market in one of his value betting books? About how he used to go for value but the exchanges were proving that approach didn't work any more. You could stick to higher class stuff. Say class 1 and 2? They're all trying to win those. Sent from my GT-I9300 using PL Forum

[jtw1]

Re: Bent AW Racing..... Chaostheorie hitting it right on the head , the higher the grade of racing the less 'skull-duggery' you are likely to come across

[The Saint]

Chaostheorie hitting it right on the head ' date=' the higher the grade of racing the less 'skull-duggery' you are likely to come across[/quote'] A well worn thought - and a completely correct one too. It's just so few and far between though(the good racing) Appreciate that might sound like, 'I have to have a bet' but can assure u that's not the case! Just that I do think Bookmakers make more mistakes at the lower levels if u can get on.

[The Saint]

And your horse is trying....

[stat man]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

I fully see your point Saint. Skullduggery goes on in every single yard, no yard is not guilty of it. However, the likes of Carroll etc are more noticed, as they NEED these gambles to survive. My opinion is, you have to move on from the fact that racing is bent if you want to bet on racing. If you can't, then racing just isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with your thread by the way, but there are far more positives to horse racing than negative in my view, but some people just want to see the negatives.

Well said!!

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

Well said!!

The Sky is Blue

[The Saint]

Re: Bent AW Racing.....

There is a good documentary on youtube. it is a little bit older, but still very interesting.

Thanks for putting that up - can't believe I've never stumbled across it before. Shocking, shocking stuff. Time to decide - either expolit corruption and therefore condone it or carry on knowing it's out there!