1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

[furlong86]

Can anyone tell me why in some races there is 1/4 the odds for 3 placings and 1/5 the odds for 3 placings? I thought it was always 1/4 the odds for a place?

[mileni4uk]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds 1/4 for races that have 5,6 or 7 runners. Also for handicaps that have 12 runners or more. Every other race is 1/5. Non-handicaps are always 1/5 unless bookies offer 1/4 special.

[furlong86]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds oh ok,thanks for your fast response

[Aidymac]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Can anyone tell me why in some races there is 1/4 the odds for 3 placings and 1/5 the odds for 3 placings? I thought it was always 1/4 the odds for a place?

1/4 the odds in handicaps with 12 runners or more and in races with 5-7 runners.. All other races are 1/5 the odds

[mowgli77]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds 1/7 the odds on course and I think Fintron even found one bookie offering 1/8 the odds a place. :@ They wonder why the punters bet online. :wall

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Can anyone tell me why in some races there is 1/4 the odds for 3 placings and 1/5 the odds for 3 placings?

Very interesting question , its one I have been asking for many years. I must have asked dozens of betting shop managers and hard core racing experts without getting a satisfactory answer. Maybe some of the regular forum experts can answer this .

[mowgli77]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

No. of Runners/Type of Race	Place Terms
2-4 runners	No place betting allowed
5-7 runners	1st and 2nd one quarter the odds
8+ runners	1st, 2nd and 3rd one fifth odds
Handicaps 12-15 runners	1st, 2nd and 3rd one quarter odds
Handicaps 16+ runners	1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th one quarter odds

[mowgli77]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Very interesting question , its one I have been asking for many years. I must have asked dozens of betting shop managers and hard core racing experts without getting a satisfactory answer. Maybe some of the regular forum experts can answer this .

8 runner listed race 1/5 odds first 3 12 runner handicap 1/4 odds first 3 EW terms depend on runners and type of race. Occasionally a bookie will offer 1/4 odds instead of a 1/5th to get business, not all bookies will offer these terms. Cheltenham will be a good example.

[Aidymac]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Very interesting question , its one I have been asking for many years. I must have asked dozens of betting shop managers and hard core racing experts without getting a satisfactory answer. Maybe some of the regular forum experts can answer this .

I think it is because in an average handicap , you might get odds varying from maybe 3/1 to 33/1 , whereas in maidens the odds may range from 3/1 to 200/1, with so many longshots in maidens that most of the time maybe 4 or 5 horses have a realistic chance, whereas in a handicap every horse is supposed to have an equal chance? Maybe im talking jibberish, but thats the way i have always felt about it.. I think a 4/1 shot in a maiden has a better chance of being placed than a 4/1 shot in a handicap... ???????? :lol

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Sorry if didn't make myself clear. Yes I know the place terms , the OP was asking why some are 1/4 and 1/5. So why in a 25 runner maiden does it pay 3 places @ 1/5 but a 25 runner handicap 4 places 1/4 odds ? The typical answer is often " ........its been like that for years ...." which doesn't explain why . Can anyone give a satisfactory answer without suggesting the bookies can do what they like ? To me non handicaps with big fields , is an excuse for ripping punters off.

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Interesting idea Aidymac but I don't think its quite on the spot , anybody else ?

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Any of the horse racing experts on here know ?

[Trotter]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Well I guess that if one-fifth odds is the historical norm from time immemorial (as they say to explain things that just have always been so) then you can see one-quarter odds as a bookies bonus to tempt people into betting on the races they want you to bet in, ie big field handicaps As to why one-fifth was the accepted norm I have no idea. It would be interesting to know if one-fifth was the norm before decimal currency In ancient times (when I was a lad) we had farthings which were a fourth of a penny - so any bet could have been settled at one-quarter odds without resorting to difficult fractions of a penny, ie could have been settled in whole amounts of currency It would make sense if one-quarter odds was the historical norm

[BillyHills]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Tattersalls made the betting laws many moons ago (1853) and they have been revised a few times since especially with the introduction of (legal) betting shops in 1961. I have no idea why a 1/5 and a 1/4 were used as the place terms, I know once they wanted to change it a 1/6th when the fav was odds on? I'll try and find out with a bit of research, good question though:ok

[cpo]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Sorry if didn't make myself clear. Yes I know the place terms , the OP was asking why some are 1/4 and 1/5. So why in a 25 runner maiden does it pay 3 places @ 1/5 but a 25 runner handicap 4 places 1/4 odds ? The typical answer is often " ........its been like that for years ...." which doesn't explain why . Can anyone give a satisfactory answer without suggesting the bookies can do what they like ? To me non handicaps with big fields , is an excuse for ripping punters off.

Totally agree with you. I think any race with 16+ runners should at least pay 4 places

[keithbeaky]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds So an 16 runner maiden where they bet 1/2, 9/4, 12 and 50 bar should pay 4 places? They'd be overbroke betting 3 places, let alone 4

[cpo]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Fair point but the majority of people are going to be on the odds on shot and the 2nd fav so surely it wouldn't make that much difference. You may get the odd 50p punter backing the big outsiders each way but the big hitters are surely on the top 2 in the market in your example

[keithbeaky]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds The big hitters are on the second fav ew.

[Tedthewolf]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

1/7 the odds on course and I think Fintron even found one bookie offering 1/8 the odds a place. :@ They wonder why the punters bet online. :wall

Its just not on that at all, ridiculous that the thieving Bas????s can get away with it they shouldn't be able too full stop.

[keithbeaky]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Do you lot know much about percentages and being overbroke?

[benreado]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds It's easy to see why bookies aren't laying 4 places or 1/4 odds in maidens and novice events especially those with short priced horses. Due to the nature of the race you're going to get very different classes of horse and in a 20 runner maiden there's often probably 10 horses you can rule out. In this scenario and when there's an odds on favorite if a bookmaker was offering 4 places it would be easy to manipulate your e/w stakes in a way that guarantees long term profit. However, in a competitive novice event for example at the Cheltenham festival you will often get enhanced place terms such as 1/4 odds, 1/3 odds and occasionally even 4 places in a very competitive race with a big field and no strong favorite. I remember in October this year at Cheltenham one on course bookmaker was offering 2 places 1/5 odds in a 4 runner novice chase! Then evens favorite and 5/1 3f both fell and I'm sure many punters took advantage of these stand out place terms and were delighted to see the 20/1 outsider finished second!

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds I cannot accept those who suggest that you get more outsiders in maidens. You can just as easily get bettings shows of 1/2 , 5/2 and the rest double figures in a maiden as you can in a handicap. After many years of thinking , I still cannot see why they have different place terms. Personally I'd like to see all 16+ runner fields pay 4 places (25% minimum )at 1/4 the odds. For fields of over 25 5 places ( again minimum 25%) , such as races like the Grand National and the Lincoln. The bookies must lick their lips each Grand National when most of the nation have a flutter because of they only pay out 10% of the field. For the big heritage handicaps they pay out on about 13% of the field when 30 line up. I know its very unlikely to happen but it is very much feasible with profit built into the odds.

[Aidymac]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

I cannot accept those who suggest that you get more outsiders in maidens. You can just as easily get bettings shows of 1/2 , 5/2 and the rest double figures in a maiden as you can in a handicap. After many years of thinking , I still cannot see why they have different place terms. Personally I'd like to see all 16+ runner fields pay 4 places (25% minimum )at 1/4 the odds. For fields of over 25 5 places ( again minimum 25%) , such as races like the Grand National and the Lincoln. The bookies must lick their lips each Grand National when most of the nation have a flutter because of they only pay out 10% of the field. For the big heritage handicaps they pay out on about 13% of the field when 30 line up. I know its very unlikely to happen but it is very much feasible with profit built into the odds.

How often do you see over half the field ranging from 33/1 to 200/1 in a handicap? You dont. I think we should be grateful to have 1/4 the odds on any race

[keithbeaky]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds You can just as easily get shows of 1/2, 5/2, double figures bar in a handicap as you can a maiden on the flat or maiden/novice hurdle. That statement is so far off im afraid. Tell me how many handicaps look like the first at Folkestone today? Or the maiden on the AW yesterday. Out of interest how did they place in yesterdays AW maiden?? In a handicap you are supposed to have horses who are all around the same ability and this is levelled out further with the better horses carrying more weight. In a maiden or novice hurdle this does not happen. Im sorry but you are so far off its ridiculous. And as for the Grand National when firms have paid 5 places they've often done it at a loss and simply a PR exercise. If you owned a shop would you sell something for less than bought it from the wholesaler?

[keithbeaky]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds Oh and by the way ALL maidens and novice hurdles with an odds-on shot, the place book will be overbroke paying THREE places, let alone four.

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

I think we should be grateful to have 1/4 the odds on any race

Genuine question , on what basis should we be grateful ?

[Aidymac]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Genuine question ' date=' on what basis should we be grateful ?[/quote'] Because back in the day it used be always 1/5 the odds. As someone already said here, think is was BH, 1/4 the odds was brought in as a special, and now we have 1/4 the odds on loads of the races every day. Not only that, we have Best Odds Guaranteed with 7 different firms. For ante-post racing, a week before the race you can back Non runner no bet.. Your never happy with anything, your a compulsive whinger.If we get 1/4 odds all racing, you will be whinging we should be getting 1/3. Im happy as a punter, i think best odds guaranteed has been the best offer to get, in the past week or so i backed a horse @ 4/1, it won at 8/1, also backed a horse @ 9/4 and got the SP of 11/2. There is no way in hell bookmakers can afford to give 4 places and 1/4 odds on any race with 16 runners, if you have any bit of math you will see its financial suicide. Imagine a 16 runner maiden and the betting is: 4/6, 4/1, 6/1, 14/1, 25/1, 33/1, 50/1 bar in a 16 runner field, and offering 4 places and 1/4 the odds??? You barking mad?

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Im sorry but you are so far off its ridiculous.

I don't see why I am so far off , can you give a decent explanation ? I did suggest that if paying 5 places for 25 runners or more they have their profit built into the prices. Let me give you a simplistic example. Lets say there is a 20 runner handicap , thus paying 4 places and they take £1EW on every single horse , making a total £40 collected. If the first 4 had an SP of 16/1 the payout would be £22 £5 £5 £5 £37 total payout. £3 profit in my simplistic example. Realistically most of the money will be on the lower priced horses and therefore very few will have the winner , thus creating more profit , but this shows you even at 16/1 they make money. In my opinion bookies make a profit more often than not in most races regardless of the SP of the winner.

[erhaab1965]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

Because back in the day it used be always 1/5 the odds. As someone already said here, think is was BH, 1/4 the odds was brought in as a special, and now we have 1/4 the odds on loads of the races every day. Not only that, we have Best Odds Guaranteed with 7 different firms. For ante-post racing, a week before the race you can back Non runner no bet.. Your never happy with anything, your a compulsive whinger.If we get 1/4 odds all racing, you will be whinging we should be getting 1/3. Im happy as a punter, i think best odds guaranteed has been the best offer to get, in the past week or so i backed a horse @ 4/1, it won at 8/1, also backed a horse @ 9/4 and got the SP of 11/2. There is no way in hell bookmakers can afford to give 4 places and 1/4 odds on any race with 16 runners, if you have any bit of math you will see its financial suicide. Imagine a 16 runner maiden and the betting is: 4/6, 4/1, 6/1, 14/1, 25/1, 33/1, 50/1 bar in a 16 runner field, and offering 4 places and 1/4 the odds??? You barking mad?

No need to tell me it was 1/5 back in the day , the EW terms have always been the same since I started punting over 20 years ago. Can you tell me what distinguishes 1/4 from 1/5 the odds and why they are used , thats the crux of the question , never mind that it was established before great grand father was born. Would they still make profit if they were 1/4 all races , probably yes. Don't say that I'm a compulsive whinger , I am just asking a difficult question which I not not had a satisfactory answer to. Its the same with other topics , it is a gambling forum isn't it and not just here to showcase peoples tipping abilities. I applaud Best Odds Guarentee offered at the moment but thats just on a tiny proportion of their turnover ,its just a gimmick , no real generosity , merely copying their rivals. If it became extremely popular they would take this facility away. Why do you think its not offered in the shops? Care to explain what is so suicidal about your betting example ? What if the 4/6 failed to win , wouldn't the money taken on that horse be more than enough to pay all the 50pEW merchants ? Lets say your local shop takes £1400 on the 4/6 fav but the winner was 14/1 , would you say they would take £100 on the winner to break even on this matchup ? I don't know the turnover not LBOs but I guess not

[Aidymac]

Re: 1/4 the odds & 1/5 the odds

No need to tell me it was 1/5 back in the day , the EW terms have always been the same since I started punting over 20 years ago. Can you tell me what distinguishes 1/4 from 1/5 the odds and why they are used , thats the crux of the question , never mind that it was established before great grand father was born. Would they still make profit if they were 1/4 all races , probably yes. Don't say that I'm a compulsive whinger , I am just asking a difficult question which I not not had a satisfactory answer to. Its the same with other topics , it is a gambling forum isn't it and not just here to showcase peoples tipping abilities. I applaud Best Odds Guarentee offered at the moment but thats just on a tiny proportion of their turnover ,its just a gimmick , no real generosity , merely copying their rivals. If it became extremely popular they would take this facility away. Why do you think its not offered in the shops? Care to explain what is so suicidal about your betting example ? What if the 4/6 failed to win , wouldn't the money taken on that horse be more than enough to pay all the 50pEW merchants ? Lets say your local shop takes £1400 on the 4/6 fav but the winner was 14/1 , would you say they would take £100 on the winner to break even on this matchup ? I don't know the turnover not LBOs but I guess not

BOG is offered in all shops here in Ireland. The likelihood is that the 4/6 shot will win, thats why its 4/6.. Then if you have the 2nd fav, 3rd fav and 4th fav making up the remaining 3 places? They will be robbed blind.. Not only that but if there were 4 places on offer, far more people will opt away from the odds on fav and back something e/w, as the e/w terms would be far too tempting not to back.