Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

[robilaruk]

Villian limped QQ about 4 hands ago and got his cash all-in on a rag flop So I am folding this right? Damo ***** Hand 1343980488 ***** 100.00/200.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 01 December 2008 15:59:40 Cooler (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: falkfeier (3040.00) Seat 2: hammern2 (1992.00) Seat 3: Marusan (1680.00) Seat 4: Unknown (0.00) Seat 5: diamondis (1519.00) Seat 6: Unknown (0.00) Seat 7: Spade83 (1255.00) Seat 8: robilaruk (2619.00) Seat 9: elomicka (2370.00) Seat 10: adivat (525.00) Spade83 post SB 100.00 robilaruk post BB 200.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [Ks, Kd] *** Bet Round 1 *** elomicka Fold adivat Fold falkfeier Call 200.00 hammern2 Fold Marusan Fold diamondis Fold Spade83 Fold robilaruk Raise to 688.00 falkfeier All-in 3040.00

[daftpegasus]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player I'm calling here - there's still 8 players left and you have a very good chance to double up and basically guarentee making the money. If he has AA or gets lucky then so be it.

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player That's a tough one - having put 25% of your stack in..... If you fold, then you have 68.5% equity. If you call and win you have 96.4% equity. If you call and lose, then you have 0% equity. So if you're 50/50 (e.g. his range is exactly AA,KK,QQ) then it's a big mistake to call (your equity is 48.2%) The "tipping point" where it doesnt make any difference if you call or fold is if your chance of winning the hand is 71%. So you need to be better than 71% against his range. This occurs with a range for him of about top 8.3% (88+, AJo+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs) - in order to call, you must believe that it is possible for him to make this move with hands like A9s, ATo, 77, KQo, QTs - if you can see him doing it with any of those, then you can call, if you cannot, then you should fold. In the absense of specific information against this player to suggest he could be making this move that loosely, I think I fold. Would you have been better off shoving, rather than making the mini raise and giving yourself the tough decision? Then you're giving him the tough choice (potential to make a mistake) rather than giving yourself a tough choice (and the potential to make a mistake) - chances are he hasn't got aces (unless he's called teaulc :tongue2)

[AJ]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player I don't even see any reason for doubt, it's an instapush You still have two players to go and will need to play one more at least I think. I think his range is wider than you think. But yeah, I agree lead off with a shove

[Blatch]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player We seriously considering folding????????

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

We seriously considering folding????????

Yes :$ If the 700 chips hadnt gone in, I probably fold easily :$ What do you think his range is? If he's not incompetent (nothing in the OP to suggest he is) then we have to assume he knows he can probably fold into the money and isnt check raising light....

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player The more I look at it, the more I dislike the mini raise pre flop - if you cannot get away from it - then maximise your fold equity and shove. You dont want to be encouraging action - you just want to take it down.....

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player I would have checked pre-flop and seen a free flop, and would only be voluntarily putting chips in if another K comes down. As it is, with the chips that are already in, I am going to call this and hope he doesn't have AA. It's likely we'd be looking for a spot to shove at some later point in this Cooler now that we're down to 1900, and it's unlikely we'll get to shove with better than KK.

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

and it's unlikely we'll get to shove with better than KK.

But you dont need to shove with better than KK, because you are calling all in with KK here - worse cards with fold equity can be more valuable than KK without fold equity.....

[slapdash]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

Villian limped QQ about 4 hands ago and got his cash all-in on a rag flop

To judge how relevant that info is, I think we also need to know what the chip stacks of the players were then. Here he is a huge favourite to cash if he folds, but is risking getting crippled by going all-in. Was that also the case last time? Also, last time I presume there was no raise pre-flop? If so, you don't know what he'd have done with his queens if somebody had raised. I'd only consider playing the way he has on this hand with aces, so playing against me I'd fold like a shot.

[robilaruk]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

Would you have been better off shoving, rather than making the mini raise and giving yourself the tough decision? Then you're giving him the tough choice (potential to make a mistake) rather than giving yourself a tough choice (and the potential to make a mistake) - chances are he hasn't got aces (unless he's called teaulc :tongue2)

Why would I want to shove against one limper? I am not desperate, if I fold I still have 8-9BB's left, about average for the table. I am suprised folks are talking about shoving here. And the min raise? I raised about 2.5BB (488) I am sure someone else mentions that as their standard raise....... (OK I didn't take into consideration his limp, but its not different to me raising his BB if I am the CO).

[robilaruk]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

To judge how relevant that info is, I think we also need to know what the chip stacks of the players were then. Here he is a huge favourite to cash if he folds, but is risking getting crippled by going all-in. Was that also the case last time? Also, last time I presume there was no raise pre-flop? If so, you don't know what he'd have done with his queens if somebody had raised. I'd only consider playing the way he has on this hand with aces, so playing against me I'd fold like a shot.

Last time blinds were 50/100 (they went up last hand) he limped from mid-late position with about 1600 chips or so; SB made up BB checked. Flop Jxx. SB checked, BB shoved for about 1300 or so, He calls, BB has J9 and doesn't improve. I made a note on his play and so it was fresh in my mind about an orbit later when he played like this. I don't think he is a muppet, I don't think he is shoving with shite. I think he is probably slightly better than average for this level. I have made a couple of similar raises (odd numbers) from LP and shown AK and QQ, so my raise is not unusual for the table. I got my chips from a BB special with A3, I flopped 2 pair and the A9 limper couldn't let his hand go to my CRAI. Does that help? Damo

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

Why would I want to shove against one limper? I am not desperate' date=' if I fold I still have 8-9BB's left, about average for the table. I am suprised folks are talking about shoving here.[/quote'] I might have kings, but because it's a cooler, I dont want action - I dont want to see a flop - I'm ecstatic to win 500 chips (I am winning 500 chips, even though 200 of them were mine before the hand - once I put them into the pot, they're no longer mine) - taking it down and moving to 3000 chips will leave me very comfortable.

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

I don't think he is a muppet' date=' I don't think he is shoving with shite. I think he is probably slightly better than average for this level.[/quote'] Ah - valuable new information - that makes it a straightforward fold for me then.....

[pokerlife]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player You must call. First of all his range is bigger then AA only. You mentioned he did it with QQ and im sure he's capable of similar plays with AK and JJ or even TT. The main reasons you are calling is that your M is 9 to start the hand so you are looking for a hand to make a move with and you have put 1/4 of your stack into the pot. i would not fold AK QQ or KK here. even JJ or TT would be hard to fold for me unless theres is some special conisderation. Other reasons are that his m is 10 so he should be looking for a spot to make a move and he could perceive your raise as an attack on the limped pot(being last to act).the fact he is in 3rd position may or may not be overly relevant. Obviously your actions of late could have an influence also: If you had raised and folded to a reraise recently or been stealing alot of pots then he may have cause to feel his fold equity is substantial with the move. edit* 6 is bubble yea? what is prize payouts? if this is 100k for 6 and up then maybe you can fold but in lower stakes weaker tournys you simply don't have to make such exceptional laydowns. A little maths: if you fold your stack is 1931, if you call and lose your stack is 0, if you call and win your stack is 5338. you are 62.031% against a range of AA,QQ,KK,JJ,AK(remember that there are 2 kings in your hand)I think this is a very reasonable range(perhaps even conservative) So if you call your expectation is to finish the hand with 3311.215. In fact if his range is only AA KK and QQ you MUST call. REEDIT* i think the reason not to shove is because (although you are getting pretty needy for some spots) you WANT either a call or for someone to make a move.If he has made a move with QQ again or JJ or AK then this is a fantastic result for you. What is his PR(preflop raise%: VP(%occasions where he voluntarily puts money into the pot) ratio? if his PR is very low then his range is probably quite wide.

[slapdash]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

You must call. First of all his range is bigger then AA only. You mentioned he did it with qq and im sure he's capable of similar plays with ak and jj or even TT. The main reasons you are calling is that your M is 9 to start the hand so you are looking for a hand to make a move with and you have put 1/4 of your stack into the pot. i would not fold ak qq or kk here. even jj or tt would be hard to fold for me unless theres is some special conisderation. Other reasons are that his m is 10 so he should be looking for a spot to make a move and he could perceive your raise as an attack on the limped pot(being last to act).the fact he is in 3rd position may or may not be overly relevant. Obviously your actions of late could have an influence also: If you had raised and folded to a reraise recently or been stealing alot of pots then he may have cause to feel his fold equity is substantial with the move.

I think you've probably missed that this is a "cooler" STT? I.e., 1st to 5th places all get paid the same, so the object is purely to survive to the last five.

[billy the punter]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

The more I look at it' date=' the more I dislike the mini raise pre flop - if you cannot get away from it - then maximise your fold equity and shove. You dont want to be encouraging action - you just want to take it down.....[/quote'] I have to agree. With a bigger stack already in the pot I will always over bet and nearly always move in here preflop. You really don't want a bigger stack making a move on you, or mores to the point making a move, you calling and them getting lucky. Chip gathering is less important as we know, you don't need action here. I'm definitely all-in in this situation, the 500 already in the middle is enough to put you in a comfortable position with regards to cashing. If he calls you with AA - that's poker......onto the next. :ok

[robilaruk]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

I You really don't want a bigger stack making a move on you, or mores to the point making a move, you calling and them getting lucky. Chip gathering is less important as we know, you don't need action here.

Cheers Billy So now that he has 'made a move' I am calling or folding? Damo

[billy the punter]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

Cheers Billy So now that he has 'made a move' I am calling or folding? Damo

Not saying HE has made a move, just saying that you leave yourself open to such a play. This situation is tough and I've never faced a decision like this in a cooler - it's tough. If I call and win I am a cert to cash. If I pass, I still fancy my chances to cash here. Now, I'm folding a lot of hands in this spot - all of us would. Now if he is a good player, he KNOWS this and it's possible he is applying pressure without a monster, it's possible at least (which kinda brings us back to my original point). Given the info we have I don't think there is a "wrong" action here. I'd probably call today and pass tomorrow. The better I rated my opponent (with regards to coolers) the MORE likely I am to call here.

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

A little maths: if you fold your stack is 1931, if you call and lose your stack is 0, if you call and win your stack is 5338. you are 62.031% against a range of AA,QQ,KK,JJ,AK(remember that there are 2 kings in your hand)I think this is a very reasonable range(perhaps even conservative) So if you call your expectation is to finish the hand with 3311.215.

If his range is AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK and you know that this is his range, then it is a simple, no brainer fold!! If you fold, then you have 68.541% equity in the tournament with your 1931 chips. If you call and win, then you have 96.38% equity in the tournament with your 5338 chips. If you call and split the pot, you have 78.803% equity in the tournament with your 2669 chips. If you call and lose, then you are out and have 0% equity in the tournament. If you call, then your expectation against his range is: 60.55% of the time you win and have 96.38% equity 4.1% of the time you split the pot and have 78.803% equity 35.35% of the time you lose and have 0% equity. So your expectation is (.6055 x .9638) + (.041 x .78803) + (.3535 x 0) = 61.589% equity. Now your choice is simple: Fold and have 68.541% equity Call for an expectation of 61.589% equity. Your KK against a range of JJ+,AKs, Ako is a massive massive massive fold

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

REEDIT* i think the reason not to shove is because (although you are getting pretty needy for some spots) you WANT either a call or for someone to make a move.If he has made a move with QQ again or JJ or AK then this is a fantastic result for you.

I have to disagree strongly with this - in coolers you almost never want a call!!! If you have KK and shove and he has AK and he lets you choose whether he calls or folds, then you fold his AK to your shove. If you shove and he folds, then you have 2919 chips and 81.576% tournament equity. If you shove and he calls and you win, then you have 96.38% tournament equity. If you shove and he calls and you lose then you have 0% tournament equity If you shove, he calls and the pot is split then you have 78.905% tournament equity. If he calls, you win 68.46% of the time, lose 30.70% of the time and split 0.84% of the time. The expectation if he calls is (68.46% x 96.38%) + (0.84% x 78.905%) = 66.6% Tournament equity. If he folds you have 81.576% tournmanet equity - that's huge. It's so huge in fact (and I'm surprised its quite that large), that if you have KK and he has QQ, you still want him to fold!! If he calls with QQ, then your equity expectation is (81.7% x 96.38%) + (0.46% x 78.905%) = 79.1% (against 81.5% when he folds). I even looked at what happens when you have KK and he has 23o and you only just want him to call in that scenario....

[pokerlife]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

If his range is AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK and you know that this is his range, then it is a simple, no brainer fold!! If you fold, then you have 68.541% equity in the tournament with your 1931 chips. If you call and win, then you have 96.38% equity in the tournament with your 5338 chips. If you call and split the pot, you have 78.803% equity in the tournament with your 2669 chips. If you call and lose, then you are out and have 0% equity in the tournament. If you call, then your expectation against his range is: 60.55% of the time you win and have 96.38% equity 4.1% of the time you split the pot and have 78.803% equity 35.35% of the time you lose and have 0% equity. So your expectation is (.6055 x .9638) + (.041 x .78803) + (.3535 x 0) = 61.589% equity. Now your choice is simple: Fold and have 68.541% equity Call for an expectation of 61.589% equity. Your KK against a range of JJ+,AKs, Ako is a massive massive massive fold

As was mentioned by someone, i clearly misunderstood the term cooler. i didnt understand it was a bubble spot with equal payouts and i was applying my thoughts to a general tournament situation. (cooler as in the double or nothing sngs yea?)In light of my new understanding of the term cooler it is a clear fold.

[daftpegasus]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player I'm surprised with the results of this thread. When I read it first I expected about 4 replies saying easy call, and that would be the end of it. However it has generated a lot of debate so I've gone back and had a look at it again in more detail to see if the debate has made me change my mind. There are 8 players left, only one of them short stacked so there's likely to be a fair bit of play before the game is finished. The blinds are 100/200 so enough to start to affect people and it means we're in the situation in these games where people shove all in rather than play poker. If you fold you're left with less than 2000 chips, back in the pack with most other players meaning that you will have to risk your tournament life at some point (probably with a shove in position). The hand has played out thus: One limper and folds around to the BB. The BB raises. This is a standard play from a BB in this situation - you can do it with a wide range of starting hands. I'm sure I've seen people on here saying they play it just like that on other cooler strategy threads. Therefore the only give away that we have a decent hand is the size of the raise. The question is has the opponent spotted that sign and shoved because he too has a monster and believes he will get paid off, or, has the opponent just seen the raise on the BB against a limper and thought he's making a standard play, therefore if the opponent shoves you have to lay it down. With the information we currently have on the opponent it could be either. Now at least I'm considering folding which is good because I'm learning. If this was the bubble it's an easy fold. Even one off the bubble, it's a much easier decision because I could probably fold my way into the money. But in this situation I cannot expect to do that. Would I rather call with KK for my tournament life or shove with ATC in position later for the same risk? If we believe the opponent to be a good player who knows how to play these types of games then we also know that he knows the 'correct' play is to shove because he knows that the 'correct' play for you is to fold. That assumes he rates you as a good player too. OK a couple of things here stand out for me and help me make my mind up. You're going to have to take a chance in this game at some point - I'd rather do that with the second best starting hand than with ATC's later. If he has AA then so be it. Anything else then I've got my money in when ahead - if he beats me from that position so be it. Maybe I'm a poor player for not being able to lay down my KK's in this position but up against a single opponent and this far off the money I'd have to take a chance and call.

[Tweetypie05]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player Excellent thread! There is a lot of good discussion here that has made me think waaaaaayyyy too hard so my head now hurts. :unsure At the time of playing with only a few seconds to think I am sure I would have to call this as I know if I double here I should cash easily. The stack sizes are such that this is not necessary yet but I think I am ahead and would quite happily call here. I expect he has AK or AQs but not AA, though I could be wrong, so there is a risk (30%ish) of losing. The key lesson I believe I have learnt from this is that the bet preflop was not big enough, as many of you have said. Action is not what you want here IMO but to take the blinds and the limpers chips. The pre-flop shove seems most appropriate here to take down a pot and increase my stack by 20%. If he had AA he would still call and the same is probably true of AK so not sure this would have changed the villains moves, but it does put him to the test rather than the other way around. Don't suppose he showed his hand afterwards??? :loon

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player Nice post DP - but fogive me if I "probe" a little deeper into your views.... We need to use our judgement, our feel, to estimate what range of hands our opponent could have played, given what we know about him, the way he has played this hand. After that (and ignoring any "metagame" factors) the action we should take is pretty much a simple mathematical equation (using ICM equity methodology, which seems pretty accurate and effective) - if we argue against that solution, with no added information, then we're basically trying to argue that two plus two does not equal four. Once we've used our judgemental abilities to estimate his range, then the maths tells us what to do. I dont believe you can argue against the maths - all you can do is tweak, adjust and question your original judgements on his range. So going back to my post in post 20. If we make the judgement, the assesment, that our villains range is AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK then the maths show us that we have to fold and if we call then we are making a huge mistake. (Assuming I haven't made an error in my maths) you cannot argue with the answer - if we believe our judgement on his range, and we fold, then we have made an error. It doesnt matter that we may need to shove worse cards later on - the situation now, given our assumptions on villains range is that our tournament equity is higher if we fold, than if we call. Assuming its a $5+50c tournament with $10 prizes - the question you effectively need to answer is "Should I fold and take a seat worth $6.85 or call and take a seat worth $6.16" - it really does seem that straightforward a question to me (without developing onto putting our opponent on wider ranges) :unsure So now onto the "probe" .... :tongue2 You seem to have decided to call, without explicitly puting your opponent on a range - almost "I'll gamble - if he has me beat, so be it" - that's not the way to play poker IMO - I think (especially in post game analysis) you have to put your opponent on a range, then calculate the "right decision", given your judgements. So - Given everything we know about our opponent, and given everything our opponent knows about us, and given the way the betting has gone, what range of cards do you feel it is reasonable to assume that the villain could have made this limp/reraise move with? Once you've made your judgement on his range, then we can calculate whether, given your "feel", you should call or fold. If the answer is that you should fold, but you still feel that you should call, then you're not trusting your judgement! Overriding your judgement (and the maths behind your feel) cannot be the best way to play poker :unsure

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

At the time of playing with only a few seconds to think I am sure I would have to call this

Me too :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol But it's when the post game analysis differs from our in game view that we need to really think about it and understand the difference - that's when we can learn the most :nana :cow :nana :cow

[GaF]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

We seriously considering folding????????

Ok - when I first replied to you, I was lacking in confidence a bit with my position (instinctively folding KK here seems crazy) - but noone's picked any big holes in my argument, or managed to persuade me otherwise, so my confidence has grown a bit.... You're clearly an excellent player, as demonstrated by the fact that you've taken down a bigger tournament than anyone on PL (I believe) :ok So I am really interested in your view.... Your initial brief reply implies a certain amount of incredulity that anyone could even consider folding here, much less actually do it - do you still feel the same? Have I persuaded you at all that folding KK is even worth considering? If not, and you still consider that it shouldnt even be considered, can I ask you to expand on it please, and to try and persuade me that it shouldn't be considered? Where's the error in my thinking? What am I missing? Final question (for the moment :tongue2) - can you just confirm that you understand the structure, and that you understand that this is nothing like a standard STT? (I wonder if you've made the same error as pokerlife?)

[robilaruk]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

Me too :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol But it's when the post game analysis differs from our in game view that we need to really think about it and understand the difference - that's when we can learn the most :nana :cow :nana :cow

spot on - by posting and discussing hands like this should all make us better players :ok Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

what range of cards do you feel it is reasonable to assume that the villain could have made this limp/reraise move with?

Exactly right, without out we are pissing in the wind IMHO, yes I have KK, but I am desperae enough to call? Thats my real question, can I fold and still cash? or do i need to call here? Am really pleased with all the input, has made this a very interesting thread :clap Damo

[daftpegasus]

Re: Cooler KK in the BB - re-shove from a tight player

Nice post DP - but fogive me if I "probe" a little deeper into your views....

There's nothing to forgive you for. These threads are designed to get people thinking and seeing the same hand from different view points. If you and others hadn't replied in the way you did I wouldn't have even decided I needed to relook at the thread and my decision to call. Indeed it would be a dull forum if we didn't have different views on played hands and didn't arrive at different conclusions from time to time. It has to be highlighted that we only have knowledge about this player based on one hand that Damo has mentioned, which clearly, statistically, cannot be relied upon. However from what has been said I think we can probably agree that he is a decent player. If we agree that he's a decent player who know's how to play Cooler's then you can put him on a much wider range of starting hands than the one's you suggest. Why? Firstly he will have seen raises from the BB against a limper enough to know that the BB could raise with a wide range of hands - therefore his middle pp (for example) could be well ahead. Secondly he know's that you're calling for your tournament life which you can only do in this situation with a premium pp. In terms of his cards the only hand I'm worried about is AA, anything else I'm beating when the chips go in, so the question is can I put him on AA? Based on one hand earlier the answer is maybe, but that was QQ and I can see many arguements for limping with QQ to at least see a flop. Would a decent player limp with AA in early position, 8 handed in a cooler? Let's consider the views of the many decent players here on PL. A number of them have said in this very thread that Damo should have shoved his KK and be happy to pick up the blinds. I don't believe any of us Cooler players would slow play AA in his position. Has he slow played his AA? If he has then IMHO he's not a decent player and he's got very lucky that he's ended up against only one player. If we credit him as being a decent player then I don't believe he's slow played his AA and I'm happy to take a risk with KK against any other starting hand. If you really want a hand range I could see someone make the same play with these types of hands 66+, A9+, KQ, KJs, QJs. I accept that the maths says it's a fold but poker is not an exact science and it's not simply a game of cards.:D