Bruise Pristene Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 ... i need to know whether its time to call it a day Been trying to get into poker properly, playing at a mix of £0.15/£0.25 tables and the odd £1 over the last 4 months or so playing at these limits, i must be down at least £150 maybe more but daren't add it all up. At these limits its a fortune i think, but a fortune anyway. There's even bills I cant really pay no becuase of it! I've been playing tight, not playing stupid hands, been reading all the tips on web i can find and will only move chips in with something substantial, not spunking it away on silly gut shots. but I keep getting beat by people making what i would call "stupid" bets that work out for them. Example: just played on a table, got given AKsuited(hearts), player acting UTG raised about 10 times BB so called, everyone folded, out comes AcAs6d. At this point he goes all in, so I have to call given my hand (as only way he dominates is with A6, or 66), he turns over 5d Jd (ie nothing), turn brings 2d, river brings 8d and he beats me with a flush :puke this hand is just typical of so many, you could argue that I should have raised instead of call, but he prob would have still gone all in. The dilemma i have is this, really can't afford to move up blind limits to get rid of all these people that don't play the game properly, but also can't affors to lose as much as I am. As I'm playing tight and not many hands, when I do get one like this and play, and end up in this situation, I've just waited 20mins to pass all my chips to someone I know you will all say that in the long run they will lose his money playing like that, but that doesn't help me, because my bank roll can't absorb enough loses until i meet the same players again, plus they take my chips and will lose them to someone else, leaving me still broke!! I thought when I started playing poker it would take a bit of a loss to learn games and play properly, but I just feel I'm getting nowhere. What i dont understand is this, I would consider myself a clever bloke, who's good at maths and probability yet I must be shite at poker to lose so much, and I don't under stand why ! :lol so do i call it a day and shut my poker accounts, or perservere hoping luck will even itself out before I have to file for bankruptcy?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... if any gambling poker or otherwise gets in the way of your ability to function and pay bills then stop. if it's not, then don't close the accounts, play soem freerolls, try and win soem money for nothing, then go into the low level STT's. Aviod cash games, until you have real money behind you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruise Pristene Posted May 13, 2006 Author Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Actually just thinking rereading that, about the bills part, don't mean it to sound like I can't pay mortgage. The bills I've been referring to are "social bills" like having to say no to going out cos deposited money on account, that kind of thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gazza271 Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Agree totally with Fools. For me and I think the majority of PL we play for FUN and the cash that comes along is a bonus. If it's getting to the stage of worrying about the money and social bills then take a step back, dont chase the money thats already gone. Play a few freerolls and start slowly building up the bankroll again before going near the cash tables. You've probably read loads of posts on here about people having rough streaks, mine lasted about 4 months when no matter what hand i had i was being rivered etc but it really will even itself out in the long run. I think above all you need to get back to the stage where you enjoy playing poker again. Hope the above does'nt sound condascending. We all love AND hate this game, but give it up - Not a chance:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Echo what everyone else said. I've just come off a bad run where I lost my entire bank-roll. I deposited £10 and my bank-roll is now bigger than it was before I had my disatrous run (and no jokes about what £12.50? please:lol). I know it's a cliche but it's all swings and roundabouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruise Pristene Posted May 13, 2006 Author Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... thanks for the advice guys, have the problem that I do play for enjoyment as well as money, but on pretend play or free roll isnt enjoyable because people dont play properly because its not real and i get rivered even more!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Bruise. IF you wanted to give up you would have deleted all of the sites, closed all of your accounts etc... So, assuming that you want to lose less money (obviously win more too) there are several things you could (and really should) do. I've managed to build up decent bankroll for absolutely nothing - in fact I've only ever spent £20-30 of my own money on poker. The rest is the result of winning freerolls and value tournaments. Just by using 'other peoples money' I've managed to subsidise my Christmas spending, buy a new PC AND still have a bankroll that is sufficient for my needs. It is not big, and having gone through a lean spell I'm down to about $500. Credit/Debit Cards Stop using them to fund your poker. Get yourself an e-wallet and either fund it with a fixed amount of money that is make or break (for arguments sake say £50). Obviously the idea is that you use this money to make more and build a bankroll. The point is it provides a clear distinction between your poker cash and your other money. It also stops you making impulse deposits when you fancy a 'quick' game. This in my opinion is VITAL to you winning more. Change The Games You Play You should not under any circumstances use your money to play no limit cash games. Use the example bankroll to play STT's at the lower levels (up to $5 tables), and value MTT's, such as last nights spin palace $2000 added, and the PL league games which pay out extra prizes. You could play cash games that don't risk all of your bank roll, such as 5 card draw limit (useful for raking hands), or fixed limit hold em(as boring as it seems after no limit, it does have a strategy worth learning). It is imperative that you change your playing habits at least until your poker bankroll is healthier. Once it is you can go back to playing cash games if you feel a need to, but if you are a tight aggressive player I think you'd have more success playing STT's, although; thanks for the advice guys, have the problem that I do play for enjoyment as well as money, but on pretend play or free roll isnt enjoyable because people dont play properly because its not real and i get rivered even more!! Example: just played on a table, got given AKsuited(hearts), player acting UTG raised about 10 times BB so called, everyone folded, out comes AcAs6d. At this point he goes all in, so I have to call given my hand (as only way he dominates is with A6, or 66), he turns over 5d Jd (ie nothing), turn brings 2d, river brings 8d and he beats me with a flushThis in my experience happens at almost every level. The point is if it happens in an STT, the most you lose is your buy in, not your whole bakroll. Good luck with what you decide, but believe me freerolls are worth the hassle, cos then you get to play with the poker sites money, and not your own.:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Actually just thinking rereading that' date=' about the bills part, don't mean it to sound like I can't pay mortgage. The bills I've been referring to are "social bills" like having to say no to going out cos deposited money on account, that kind of thing[/quote'] IMO that is bad enough... The poker money shouldn't at all intervene with any part of your life... only the winnings though :ok ... you need to play for (deposit) exactly the amount of money you can afford to lose without it getting in the way of your life in general... goes for the social life aswell... Play even lower stakes until your game changes... Won't say till your luck changes, because it has to do with your game...not luck... Play well :ok :) Had to edit after reading Mister V's post... Agree completely... Play stt's or valuable mtt's... Cash tables are murder if you are having a bad poker streak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laidbackbloke Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Bruise Basically the problem is that you are playing well above your bankroll ...................... if i remember right its recommended that you should have at least 20 X the max buy-in as you can encounter dramatic swings of fortunes in poker and can have long losing streaks. I don't like losing money (not many people do) but if you can't afford to absorb the impact of the losses when you hit a bad run (and still have a big enough bankroll to carry on without causing you problems) then its not a good idea to play at that level. Actually being £150 down isn't that hard to do if you hit a bad run at that level. Personally I keep my gambling funds completely separate from my personal finances. so that any wins of losses i have have no effect on my day to day living (though i occasionally get a nice boost when i cash out) I'd agree with Valiant that it would be a good idea to stop playing the cash tables for the time being and to play some STT's instead. you get a good game and you have a limited ammount that you can lose ................. You can have a good game on the $5 STT's, Once your bankroll increases step up to $10 STT's and the maybe go back to cash games later on. Its how i built up a bankroll before i switched to playing cash games :ok Good luck :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Second the above, this is just a bankroll problem. If you only play stakes such that you can cover the MAX buy-in (100x BB) on the tables you're playing 20x then you have enough to cover the swings if you're a winning player. If you lose that amount then you're probably not a winning player, but that doesn't mean you can't become one. So, having lost £150 on those stakes doesn't say much, it could easily happen if you were playing winning poker - I'd suggest moving down in stakes and maintaining a bankroll such that you can absorb those swings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie-p Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... everything valient 23 said!!! play stt's and enjoy the game...ur are asking for trouble playing cash and not having a massive bankroll to fall back on. remember stt's:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masterplan Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... cash games have always been my downfall in terms of wiping out all my hard earnied winnings in one fell swoop. i remember just last week after making a healthy $300 profit over the weekend, thinking ti'd be fun to *kill some time* taking it onto a $3/$6 table, and lost it all in about 5 hands(some guy flopped a flush and slow played while i bet into my top 2 pair, that hurt). going back to stt's again now to build my bankroll back up. if you find yourself losing money needlessly you might be able to get some software that tracks your progress for you and can give you some advice on your own play, if you cant see it yourself. http://www.thepokerbay.org/ has some good books and free stuff listed there that you might be interested in (thanks gaffer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... Bruise - Agree with most of the comments fielded here so far. The bottom line - if you are losing more than you are comfortable losing then you have to change something. With poker - there are so many freebies, that you have no need at all to risk more than you are comfortable with - in fact there is no need to risk your own money at all. One think I would disagree with - people talk of bankroll being the problem - remember - the vast majority of internet players are losing players - they play for enjoyment and accept the financial cost for the enjoyment they derive. For these players, bankroll doesn't come into it - it will always be a cost. You HAVE to make sure you get your game right and only then can bankroll management make a difference. If your game isn't right and you are losing in general, then you will lose any bankroll. Playing Cash Games at £0.15/£0.25 as a beginner and having not "proven" yourself elsewhere is a mistake. I have been playing for almost a year now, with quite a degree of success (I feel!!), but I am only really comfortable playing cash games at $0.05/$0.10 - I make a decent profit there (about $1,000 so far this year!!) and should probably step up a level and see what happens - but I've "earnt" the right to do that as I have proven myself at this level over a considerable period of time - and I view that as key for beginners - start at the bottom - prove (to yourself) that you can "beat" the game at a level - then move up to the next level - if you don't "beat" it - move back down to where you do beat it - continue building your bankroll and retry in a month or so - when you have learnt new things and hold more experience. You should NOT be starting out in cash games - you have to "beat" tournaments first. Tournaments can be Freerolls, or STT's at somewhere like BlueSq from 10c per game!!! Would strongly urge you to read this post by Mr V - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21979 and this post by me - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showpost.php?p=274308&postcount=4 Don't give up - you CAN beat it - but play at the levels you KNOW you can beat!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... ... The poker money shouldn't at all intervene with any part of your life... :ok Pene, tell us exactly how many pokerless days in the last month for yourself please!!!! :dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pistonbroke Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 Re: some advice please... only joking seriously keep at the cheapo stuff i thought i could play but im still only at the $1 Stt stage and having fun at the level im playing and its paying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Pene' date=' tell us exactly how many pokerless days in the last month for yourself please!!!! :dude[/quote'] Maybe one... but isn't that irrelevant?? ... I wrote that the poker MONEY shouldn't intervene with your day to day life... And yes, I play a lot of poker, why else would I be in this forum??? ... but poker does not interfere with my life other than the time spent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgin Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Bruise, if you're playing with money you can't afford to loose then quit for a while. Wait till you have some spare cash and get back into it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... One think I would disagree with - people talk of bankroll being the problem - remember - the vast majority of internet players are losing players - they play for enjoyment and accept the financial cost for the enjoyment they derive. For these players, bankroll doesn't come into it - it will always be a cost. You HAVE to make sure you get your game right and only then can bankroll management make a difference. If your game isn't right and you are losing in general, then you will lose any bankroll. I think I'd disagree with the statement that you're disagreeing. :) OK, if you're playing for fun and don't mind losing a bit even in the long term to pay for your entertainment (and there's nothing wrong with that), then you probably don't think in terms of a bankroll. But you should think about how much you're prepared to lose and what kind of tables you can afford to play at to avoid random fluctuations causing financial embarassment, which is really the same thing as bankroll management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... I see what you're saying slap, and you are of course right - the point I was trying to get across was that Bankroll management cannot turn a losing player into a winning player......and MOST internet players are losing players. It worries me a little that the winning option on the Poll is " No, your luck will change" as that is saying "just keep playing as you are and hope that luck will bail you out" - that IMO is the wrong approach. Most losing internet players are in self-denial - they don't acknowledge that they are losing. They complain of "bad luck" or "bad beats" and refuse to look at themselves. I'm not saying Bruise is a losing player (and after just a few months, there would be no shame in that) - I simply don't know - however he shouldn't hide from the possibility (and we shouldn't encourage him to do so) - yes it is possible for people to lose in the short term due to normal distribution and fluctuations (and indeed it WILL happen to everyone) - however it is dangerous to hide behind that as an "excuse" for losing consistently - at some point you need to look at it and say "no, I've been losing for too long - I no longer believe it is down to normal fluctuations and I need to revise the way I am playing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Play even lower stakes until your game changes... Won't say till your luck changes, because it has to do with your game...not luck... I completely agree with GaF(which means he is right this time ;) ) ... and had to quote one of my earlier posts in this thread...:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... I see what you're saying slap' date=' and you are of course right - the point I was trying to get across was that Bankroll management cannot turn a losing player into a winning player......and MOST internet players are losing players. [/quote'] I certainly agree with that. In poker just as in any form of gambling, if you make negative expectation bets then you'll lose in the long run, and no staking plan or bankroll management will change that. But money/bankroll management is important, maybe more so if you have the potential to be a winning punter/player. Bad money management can change a winning player into a losing player, even if the opposite is not true. You just have to read about the lives of some of the best poker players ever: many of them were wonderful poker players, but just godawful gamblers. Agreed again. But we weren't given the correct option in the poll (which is why I haven't voted), which is "if you enjoy playing poker and have the self-discipline, carry on playing, but play for stakes that you don't mind losing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... I'm in agreement here that no amount of bankroll or bankroll management will stop you busting if you're not a winning player, I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise. But I don't think it's the vast majority of internet players that are losers, most guesses I've heard are around about 60/40. Remember that everytime someone loses someone else wins - I just don't think it's some tiny percentage of sharks that are taking everyone elses money, I think you can make money at those stakes just by exercising basic discipline. The OP may or may not be a winning player, I don't know - but a £150 loss at those kind of stakes is nowhere near big enough to say he isn't, it's a small swing relative to the game he's in. I don't think anyone was suggesting 'keep playing and luck will bail you out' - more like, if you have decent reason to think you're a good player in the first place, don't assume you were wrong based on that kind of loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gazza271 Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Interesting points regarding bankroll, can i add my twopenny worth ? I started about a year ago and i after learning the game i think i payed £10 into 4 or 5 different accounts, so about $100. Since then i have not made one single deposit from my bank accounts and if i'm totally honest i am only an AVERAGE player (there's plenty of people on here who frequently win decent amounts). How i have done this is how has been suggested, Play the low limit cash games to get the bonus's and then a mix of cash games and STT's and freerolls. My bankroll is not to impressive, I have about $600 in my neteller acount and on SO, Blue Sq and Betfair i have about $150 in each. Plus it paid for an XboX360 and bits which came to about £400. I had a really bad slump a while ago where i lost a big portion of my bankroll so moved back down a level onto the $3 STT's and have been building it up since then to what it is now. Any account i have that gets low then i move down a level where i know i can frequently win. In my mind I'm doing ok, I have the sites money to play poker with ! The day i start having to pump my own money in at the expense of bills (thats not a go at the OP) will be the day i stop playing poker. I applaud you guys who win big frequently and hope it continues, From my point I will never be one of the consistant big winners BUT I'm not playing with my own money and I'm having FUN. PL has opened a whole new aspect of poker for me and i love reading the well informed,knowledgable posts and learning from them. Had a beer or two and probably slightly off track and i think this is probably my longest ever post !!!!!!!! Think i just wanted to say that if I can build up a bankroll being an avereage player then everyone can. Take money from the muppets,play the freerolls,take the site bonus's but above all USE OTHER PEOPLES MONEY and make sure you have FUN :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Sorry Gazza, I totally disagree.... This was your longest post, starting this thread. :D Which isn't too far in sentiment from this topic imo. We're not criticising you personally, and I think people saw the word BILLS and may have missed how you qualified that term. I'd suggest 'disposable income' if that is right - you do pay your bills, but sometimes blow whats left on the cash tables, instead of going out for a meal (is that right?). Whatever you decide Bruise, you know we'll try and help whenever you ask.:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... I thought I'd add my experiences to this thread. I have always been a STT player mainly, and have done pretty well, generally making a little money - but really enjoying them. Nothing better than the heads-up moment at the end when you know you've got the opponent beat. For the last four or five weeks I have decided to turn my attentions to limit cash poker. My experience has been horrible. I have done a lot of reading, and though experienced at no limit - my lack of experience at limit has left me really frustrated. I honestly don't think I have the right mentality for limit cash poker - the bad beats (and there are a lot more) frustrate me too much - and I have real trouble putting down hands that in no-limit I can get people out of the hand with. In one session recently I was beaten by J8 OFF and 46 OFF (neither in the blinds) after putting in a raise with AA on both occasions - and both cost me a lot - and for the only time in my poker life I wanted to throw the laptop out of the window - and yep I went on tilt. My pre-flop play was probably OK - but post flop is where I lost my money - and I have admitted to myself that I am not good enough for the game (or do not have the right mentality). So back to the holy land of the STT for me (decision made today after another losing session). I did think about going down to very small levels limit cash games - but I don't have the patience for that. So after all that, what I am trying to say is that you should think about your mentality, and if it's right for limit poker. Can you cope with long losing runs, and the many bad beats, and do you have the patience to claw the losses back gradually - if the answer is yes - go for it - and best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruise Pristene Posted May 14, 2006 Author Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... ok guys, thanks for all the input. This is what I have done so far: 1) closed down all poker accounts apart from BF so I can keep proper track of things (well havent closed them yet, but gonna) 2) put a £30 per month deposit limit on my account 3) deposited £30 into the account 4) added up total losses, I'm officially £210 down with the £30 I've put in now 5) left cash games behind, playing lowest STT on BF, the $1+20c decided this £30 is it, and gonna look for freerolls to boost it up I just realise i didn't say in the original post that I did win some money, and a few tourneys just lost so much it wiped it all out anyway record so far in this new phase is played 4 at $1.20 each, won one with a prize of $5 so bang on level lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruise Pristene Posted May 14, 2006 Author Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... actually that makes me $0.20 up, maybe my poor maths is why I'm losing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... actually that makes me $0.20 up' date=' maybe my poor maths is why I'm losing![/quote'] Maybe you're not losing, but your poor maths makes you think you are! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run Dmc Vs Pat Nevin Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Bruise, I don't wanna add to your woes, but the 20% buy-in fee for those STT's at Betfair is seriously gonna hinder your chances of turning a profit. Never play a STT that charges you more than 10%. Try VC or Blue Square - 10% buy in fees for STT starting at $0.10. Loads of really bad players too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Re: some advice please... Bruise' date=' I don't wanna add to your woes, but the 20% buy-in fee for those STT's at Betfair is seriously gonna hinder your chances of turning a profit. Never play a STT that charges you more than 10%. Try VC or Blue Square - 10% buy in fees for STT starting at $0.10. Loads of really bad players too.[/quote']Plus Blue Suare give the compensation of the bubble freeroll, which Gaf one last month ($320 for 10c 'entry'). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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