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Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Sir Puntalot

By Sir Puntalot
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Sir Puntalot

Sir Puntalot

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Ok, me and kev qualified for the $200 seat on PNL last night and Kev in particular got some harsh criticism. Kev was big chip leader (45k) by about 22k and they were criticising him for raising with AJ, saying he shouldn't get involved as there 10 to qualify and only 11 left. They even went as far as to say he should fold AA which is hilarious. Complete nonsense and unjustified criticism. :ok Now to me. I was 30k and in 2nd, BB and I get raised by a guy 3 to my right with 11k, I have K9. Now the table was ridiculously tight at this stage and any raise was folding everyone. I put him on a small/middle pair because surely he should be all in otherwise? So I re-raised him, he called and I flopped top pair with K kicker. He goes all in, and I call because I can afford to. It just so happens he had KK, but I hit a lucky straight, that's poker. :lol My points here are these: 1. I could afford to see him all in and didn't want him stealing my blinds as he was low anyway. 2. I'm aggressive enough to know I would have qualified anyway if I had lost the 11k, the table was so tight I would have qualified for certain imo. 3. 11 players left, guy who raises has barely over 10 x BB, why is he trying to play poker when I outstack him 3/1. I feel the worst decision came from the guy raising, he should have been all in. I knew I could afford to lose the chips at the end of the day and he couldn't.

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GaF

GaF

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive Sorry Paul - intended entirely constructively, but I disagree with you (and think the commentary on PNL was correct). If Kev had been dealt AA then KK and played and lost both, then he could have been out or under severe pressure. If he played nothing, then there was no risk at all of failing to qualify - IMO the correct play was to fold ANYTHING including AA, but especially the marginal hands. Why risk your $200 seat (even on AA) when there is no need?

1. I could afford to see him all in and didn't want him stealing my blinds as he was low anyway.
Could you afford it? You have to assume he could win his whole stack off of you - assuming the worst how many chips would you have left? And would this have left pressure on you? Why don't you want him stealing your blinds? You have enough chips for X circuits - your blinds are insignificant in the grand scheme of things - why risk putting yourself under pressure protecting blinds you didn't need?
2. I'm aggressive enough to know I would have qualified anyway if I had lost the 11k, the table was so tight I would have qualified for certain imo.
How many chips would your aggressive play have left you had you come up against AA in two consecutive hands?
3. 11 players left, guy who raises has barely over 10 x BB, why is he trying to play poker when I outstack him 3/1. I feel the worst decision came from the guy raising, he should have been all in. I knew I could afford to lose the chips at the end of the day and he couldn't.
Agreed - he needed to be all in or fold
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Valiant23

Valiant23

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Ok, me and kev qualified for the $200 seat on PNL last night and Kev in particular got some harsh criticism. Kev was big chip leader (45k) by about 22k and they were criticising him for raising with AJ, saying he shouldn't get involved as there 10 to qualify and only 11 left. They even went as far as to say he should fold AA which is hilarious. Complete nonsense and unjustified criticism. :ok Was the prize the same for first as it was for 10th? If it was then they are right (according to established thinking), if it wasn't I have to say I agree with you and that Kev should have played it in exactly the same way as he would have at any other time. Gaf? says that as the game gets tighter on the bubble, it is a good time to get looser and more aggressive (not that I'm prepared to pay that way), that is the way that the pro players say you should play. Perhaps they need reminded that they're going against the considered advice of Doyle Brunson, Dan Harrington (:@ :eyes), and any other poker author. FWIW with 11 left I'd be more likely to soft-play at that point and try to catch some-one out - again totally 'wrong', but a tactic that has served me well. Now to me. I was 30k and in 2nd, BB and I get raised by a guy 3 to my right with 11k, I have K9. Now the table was ridiculously tight at this stage and any raise was folding everyone. I put him on a small/middle pair because surely he should be all in otherwise? So I re-raised him, he called and I flopped top pair with K kicker. He goes all in, and I call because I can afford to. It just so happens he had KK, but I hit a lucky straight, that's poker. :lol My points here are these: 1. I could afford to see him all in and didn't want him stealing my blinds as he was low anyway. 2. I'm aggressive enough to know I would have qualified anyway if I had lost the 11k, the table was so tight I would have qualified for certain imo. 3. 11 players left, guy who raises has barely over 10 x BB, why is he trying to play poker when I outstack him 3/1. I feel the worst decision came from the guy raising, he should have been all in. I knew I could afford to lose the chips at the end of the day and he couldn't.Er........well. I'd love to agree with PNL and pick your play to shreds, but I think you have summed up the situation perfectly. Ok, you were lucky to catch a straight against KK, but even so had I been in his position I'd have been all-in. In your position, you have to consider taking the opportunites to knock some one out, especially as you have him covered.
Go on Paul, kick their asses!:ok
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Sir Puntalot

Sir Puntalot

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive I respect your opinion GaF, but with regards to Kev I definitely cannot agree, but poker isn't textbook that's why we all love it. ;) Regarding me.....

Could you afford it? You have to assume he could win his whole stack off of you - assuming the worst how many chips would you have left? And would this have left pressure on you? Why don't you want him stealing your blinds? You have enough chips for X circuits - your blinds are insignificant in the grand scheme of things - why risk putting yourself under pressure protecting blinds you didn't need?
Yes I definitely could afford it, even if I lost the hand in an all in, I would have still been 5th and well clear of 11th. This may sound arrogant, but I didn't feel hardly any pressure because I knew they were all playing tight as fcuk and I'll always push if I see that. Maybe I was being too aggressive, but I saw it as him trying to steal and I was having none of it.
How many chips would your aggressive play have left you had you come up against AA in two consecutive hands?
Come on GaF, that's about as likely as George Bush being the next President of Iraq. ;)
Agreed - he needed to be all in or fold
Holy shit, we agree! :rollin
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Sir Puntalot

Sir Puntalot

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive Sorry V, but I cannot, absolutely cannot agree with soft playing even at that stage with regards to Kev. None of those shortstacks wanted to get involved with his juggernaut of a stack and he proved it, they folded. Regarding me, I'm not textbook and refuse to be. If I think someone's stealing and I have a half decent hand and a bigger stack than them, they better be prepared to rumble. :loon

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georgej

georgej

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive Just heckle away ;) I think Kev was right to sy he had a good hand by raising. If anyone wanted to steal they couldn't without a fight. I have seen a few times where those sitting on the sidelines find their advantage eaten away to a level where they dicide they need to play to stay in the game. Paul - Even against a largestack I personally would not have gone allin with KK - nerves would get the better of me. 2/3 times BB would be my bet with KK at that stage. After the flop i would be allin too... bugger :(

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Valiant23

Valiant23

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive I didn't realise the only prize on offer were seats into the next round (10th gets the same as first(?). In that case I gotta say that they (and Gaf?) are absolutely right. There is absolutely no reason to play. The game at that point is for all of those players who were in danger of bubbling. For you two, the war was over, and you won. :ok Good luck in the next round btw. ;)

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GaF

GaF

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Yes I definitely could afford it' date=' even if I lost the hand in an all in, I would have still been 5th and well clear of 11th. This may sound arrogant, but I didn't feel hardly any pressure because I knew they were all playing tight as fcuk and I'll always push if I see that.[/quote'] So if playing and losing left you still in a strong position, what benefit did you get through playing? Qualifying with 1 chip is EQUAL to qualifying with 1,000,000 chips...... Yes Mr V - top 10 places all received an identical prize.......
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Sir Puntalot

Sir Puntalot

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

So if playing and losing left you still in a strong position, what benefit did you get through playing?
Knocking him out and qualifying there and then, I also wanted to win the whole thing to be honest, probably because it was on tv and people did play right down to the end, unfortunately it wasn't shown to the end. :lol
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Valiant23

Valiant23

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Knocking him out and qualifying there and then' date=' I also wanted to win the whole thing to be honest, probably because it was on tv and people did play right down to the end, unfortunately it wasn't shown to the end. :lol[/quote'] After your 'performance' on ATR you're STILL craving fame? :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
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GaF

GaF

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Knocking him out and qualifying there and then' date=' I also wanted to win the whole thing to be honest, probably because it was on tv and people did play right down to the end, unfortunately it wasn't shown to the end. :lol[/quote'] Ah ........ i get it - You played out of Vanity :lol ;) Now I understand :P but that doesn't make the PNL presenters wrong ;)
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jamiebhoy

jamiebhoy

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive GAF is spot on as usual. Survival is key. Betting when you don't need to is not a good move. The blinds would gobble up the tight ar$es anyway :tongue2 Let them squabble over your pennies if you have lots of pounds. My only move here would have been towards the fridge :D As for playing to win - Surely in this case 10th is winning? (1st=10th=winning??) Well done qualifying BTW :ok

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kevshat

kevshat

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive My take on it is this, I'm pretty new to MTT's. I've only been playing them for 6 months or so and while I've won 2 or 3 in that time I have a distinct lack of experience towards the end of tourneys and as pokerose can testify I've been having some bad luck towards the end of tourneys recently that has dented my confidence. So I thought I'd take it seriously and try to win. By nature, I'm a competitive person anyway and want to win everything I attempt but to me here was a chance to get some much needed practice in the latter stages of a tournament. There was absolutely no chance of me ever not qualifying, as Paul said I had almost twice as many chips as 2nd place and 4 or 5 times more than matey in 10th place. I could have taken an all in from my opponent, lost it and still been no worse than 4th or 5th. Obviously I'm not stupid and if I'd have lost a big pot I wouldn't have gone in for another, in fact when a guy went all in before it was my turn I folded AQ, A10 and QQ, all hands in a normal tourney I would have considered calling with and probably gone on to call with. However on the hand in question, the two guys to act after me were the shortest 2 stacks on my table, nobody had gone all in or raised before me so I just stole their chips. Given the situation of the game they were unlikely to risk their chips to take on the big stack when they could sit tight and qualify but like I said I could cover losing to their all in comfortably and still qualify. But if I had a hand that could guarantee qualification there and then, and in AJ I think I did have that then I'm obviously going to try and take my chance relatively risk free. I guess I can see the PNL commentators and GaF's point, I could have folded everything, I could have turned my computer off and said thank you and goodnight but there was as much chance of me injuring Wayne Rooney as he's about to board the plane to Germany and then replacing him in the World Cup squad myself as there was of me ever not qualifying and with my competitive nature, it's not my style to just call it a day.

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GaF

GaF

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive Fair enough Kev :ok Paul and yourself have both come back with the reasons you played as you did - and you play poker for fun and your "competitive spirits" are why you played it - for you both, there was a higher value (non financial) on finishing 1st rather than 10th and that is why you played as you did. What neither of you are claiming is that you played in that way to maximise your ev or to maximise your prize winnings (i.e. 10th place) - and that is fair enough. BUT I think the PNL presenters were correct to point out that what you were doing was not the best purely Poker, purely "financial" way of playing the closing stages........ I know and accept that either way, you were all but there - HOWEVER strange things DO happen in poker and your strategy DID increase the risk (albeit marginally) of you failing to qualify.........

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moFace

moFace

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive ive learned the hard way before short stacked holding AA on the bubble, couldve folded and still qualified but couldnt lay it down.. lost to trip ks or something, someone who was disconn qualified instead!!! tbh still dont know if i can put it down if it happened again even though i know i should

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CJB

CJB

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive I'm Surprised noone else has picked up on this yet - but if you had K9 and after the flop had top pair top kicker how did you get a straight to win? Runner runner runner?

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kevshat

kevshat

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Fair enough Kev :ok Paul and yourself have both come back with the reasons you played as you did - and you play poker for fun and your "competitive spirits" are why you played it - for you both, there was a higher value (non financial) on finishing 1st rather than 10th and that is why you played as you did. What neither of you are claiming is that you played in that way to maximise your ev or to maximise your prize winnings (i.e. 10th place) - and that is fair enough. BUT I think the PNL presenters were correct to point out that what you were doing was not the best purely Poker, purely "financial" way of playing the closing stages........ I know and accept that either way, you were all but there - HOWEVER strange things DO happen in poker and your strategy DID increase the risk (albeit marginally) of you failing to qualify.........
All's well that ends well eh mate! :ok
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GaF

GaF

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive

Nah I aint having that GaF' date=' you back down now or you're banned! :rollin[/quote'] Thank fcuk for that - cheers Paul :ok Been nice knowing you all...... I get my life back :loon :P
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guesswest

guesswest

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Re: Criticism about me & Kev on PokerNightLive Have to second (or third, fourth) GaF's point here. Should be folding AA in a heartbeat in that situation, should be folding it if you know you're up against 27. Risk may be small but it's still 'some risk' vs 'zero risk'. There is no such thing as 10th and 1st in that tournament, it's just a mistake of language, there's just joint 1st which 10 people will share. Edit: Not saying Paul and Kev aren't fine players mind. And point is well taken if Kev's stack was so large it was just a bit of harmless fun pushing the table round. But it's never a better 'strategy' than sitting on your hands.

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