Where's my profit gone?

[egg]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Rio, As a relative newcomer to this forum I can honestly say that the first thread I look out for is your racing diary. I stumbled across when having a mooch around the forum about a week after joining and I find it throughly enjoyable reading, so much so that I read it from page 1 all the way through! I'm sure i'm not alone in saying keep up the good work and don't feel that you need to justify yourself to other forum members. :ok

First thread I look at too, always a great read and I feel written with honesty(and emotion). I myself can't bet without emotion and feel it's part of it, without emotion I don't think I'd bet at all. Fair play to anyone that doesn't.

[The Saint]

Machine - with regards to your 'value' argument.... This is an old cliche but indulge me. If you were offered 6/4 on Heads and 4/6 Tails, you'd presumably bet on heads because you'd recognise both outcomes are even money and 6/4 offers value. I appreciate we are talking about horses but you must concede there is some approach in the 'value' method?

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Machine - with regards to your 'value' argument.... This is an old cliche but indulge me. If you were offered 6/4 on Heads and 4/6 Tails, you'd presumably bet on heads because you'd recognise both outcomes are even money and 6/4 offers value. I appreciate we are talking about horses but you must concede there is some approach in the 'value' method?

2 total different things 1 is fixed ratio where as the other is variable Under the fixed ratio (tossing a fair coin I might add) a blind man on a galloping horse could see that the 6/4 is the one to chose Where as in a horse race with multiple outcomes in a 1 off event never to be repeated EVER it would always be better to pick the horse with the best statistical chance of victory

[The Saint]

Re: Where's my profit gone? Prime example of why the game is harder now than ever - with my methods anyway. 220 Haydock tomorrow - Gran Maestro - won an apprentice hcap last time out - should have won the time before having been blocked all the way up the straight at Newcastle. Same mark tomorrow. I wanted 3/1. Coral go 3/1 - literally 2 minutes later, they go 5/2. I ask for £50 regardless. Offered £10 - rest at 2/1. Now the powers that be will tell me to stop whinging and win, lose or draw tomorrow, if that happens (and it does happen with about 95% of bets I'd like then that's one hell of a difference to the bottom line. 3/1 to 2/1 is over 8% of the book and whilst they won't all win, some of them will! 1 in 2 and a half probably!!! :wall I believe that the edge I once held has quite posibly gone becasue of Bookmaker limits and the fact that more and more people are trying to make the game pay on a FT basis - hence why methodology has to change :( Where I would have been laying off in the run at 1.60 if I take the bet on at 9/4 I'll be laying off at 1.45 - constantly putting myself under more pressure.

[The Saint]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

2 total different things 1 is fixed ratio where as the other is variable Under the fixed ratio (tossing a fair coin I might add) a blind man on a galloping horse could see that the 6/4 is the one to chose Where as in a horse race with multiple outcomes in a 1 off event never to be repeated EVER it would always be better to pick the horse with the best statistical chance of victory

Well it's variable to an extent isn't it? I mean obviously I am just trying to continue a debate as opposed to starting an argument but Frankel would beat Kauto Star over a mile 100 times out of 100 so even 1/20 would be value in this instance. I DO think you stats guys hold some advatages over the so called 'value' seekers. The post above highlights the problems we are up against for one and the emotional detatchment must be easier to achieve. I've always been an arogant pup and guess over the long term think I can price up a race better and more accurately than the Bookmakers. It's proven in fact! Trouble is, I can't exploit it anymore because they don't take a bet at decent prices and the value(or my perception of it) dissappears in literally minutes and I don't have the accounts or the time to exploit the mistakes I can see as plain as day! ** Possibly what I should be doing, in light of the above, is monitoring the market moves on the horse up to the off and acting accordingly. Only way I can see of getting an edge back and getting a bet on at the sufficient stake. But what do you do if and when it's ducked under the price you wanted?!

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

I believe that the edge I once held has quite posibly gone becasue of Bookmaker limits and the fact that more and more people are trying to make the game pay on a FT basis - hence why methodology has to change :( Where I would have been laying off in the run at 1.60 if I take the bet on at 9/4 I'll be laying off at 1.45 - constantly putting myself under more pressure.

May I ask how you got restricted was it through arbing or trying to get too much on that rung alarm bells. I remember the first internet book I got barred from Luvbet.com :lol Did me a favour paid up my account then about 6 month later went bump and there were a few stories of punters not getting their dosh back which was a bit naughty. Putting yourself under pressure imo is not good

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Only way I can see of getting an edge back and getting a bet on at the sufficient stake. But what do you do if and when it's ducked under the price you wanted?!

Before I answer that can I just ask you,how many times (rough average %) have you picked a single horse not backed it because the price is lower than your tissue and the horse has then romped home, just a rough estimate 5% 10% 15% whatever

[BillyHills]

Re: Where's my profit gone? Saint, can i ask a question; There are many factors in the process of selecting a bet as you are well aware and we all have different ideas on which is the most important, for me the ground is a big factor in any form i read, obviously for you its the value price. Because of you 'need' to get value by the very nature you probably also need to bet early and like your example above, 24 hours before the race. Now one of my big gripes with the Racing industry at the minute is the false descriptions of the ground that we get, my point is how can you back a horse so far in advance when by race time the conditions could be totally different and unsuitable? Today i put one up in the BBOTD (this morning as i couldnt get online later and wanted to take part in the comp) it was good to firm and the racing post reporter said it was drizzling but will stop a lunch time. In my reasoning is stated the horse must have good ground, (pulled up on Gs/Sft last time). Anyway turned the TV on at 3pm and find its Soft going so no bet and the horse - guess what - pulled up, after being well backed as well! So do you take the going into consideration? if the ground changes do you lay it off, or does the value become elsewhere? I would sooner miss a point or two and have a solid bet than knowing i'm beat before the start.

[The Saint]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Before I answer that can I just ask you' date='how many times (rough average %) have you picked a single horse not backed it because the price is lower than your tissue and the horse has then romped home, just a rough estimate 5% 10% 15% whatever[/quote'] Of the bets I leave due to not being able to get the price I want that have subseqently won....? It's honestly a guesstimate - 15% (based on average BSP - I think I take your next point! With regards to being shut down - I think that Bookmakers have to protect themselves as there is no doubt there are plenty of arbers out there and if you tend to beat BSP you are chucked in with them. I don't know what basis your stats are based on but if it involves favourite stats then I guess it's easier to sneak under the radar as many a mug punter will ironically be betting on the same horse! A further point to the stats backer! There are ways forward I am working on and continuing to pursue. Laying is on the increase and as far as I can acertain, there is still value to be had at the highest level of racing - and dare I say - less corruption. I don't want to get into the pitfalls of account closure on here again though - it's been done to death. Nothing can or will be done about it - am just pointing out a reason why the 'value' approach may be suffering.

[The Saint]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Saint, can i ask a question; There are many factors in the process of selecting a bet as you are well aware and we all have different ideas on which is the most important, for me the ground is a big factor in any form i read, obviously for you its the value price. Because of you 'need' to get value by the very nature you probably also need to bet early and like your example above, 24 hours before the race. Now one of my big gripes with the Racing industry at the minute is the false descriptions of the ground that we get, my point is how can you back a horse so far in advance when by race time the conditions could be totally different and unsuitable? Today i put one up in the BBOTD (this morning as i couldnt get online later and wanted to take part in the comp) it was good to firm and the racing post reporter said it was drizzling but will stop a lunch time. In my reasoning is stated the horse must have good ground, (pulled up on Gs/Sft last time). Anyway turned the TV on at 3pm and find its Soft going so no bet and the horse - guess what - pulled up, after being well backed as well! So do you take the going into consideration? if the ground changes do you lay it off, or does the value become elsewhere? I would sooner miss a point or two and have a solid bet than knowing i'm beat before the start.

At the 24 hours before the race or whatever it might be, I am not really considering potential ground changes. I will lay the bet off if I believe the ground has gone against my selection come the off and whilst I am sure this means that often 'value' is created elsewhere, I won't often try to find it due to all the changing variables because of the ground change - eg. potential pace, non-runners. Added to which, I will have studied the race on the forecast ground and usually have a short list of 1 - to a maximum of 3 that I think are capable of winning the race. I think I should possibly extend this to 5 in order to back more long shots and have more bets. I like any selection to be within a couple of lengths of the most likely winner on my ratings. As disscussed earlier, given the difficulty of getting on, I think different approaches need to be adapted and they are being worked on as I type! Concentrating on Group class racing, market moves within the last 5 minutes of betting and laying on the whole are all areas I'm looking to expand in in order to stop the rot as such. Whether I'm good for this game in 1, 5 or 10 years time, I do not know but I do know that you have to keep evolving and adapting to an ever changing playing field in order to stay in front. Unless you are solely a Stats Man, so I am told ;)

[Kithanga]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

6/4 = 40% chance of success 8/1 = 11% chance of success I know which one Id prefer the most money on ;) Yes stats only,the only thing I know or need to know about horses is one end eats grass Im in the same camp as yourself,If someone asked me why I backed horse x in a 8-14 runner open age h/caps, Id reply If its in the first 5 of the betting (win approx 70% of races),first 5 of the weights(win approx 40% of the time),odds less than number of runners (win 75% of the time) and its the only contender its my bet regardless, as the selection is statistically the one from each group which win the most races,If you ask a value punter how they came about theres its all smoke & mirrors and all that malarkey, I think Aidy said it in the Hcp thread you can find value in every race but if it doesnt win it doesnt matter. If they want to play at being Pricewise its no skin off my nose good luck to them.

Now you've really confused me! Can you clarify? Point 1, I'm assuming you'd go for the 6-4 chance as it has more chance of winning. But surely the only reason to have more money on any price band is if you know the ROI will be bigger. Its chance of success only serves to reduce the effect of variance, doesn't it? If anything there mistakes on price should be bigger at the higher odds shouldn't they (20% margin at evens = 4-6 true odds, 20% margin at 50-1 = 41-1 ish true odds) so it's surely more likely you'll find 50's or maybe 66's on a 40's chance than get 4-6 on a true evens chance. Or am I talking cr4p? :lol Is it better to take account of both the odds (variance) and the likely margin and as per you example have something like 35 on at 6-4 and 12.5 at 8-1? Point 2, I know it's only a quick example but wouldn't you have to know the win percentage of horses that were in the first 5 in betting & first 5 in weights and odds less than no of runners? Winners that help to make the stats in one category may be outside one or both of the other two.....I think!

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

No I stake for a fixed return (some call it dutching same thing) No for a 30 stake as above 18.75 on the 2/1 and 11.25 on the 4/1 Either returns 56.25 But yes for fixed return your example is correct ( sorry I was thinking you meant if I had 2 selections in a race) . 6/4 = 40% chance of success 8/1 = 11% chance of success I know which one Id prefer the most money on ;)

Surely this is just variance. If the 6/4 chance wins as often as it should, and the 8/1 chance wins as much as it should, if you had the same amount on each one repeatedly it would just work out the same in the long run. I can only really look at it from a value point of view, as a form reader/value punter I instantly think is it a true 8/1 shot, is it a true 6/4 shot etc, which to you, obviously means f*ck all. And from a statistical point of view, that makes perfect sense, cos there is no sense of value.

Yes stats only,the only thing I know or need to know about horses is one end eats grass Im in the same camp as yourself,If someone asked me why I backed horse x in a 8-14 runner open age h/caps, Id reply If its in the first 5 of the betting (win approx 70% of races),first 5 of the weights(win approx 40% of the time),odds less than number of runners (win 75% of the time) and its the only contender its my bet regardless, as the selection is statistically the one from each group which win the most races,If you ask a value punter how they came about theres its all smoke & mirrors and all that malarkey, I think Aidy said it in the Hcp thread you can find value in every race but if it doesnt win it doesnt matter. If they want to play at being Pricewise its no skin off my nose good luck to them.

Are these your only criteria for making a bet? I dont know if I'm thinking about this all wrong, but surely the bigger the odds are, the more you should have on? Cos say one of your bets meets your criteria and it's a 6/4 shot, then in another race it meets exactly the same criteria but is a 4/1 shot. It's meeting the same criteria for what horses statistically win the most, but is a much bigger price. You must be able to work out the profitability of your stats from the past 5 years or whatever, if you looked at every race ran in the UK? What would the ROI be on that? Would hardly say it's all smoke and mirrors, I can see advantages of both forms of punting and think both can be equally profitable. Veitch, Freemantle, Nelson etc are some of the best judges ever who've all been greatly profitable from a value point of view.

[DC]

Re: Where's my profit gone? Machine - do you ever back more than one selection in a handicap race (dependent on price) Also how often do your selection/s drift out of the top 5 in the betting - are you ready to back a horse if one of the top 4 or 5 in the weights (previously outside your price criteria) suddenly steam in and therefore becomes a selection? The statistics sound good in principle however to operate using such a strategy I guess there must be a fair amount of market watching in order to succeed?

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone? Ill answer Q2 first with a very basic example using just the weight and odds filter for this type of race. Stats selected Lingfield 9.00 3yo only Hcp 9 runners only First 5 in the weights %age circled 65% win rate First 5 in the betting SR circled 72% win rate add above to GG's create your create your tissue from the %ages and TA-DA a basic model No doubt someone will check out the %ages on the spreadsheet trying to catch me out :lol as yo can see the spreadsheets sorted in order now lets have a look to see which qualify for a bet from all 3 disciplines Naaz .... yes Pressroom ....yes Aint got a scooby ..eliminated sp Twary ...eliminated odds magique.. eliminated odds Big thunder... eliminated weight Al Enbess... eliminated weight Muskat Link.. eliminated weight Mick Duggan... eliminated weight Leaving you with 2 qualifiers @ 6/4 & 6/1 100pts dutched = 73.68 on @ 2.5 & 26.32 on @ 7 Ta-Da pressroom wins = 184.20 returned a mere 84.20% P.O.T no smoke no mirrors no b,,sht but then again what do I know (one end of a horse eats grass,dont need to know any more) As for Q 1 I dont really think you need me to answer that do you ;)

[south_eastern_ram]

Re: Where's my profit gone? That's also a good point Danny. Machine, you mention the price changes on people who make tissues and back accordingly. The top 5 in the betting changes regularly and is also different with different firms.

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Machine - do you ever back more than one selection in a handicap race (dependent on price) Also how often do your selection/s drift out of the top 5 in the betting - are you ready to back a horse if one of the top 4 or 5 in the weights (previously outside your price criteria) suddenly steam in and therefore becomes a selection? The statistics sound good in principle however to operate using such a strategy I guess there must be a fair amount of market watching in order to succeed?

Sorry Danny was putting post 74 together , having a few probs getting formatting right now wont print to notepad grrr so have to do screenshots. To answer you Q yes I do if the qualifiers can be dutched to make a profit (within a pre set margin of course) Never watch the market the prices are scraped automatically as and when I want to back. I dont care about price the tissue i do is mainly just for sorting into order, through past betting the prog knows itself after selections which fall into the betting catagory as it also has a list of past betting stats to compare against. I just put the money on no questions asked

[Kithanga]

Re: Where's my profit gone? Thx Machine, I understand where you're coming from now, but yes I'm still confused on Q1. I wasn't being trappy, just find this aspect the most difficult to get right / consistent in my betting. Or were you saying I was on the right track ? Re Q2, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I still feel the logic is flawed unless you have a stat that shows win % of horses that qualify for all three then the stats are meaningless (happy to be corrected though).

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Thx Machine' date=' I understand where you're coming from now, but yes I'm still confused on Q1. I wasn't being trappy, just find this aspect the most difficult to get right / consistent in my betting. Or were you saying I was on the right track ?[/quote'] Your betting is for you to decide,I only plant the seed,Im not here to nurture the tree.

[Kithanga]

Ok. Point taken. It seems we differ in that I am gaining my satisfaction from the challenge whereas you're in it for the return if I've understood correctly. Tbh I wouldn't use your approach / software even if it was available to me despite it obviously delivering the goods. For me it'd be a little like solving a crossword puzzle by flicking through the thesaurus. Sent from my GT-I9300 using PL Forum

[The Saint]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Prime example of why the game is harder now than ever - with my methods anyway. 220 Haydock tomorrow - Gran Maestro - won an apprentice hcap last time out - should have won the time before having been blocked all the way up the straight at Newcastle. Same mark tomorrow. I wanted 3/1. Coral go 3/1 - literally 2 minutes later, they go 5/2. I ask for £50 regardless. Offered £10 - rest at 2/1. Now the powers that be will tell me to stop whinging and win, lose or draw tomorrow, if that happens (and it does happen with about 95% of bets I'd like then that's one hell of a difference to the bottom line. 3/1 to 2/1 is over 8% of the book and whilst they won't all win, some of them will! 1 in 2 and a half probably!!! :wall I believe that the edge I once held has quite posibly gone becasue of Bookmaker limits and the fact that more and more people are trying to make the game pay on a FT basis - hence why methodology has to change :( Where I would have been laying off in the run at 1.60 if I take the bet on at 9/4 I'll be laying off at 1.45 - constantly putting myself under more pressure.

In-Running Low of 1.59 - Point proven with a sample of 1!!! :lol

[Aidymac]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Rio just because its not in your make up to bet like that do not think it is not possible, I have been betting like that since 95' and do not have pointy ears or green blood, but what I do have is a discipline to win and the mentality and funds to make it work which is obviously what you dont have. I now know why I rarely get involved in discussions on horseracing after comments like that :eyes Still laughing at the "its not a working mans price" on another thread. (not by rio ) So a 40% Roi is not good enough so you would leave it in the bank and get .005% interest while inflation is 2.75% ... classic

Don't you do lucky 15's? Classic Mugs bet? I would love to see these profits you are ranting about, because you have never produced them on here. A very unfair and very harsh message posted towards a highly regarded member. I have met Rio, he is a down to earth, genuine, disciplined punter, and I know he is very selective about his bets, and his profits over the years (which have all been posted on PL, he doesn't just SAY he makes a few quid). I think there is a difference between you and Rio too by the way. When I met him, and you can also gather it from his threads, he adores horse racing. In my opinion, he would pay a lot of money without returns just to go watch racing all around the UK, his love of horse racing surpasses his will to make a few quid, but if a few quid comes his way, so be it. There aren't enough people here like Rio in my opinion. Spiteful, arrogant, giving it the large are in the plenty though. I wouldn't dream of claiming I was making big profits without backing it up first. P.S. I also can't see what Rio said that got you so wound up.

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Don't you do lucky 15's? Classic Mugs bet? I would love to see these profits you are ranting about, because you have never produced them on here. A very unfair and very harsh message posted towards a highly regarded member. I have met Rio, he is a down to earth, genuine, disciplined punter, and I know he is very selective about his bets, and his profits over the years (which have all been posted on PL, he doesn't just SAY he makes a few quid). I think there is a difference between you and Rio too by the way. When I met him, and you can also gather it from his threads, he adores horse racing. In my opinion, he would pay a lot of money without returns just to go watch racing all around the UK, his love of horse racing surpasses his will to make a few quid, but if a few quid comes his way, so be it. There aren't enough people here like Rio in my opinion. Spiteful, arrogant, giving it the large are in the plenty though. I wouldn't dream of claiming I was making big profits without backing it up first. P.S. I also can't see what Rio said that got you so wound up.

Who rattled your cage :rollin Didums horsey click ganging up :rollin:rollin Even an idiot can see what I meant or maybe in future I should write everything down like Im talking to the 4 year old they act like Yes I do do lucky 15's so what its called joining in, I also enter the competitions as well so what And who the fcuk are you to question me anyway, a fcukin nobody with a shiny mod badge :lol . Do you put it on with a tassled waistcoat and chaps and play forum sheriff :lol

[The Saint]

Re: Where's my profit gone? 'CLIQUE'!!!! :p They'll be :spankall round in a minute! Stats men and Value men - it's like puttin cats and dogs in a room together!! :sad

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

'CLIQUE'!!!! :p They'll be :spankall round in a minute! Stats men and Value men - it's like puttin cats and dogs in a room together!! :sad

No doubt :lol It'll be on sky news next :rollin

[DC]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Sorry Danny was putting post 74 together , having a few probs getting formatting right now wont print to notepad grrr so have to do screenshots. To answer you Q yes I do if the qualifiers can be dutched to make a profit (within a pre set margin of course) Never watch the market the prices are scraped automatically as and when I want to back. I dont care about price the tissue i do is mainly just for sorting into order, through past betting the prog knows itself after selections which fall into the betting catagory as it also has a list of past betting stats to compare against. I just put the money on no questions asked

Well if this is working for you fair enough I'm not going to argue however you may be missing out. If you're putting your bets on minutes before the off to catch those that form part of the first 5 in the betting then great however some of those in the top 5 might have started out the day twice the price so in your case you've risked more money for the same return should the steamer go on to win. On the other hand if you're sniffing out the best prices in the morning at 10-11am when all the firms are open for business then the opposite could happen in that you end up on a drifter that doesn't fit your model. Works in theory but now and again you're going to miss out or back something in error. Might be swings and roundabouts and as you seem confident in your approach possibly negligable. You might be interested in my summer sprinters system which is purely based on stats and numbers and %'s.

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Well if this is working for you fair enough I'm not going to argue however you may be missing out. If you're putting your bets on minutes before the off to catch those that form part of the first 5 in the betting then great however some of those in the top 5 might have started out the day twice the price so in your case you've risked more money for the same return should the steamer go on to win. On the other hand if you're sniffing out the best prices in the morning at 10-11am when all the firms are open for business then the opposite could happen in that you end up on a drifter that doesn't fit your model. Works in theory but now and again you're going to miss out or back something in error. Might be swings and roundabouts and as you seem confident in your approach possibly negligable. You might be interested in my summer sprinters system which is purely based on stats and numbers and %'s.

To be totally honest Ive tried it 3 ways (ooh err) RP forecast is never too far away from actual sp but any withdraw gg's knackers up the selection process due to RP now changing their forecast during the day to counter this. losing out on potential bets. But I do use this method if I know I wont be working @ home that day so put them in triggered betting on my BF bot. Early prices same as above really with the smart money all coming in the last 3-4 mins its again a lottery. Thats why I prefer to back the selections myself then I know that Im definitely within the ranges set, some days its saved me a lot others days cost me hell of a lot , but thats the nature of the beast. I have to be confident in the program its taken me near on 3 years to get this far and theres a shedload of work to be done yet. To be fair though I have spent more time on my Draws program, hopefully it will be fully automated before next season :eyes (fat chance) and run unaided on a server Im setting up from an old computer.(another 1/2 finished project) I would be very interested Danny, fair play to you, I find sprints a nightmare you can get all the stats bang on then the bleeder stumbles coming out through trying to break to fast and crash bang wallop game shot,dosh done.

[BillyHills]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

I find sprints a nightmare you can get all the stats bang on then the bleeder stumbles coming out through trying to break to fast and crash bang wallop game shot,dosh done.

Be careful, that could be looked upon as emotion surrounding a horse race.

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Be careful' date=' that could be looked upon as emotion surrounding a horse race.[/quote'] Nah BH I make the Borg look like father christmas ;) Spock signing off

[DC]

Re: Where's my profit gone? Tonight's 8:50 Haydock race is a good example of the point I'm trying to illustrate Machine - remember I'm not trying to pick holes just throw up examples of how following purely stats are good in theory however can be difficult to operate in practise. The eventual winner Rusty Rocket was 5th weighted (perhaps your stats would've picked this anyway as 15 in the race originally) however 14-1 this morning so not on your short list. Two non-runners later and the horse is now third in the weights and backed into 6-1 before the race so third in the betting - now a qualifier, or at least on the short list? Had you put the bets on this morning you'd have missed the winner, assuming it still fit your other criteria, but ground and draw were also positives. Waiting till nearer the off and you'd almost certainly have made a profit.

[Machine]

Re: Where's my profit gone?

Waiting till nearer the off and you'd almost certainly have made a profit.

Yep I know what you mean ;) If you wondering why 5.10 stake I play month to month at the begining of the month £100 starting bank target win is 10 per bet as it increases ie 200 in bank 20 win per bet 300 in bank 30 win per bet...ad infinitum You never get it spot on due to changing odds and quick calculation of the stake in my head (im not exactly Arthur Benjamin) Then at the end of the month withdraw whats in and start again. :ok