I want horses to run their best every time.

[erhaab1965]

Whenever punters back a horse they want their horse to put in maximum effort each time. We would all be happier if we believed that to be the case even if we didn't get a return. One aspect of horseracing which annoys me is when horses aren't run on merit.I pointed out a few days ago a horse called True to Form a multiple winning horse for Sir M Prescott when transfered to G Baker he campaigned it over the wrong trip with A Culhane aboard till it reached a favorable handicap mark when the money was down and it does the business. Another trainer who likes to use A Culhane is D Flood who in the past had his training liscence revoked for administering banned substances to his horses.He employs similar tactics. Take his horse Dazakhee , all his win are at 1m yet straight after a win the horse is upped to 1m 4f to bring his handicap rating back down. Today there is a horse in the 250 Yarmouth called Petrol owned and trained by L Cumani.As we all know K Fallon is the stable jockey and he is in contention for the jockey championship.His two rivals are present at Yarmouth as well as Fallon himself.Yet T Hussain (7lb) is booked to ride. It is my belief that the trainer does not want the horse to put in a good performance.Putting Fallon aboard would mean the horse may finish in a superior position than expected.His dam is Pongee who for those who recall started off over inadequate trips as a 2YO before ending up as a group performer over middle distances.Cumani also owned Pongee too , so I expect to see another two poor performances over the wrong conditions before a spate of wins next year. This tactic is widely employed by trainers who include Prescott , Dunlop and Akehurst year after year. I know the onus is on punters when they put their money on but there will be a few punters up and down the country who will have a quid or two on with absoloutely no chance of getting a return. I may be wrong and have totally misread the situation.What do you think?

[Aidymac]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Whenever punters back a horse they want their horse to put in maximum effort each time. We would all be happier if we believed that to be the case even if we didn't get a return. One aspect of horseracing which annoys me is when horses aren't run on merit.I pointed out a few days ago a horse called True to Form a multiple winning horse for Sir M Prescott when transfered to G Baker he campaigned it over the wrong trip with A Culhane aboard till it reached a favorable handicap mark when the money was down and it does the business. Another trainer who likes to use A Culhane is D Flood who in the past had his training liscence revoked for administering banned substances to his horses.He employs similar tactics. Take his horse Dazakhee , all his win are at 1m yet straight after a win the horse is upped to 1m 4f to bring his handicap rating back down. Today there is a horse in the 250 Yarmouth called Petrol owned and trained by L Cumani.As we all know K Fallon is the stable jockey and he is in contention for the jockey championship.His two rivals are present at Yarmouth as well as Fallon himself.Yet T Hussain (7lb) is booked to ride. It is my belief that the trainer does not want the horse to put in a good performance.Putting Fallon aboard would mean the horse may finish in a superior position than expected.His dam is Pongee who for those who recall started off over inadequate trips as a 2YO before ending up as a group performer over middle distances.Cumani also owned Pongee too , so I expect to see another two poor performances over the wrong conditions before a spate of wins next year. This tactic is widely employed by trainers who include Prescott , Dunlop and Akehurst year after year. I know the onus is on punters when they put their money on but there will be a few punters up and down the country who will have a quid or two on with absoloutely no chance of getting a return. I may be wrong and have totally misread the situation.What do you think?

You put yourself in trainers boots!!! Would you want your horse to run to its maximum potential every time and have a high handicap mark and finish midfield every time or would you like to get your horse onto a nice mark so that you and the owner who pays you to train the horse can get a nice payday from it? You just pointed out that you as a punter can see when a tactic like that is going to deployed so why are you complaining about it if you know its going to happen, as you can back it? I know that if i was a horse trainer, i would want to make as much money as i could possibly make. Afterall it is a business, and in business its every man for himself

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Put yourself in punters boots. If you put a hefty bet on a short priced D Flood or B Ellison horse. You still need to know if the connections are having a bet. If their money isn't down then your money is likely to be wasted because the jockey is going to do his best not to win.Thats why jockeys like A Culhane are favoured by certain trainers. The rule that jockeys need to get the best possible placing is a farce. How can that be properly policed. Are you happy that some runners are not going to try ?

[Aidymac]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Put yourself in punters boots. If you put a hefty bet on a short priced D Flood or B Ellison horse. You still need to know if the connections are having a bet. If their money isn't down then your money is likely to be wasted because the jockey is going to do his best not to win.Thats why jockeys like A Culhane are favoured by certain trainers. The rule that jockeys need to get the best possible placing is a farce. How can that be properly policed. Are you happy that some runners are not going to try ?

But if you know what Flood and Ellison are like, why would you put a hefty bet on their horses? That is the risk you take isn't it? Im sure trainers and owners dont give a cahoot about punters, and why should they? Again it is a business It cant be policed, it is impossible for the authorities to "assume" a horse was not trying without proof, thats why the trainers run the horses over inadequate trips or just make sure the horse does not get a proper run, or wait til its too late to make its move.. It doesnt bother me that some runners arent going to try as its a CERTAINTY that it happens in nearly every race. Put your money down and take your chance, if you aint happy with it you should revert to darts and start backing Phil the Power Taylor, he tries every time!

[wwweeerrr]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

You put yourself in trainers boots!!! Would you want your horse to run to its maximum potential every time and have a high handicap mark and finish midfield every time or would you like to get your horse onto a nice mark so that you and the owner who pays you to train the horse can get a nice payday from it? You just pointed out that you as a punter can see when a tactic like that is going to deployed so why are you complaining about it if you know its going to happen, as you can back it? I know that if i was a horse trainer, i would want to make as much money as i could possibly make. Afterall it is a business, and in business its every man for himself

Surely the point here is that the rules of racing state that every horse should run on it's merit. If Jockeys break the rules they get punished and so should trainers! Of course we seasoned punters know that all horses do not run on their merits and all handicaps are potential races for trainers to "cheat". How Prescott gets away with it is bewildering to say the least as he runs his 2 year olds three times over the wrong trip and when they come out as 3 year olds running over a suitable trip, he plunders low grade handicap marks. where he is hailed as a "genius" but there is nothing genius about it as he is breaking the rules, well bending them I suppose, but nothing is ever done about it. Therefore as a punter if you are going to bet in Handicaps at least bet in ones where the prize money is worth going for and keep away from the dross of class 5/6 like today, or don't bet in Handicaps and confine your bets to Listed and Grp races where at least all the runners are trying. Even then "form" doesn't necessarily stack up. It's a tough game making a profit in the long term.

[TheBoyRooney]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. as we all know horses don't always try.yes it can be painful at times when your horse seems to be tipping around at the back with no intention of getting into the race but as aidy says above you pays your money you take your chances.I know a few owners and the horses they own are just average or slightly above average horses.They don't run them to their merits because they want the handicap mark to go down and price to go up so that when they do go for it they have have the payday to pay for training the horse.Whether it's right or wrong is another matter.

[Aidymac]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Surely the point here is that the rules of racing state that every horse should run on it's merit. If Jockeys break the rules they get punished and so should trainers! Of course we seasoned punters know that all horses do not run on their merits and all handicaps are potential races for trainers to "cheat". How Prescott gets away with it is bewildering to say the least as he runs his 2 year olds three times over the wrong trip and when they come out as 3 year olds running over a suitable trip, he plunders low grade handicap marks. where he is hailed as a "genius" but there is nothing genius about it as he is breaking the rules, well bending them I suppose, but nothing is ever done about it. Therefore as a punter if you are going to bet in Handicaps at least bet in ones where the prize money is worth going for and keep away from the dross of class 5/6 like today, or don't bet in Handicaps and confine your bets to Listed and Grp races where at least all the runners are trying. Even then "form" doesn't necessarily stack up. It's a tough game making a profit in the long term.

I agree with Erhaab's point. It is cheating and i dont know how they get away with it, but they do unfortunately. Punters just have to accept these factors when punting. How Barney Curley gets away with it is astonishing but i admire him :lol

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Totally agree with everything you say Weeeeeer. I have bigger bets in Listed/Gr races where the form may be more accurate but not 100%.During the week i have smaller bets and try to avoid races like handicaps.

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. If they pull Cumani up for his horse Petrol what would the reason be for using a 7lb apprentice as opposed to Fallon who is trying to be champion jockey.

[Trotter]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Obviously it's a huge grey area Let's take a staying type horse who runs 3 times over sprint trips to get a mark Who's to say that the horse isn't running on it's merits over those sprint trips ? The fact that it gets beat 15 lengths just goes to show it's merit over sprint trips, ie it's not very good The 'run to it's merit' rule does not include a caveat that trainers have to run horses over particular trips or at specific tracks........... I don't really have a problem with trainers running their horses over the wrong trip as long as the horse runs the best it can at that trip I reckon that's a different scenario to 'not running horses on their merit'

[Aidymac]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

If they pull Cumani up for his horse Petrol what would the reason be for using a 7lb apprentice as opposed to Fallon who is trying to be champion jockey.

"We are giving this apprentice jockey some necessary experience".. ? :\ Trainers can put whatever jockey they like on their horses, you have no argument there.

[Trotter]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

If they pull Cumani up for his horse Petrol what would the reason be for using a 7lb apprentice as opposed to Fallon who is trying to be champion jockey.

Couldn't they just say something like..........."we're going to run this horse on its merits but realistically it has no chance over a sprint trip, so we're giving 'the boy' a ride for experience".

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

I don't really have a problem with trainers running their horses over the wrong trip as long as the horse runs the best it can at that trip

You make a good point Trotter , but none of us on here are niave enough to expect horses to run their best over inadequate trips. With Petrol today I presume the horse will not be fully fit and insuffiently trained with an unexperienced jockey on board.If it was another industry would that not be called fraud ?

[Trotter]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

You make a good point Trotter , but none of us on here are niave enough to expect horses to run their best over inadequate trips.

That's not quite what i said though I said i have no problem with horses running their best 'at that trip', ie they're trying as hard as they can or running on their merits It's one of the factors you take into account when studying a race - is the horse likely to be suited by this trip ? The Diomed comment in the Post for Petrol - 'bred to be suited by a lot further' - This happens at the very top level as well. eg i discounted Nathaniel from the Champion stakes because i thought 10 furlongs on good ground would be far too sharp for it and it wouldn't be suited by the trip Did nathaniel run on it's merits ?.............I'd say 'Yes' because he ran as well as he could over that trip on that day

[TheRat]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Well there are claims of non triers in the new Timeform Chasers and Hurdlers book - we all know stuff like this goes on I don't see the problem with schooling in public as long as we know well in advance. It is unlikely this will happen in big races where there are ante post markets up - no just tell everyone the horse won't knocked about prior to the race

[wwweeerrr]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. I think the answer to this lively debate should be that at the side of each runners name on the race card should be either N:O which means NOT OFF or T:T TRYING TODAY. I have also thought for many years that each horse should be "weighed" as it enters the parade ring ( Just walks over a weigh bridge thing?) so we can see if it is anywhere near it's racing weight or not. Of course this will never happen as this is another weapon in the armoury of the Trainer. He is the only one who knows if it is fit or not and like AIDYMAC has said it is his business after all.:)

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Public schooling is prohibited, many trainers have been fined and horses banned for 40 days. A recent example is Sir M Prescott's Secret Liason , jockey was given a long ban too.

[TheRat]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. I'm aware it is not allowed, but happens. Why not allow it as long as the trainer states at the 48 hour dec stage though and the comments free to view? "This horse will be ridden hands and heels" as an example

[Haystacks]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

If you put a hefty bet on a short priced D Flood or B Ellison horse. You still need to know if the connections are having a bet. If their money isn't down then your money is likely to be wasted because the jockey is going to do his best not to win.

Well then, something must have gone wrong with (your example of) D. Flood's Dazakhee, who won at 20-1 over a mile last month! Don't think the connections were on that day for it to go off at that kind of price. Also, in fairness to Brian Ellison back in August he was telling the whole world and his oyster on 'The Morning Line' in incredibly bullish terms that both his runners in the Ebor had really outstanding claims, and of course Moyenne Corniche won at 25-1 (not that I listened to him of course!). I do take on board your general point, but as the saying goes 'handicaps are an invitation to larceny'. For t hose that can't stomach that fact then there are always conditions/Listed/Group races.

[Trotter]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Petrol at 33/1......... It ain't 'arf gonna F*** Up our thread if it wins.............:loon

[Trotter]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. phew...........no danger of it winning......... missed break, strolled along at the back of the field

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Well then, something must have gone wrong with (your example of) D. Flood's Dazakhee, who won at 20-1 over a mile last month! Don't think the connections were on that day for it to go off at that kind of price. Also, in fairness to Brian Ellison back in August he was telling the whole world and his oyster on 'The Morning Line' in incredibly bullish terms that both his runners in the Ebor had really outstanding claims, and of course Moyenne Corniche won at 25-1 (not that I listened to him of course!). I do take on board your general point, but as the saying goes 'handicaps are an invitation to larceny'. For t hose that can't stomach that fact then there are always conditions/Listed/Group races.

Who knows whether connections had a bet or not , but an SP of 20/1 doesn't neccessarily mean it wasnt gambled on.It all depends on how much you want to win.They don't all have to go from 33/1 to 7/4 fav. You can back it small in numerous accounts at 20/1 and win a decent packet. I used Flood , Baker and Ellison as examples as you can never be confident when backing their horses even if the form strongly suggests it due to win.

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Petrol at 33/1......... It ain't 'arf gonna F*** Up our thread if it wins.............:loon

Phew , Talib Hussain rode to instructions , saved me from embaressment.

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

I used Flood , Baker and Ellison as examples as you can never be confident when backing their horses even if the form strongly suggests it due to win.

Just now in the 320 Yarmouth G Baker had the odds on fav woth Fallon on board. Although it was a seller the horse was clear on all ratings but ran like a donkey.It just reinforces my view on backing G Baker horses.

[Aidymac]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Who knows whether connections had a bet or not , but an SP of 20/1 doesn't neccessarily mean it wasnt gambled on.It all depends on how much you want to win.They don't all have to go from 33/1 to 7/4 fav. You can back it small in numerous accounts at 20/1 and win a decent packet. I used Flood , Baker and Ellison as examples as you can never be confident when backing their horses even if the form strongly suggests it due to win.

It wasnt gambled on! And at a big price like that it would only take a single bet of 100 quid to drive the price down

[Aidymac]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

Just now in the 320 Yarmouth G Baker had the odds on fav woth Fallon on board. Although it was a seller the horse was clear on all ratings but ran like a donkey.It just reinforces my view on backing G Baker horses.

It wasnt odds-on! And it was a muck seller.

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

It wasnt gambled on! And at a big price like that it would only take a single bet of 100 quid to drive the price down

Are you sure ? I've had bigger bets at bigger prices and not made a dent in the market.£100 is a drop in the ocean unless you do most of your betting with BET365 where £1.87 is probably the most they'll lay you at 20/1.

[erhaab1965]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time.

It wasnt odds-on! And it was a muck seller.

Don't know what the SP was but it was 5/6 this morning with L'brokes.

[wwweeerrr]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Never mind wanting horses to run to their best. I just had a hefty wallop on GO NANI GO and J Fahy was strolling at the back of the field but couldn't get a clear run (What does he expect in a 5f sprint at Lingfield) Flew at the death and just got beaten. I got 13.5 and it was backed in to 8.0 so even when they are trying other things can conspire against you. Fortunately I backed the day's good thing at Yarmouth ALJAMAAHEER and was lucky enough to get 13/8.

[BillyHills]

Re: I want horses to run their best every time. Interesting that Cumani had the second in Petrol's race at 100/1, again ridden by a young claimer, maybe he got a right bollocking for not finishing out the back with his stable mate?? My point is that just because the number 1 jockey isnt used it doesnt mean they are not trying, how many second strings have we seen win this season, the most i can remember. Its impossible to work out so i just ignore it most of the time and if i'm not happy i avoid the race and stick it in the memory bank for another time:ok