Folding AA

[CJB]

I am a new player of about 6 months experience and was interested to know if any of you have ever folded AA and in what circumstances. I only play tournaments and last night had AA four times and had a record of Won 1 Lost 2 and Split pot 1. The first Time I know i played it badly (not bad luck) as it was early on in the tournament and after a small raise i made a big raise after a flop of Jh,2h,5c only to be called by one player. the turn came 3h and i could not stop myself going all in (even said to myself what the heck as i clicked the button) only to be called by an A4 Mindful of this the next game I played was a MTT and again early in the game I just small raised and had only one caller. The flop was 662 and the caller went all in. At this stage he had over 3000 chips to my 1900 so a call would have knocked me out but this guy had been all in at least four times in the previous few hands and theonly time we saw his cards he had flopped top pair of 9s only to be called with 2 queens. He got lucky and made his set that time. However I was wary of the board but felt he had overbet the pot and would have played differently if he had a 6 or 22 so called him. He had 55. Later on in the tournament when the blinds were 300 I was on BB and with three limpers I went all in only to be called by KQ os. He got his two pair. In another game 10$ STT on Ladbrokes my all in aa was called by A8. The flop was 679 the turn 10 and I was so resigned to my fate i failed to notice the river was an 8. By this stage I was thinking I was fortunate only to be called by a shorter stack than me and promptly went all in with an os AQ in the next hand only to realise that i had bet a larger amount than I thought. I had to scroll back to realise what had happened and then sweated but fortunately everyone else folded. So I am interested to know If people have ever folded AA and how hard is it to do. When you get dealt AA do you get all excited and think Double through time or has experience taught you otherwise.

[DC]

Re: Folding AA It's true when you get dealt AA, you get a nice feelin that you probably win whatever goes down in the middle. Of course at the end of the day all you are holding is a pair. The flop may show 6 8 8, and obviously anyone holding another 8 at this point is beating you. Personally I never go all-in with AA unless I'm shortstack or playing one on one. The flop holds the key. I've held AA, and been beaten with QQ, 99 and even 72. I agree it's a very hard hand to fold, but, as in your first example, you must make double-sure you're not betting against a str8 or flush. Good luck Danny

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: Folding AA In short - "No" I would never fold AA pre flop as it is the best hand you can be dealt. No matter how big the raise is from another player you have to be in front unless they have AA as well. The odds are stacked in your favour so playing the hand / calling another persons raise will always (statistically) be the correct play.

[mr onemore]

Re: Folding AA

In short - "No" I would never fold AA pre flop as it is the best hand you can be dealt. No matter how big the raise is from another player you have to be in front unless they have AA as well. The odds are stacked in your favour so playing the hand / calling another persons raise will always (statistically) be the correct play.

Surely there are plenty of situations in a tournament when folding AA is actually the right play, even pre-flop. If someone in front puts a big raise in , you might rapidly find yourself in an all-in situation, and even if slight (odds are not 'stacked' in ones favour yet...) favourite for the pot you are actually risking your whole tournament 'blind'. Strong players say they regularly outplay weaker ones after the flop - typically, it's weak players who will continue with AA after a bad flop, they just can't let them go. A strong player who will want to stay in a large tournament will not automatically play AA behind a big raise, all sorts of factors need to be considered - IMO.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: Folding AA

Surely there are plenty of situations in a tournament when folding AA is actually the right play, even pre-flop. If someone in front puts a big raise in , you might rapidly find yourself in an all-in situation, and even if slight (odds are not 'stacked' in ones favour yet...) favourite for the pot you are actually risking your whole tournament 'blind'.

I simply don't agree with you mate. I don't care how far in I am in a tourney. Calling a big raise that puts me all in with AA pre flop is ok with me. I will win the hand more than I lose it giving me a real chance of winning the whole tourney rather than limping into the final and taking a minor placing. Also I believe top players don't think in the way you have outlined above. They disregard how far into a tourney they are. Calling a big raise, pre flop with AA is the right play and I believe any pro would play this way.

typically, it's weak players who will continue with AA after a bad flop, they just can't let them go

I totally agree with that second quote though.

[Jezza]

Re: Folding AA Will post a proper reply to this later....buried in playing online for the next couple of hours..... Jez

[mr onemore]

Re: Folding AA

. I will win the hand more than I lose it giving me a real chance of winning the whole tourney rather than limping into the final and taking a minor placing.

Winning the hand more than you lose it is not the same question as winning/losing the tournament. Agreed, you win the hand more often - but when you consider stack sizes, tournament stage, big raise in front etc I'd say there will be situations where folding AA will be the percentage play to win the tournament.

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: Folding AA

I'd say there will be situations where folding AA will be the percentage play to win the tournament.

I'm a decent player but no expert I admit. However I just can't understand this argument. You have to be ahead no matter what (pre flop) so the percentages are in your favour. It's like any successful betting strategy - if you spot VALUE you have to take the bet. I'll bow to the superior knowledge of others if I see an enlightening counter argument though. :(

[mr onemore]

Re: Folding AA With you on the 'see value - must take it idea' - but that assumes infinite bets. In the long run here you'll come out on top. Trouble is, a big tourney for example, where they don't come around infinitely. Suppose you were in a really big tourney, knew also you were a strong player - good chance of winning - why risk it all just against a weaker because you have a small edge on one hand - when you know that in the long run (finite!) for the tourney, you can generally outplay weaker players post-flop. You don't have to risk getting into all all-in against a weaker player with just a small edge. Just my ideas - I'm no strong player at all,

[GETT1NLOTS]

Re: Folding AA I see what you're saying Mr Onemore but I would still call the raise. If I'm not going to call the weaker player with AA when am I going to catch him? (I guess your answer here is after the flop and outplay him - but weak players call with rags in the hope for their 50-1 shot coming in anyway). Maybe some players would fold AA but I think that is a sign of a tight + weak player and I find those the easiest to beat (no offence - this is poker talk, not personal :lol ) Furthermore I still find it hard to believe that any pro would fold AA pre flop. Jez - get your arse in here! You're not a mod for your personality. :lol :lol

[Jezza]

Re: Folding AA :lol I will be here soon gett1n, in a real live game at the mo tho (check the playing now thread) and will be here when it finishes Jez

[Jezza]

Re: Folding AA AA in NL hold em can be the stuff of dreams or indeed (and often it might seem) it can cost you your whole stack. If you learn to play it well (and against it well) and judge each situation correctly it can be a big plus to your results. If you have raised preflop with AA and been called you have to be able to judge where you are well. To be honest if I call a raise from someone and they have a deep stack of chips/money infront of them I would like them to have AA as my implied odds are so huge (most people cannot lay down AA very easily and as such that deep stack of money could well become mine if I flop a good hand). So in turn if you are the one holding the pocket rockets you have to be a little wary. A real bad flop would be something like KKx QQx or JJx. Basically any card in the playing zone doubled up for the board spells danger. If the action is multiway then I am certainly going to check that flop first man to speak. I am not about to put any serious money in the pot from there on in at all. I might call a small bet at the end but I am NOT about to get into a raising war with someone. The slightest hint of decent action and then I am folding. Heads up I would make a token bet at it on the flop but if the other guy calls then I am shutting down. Similarly the flop KQJ is horrible - even if noone has the straight then the chances of someone having 2 pair are high - just ditch your aces without anyone being the wiser. The flops you want are Kxx Qxx etc. A card (the king) that someone will make top pair with to give you action to your overpair which is winning. Beware of co-ordinated flops like 567s as if noone already has the flush/straight then someone certainly at least has the draw. Having two to a flush on the board is good however. You will get action from the draws and make sure to charge them pot sized bets for the privelige of seeing the next card ;) Again tho, DONT pay them off if they make their draws. Basically if you get serious action with your aces and there is no obvious draw on the board it is quite likely someone has flopped two pair or a set against you so you have to decide whether or not to go through with your rockets judging on the player. A very tight player giving you serious action is a definate fold in these cases. However if someone else put in some action preflop then you could well be against another lower overpair - get your chips in here for sure (you will probably be able to tell when this is the case). I would never advocate getting into a raising war with just a pair of aces once the whole board is out, if you are unsure then you must call but JUST call - dont fall into a raising war as the times you are beat you will lose the lot. As for the argument to if there is ever a time to fold AA preflop well I can say 99.9999999% of the times it is wrong to do this, bigstyle. It is certainly true that in a cash game you should ALWAYS be putting your money in when you are ahead - even a 50.2% chance of winning headsup you should be sticking all your money in there. This leads to of course never EVER folding AA preflop in a cash game. Indeed if you can then getting all your money in preflop is the absolute dream, against as many players as you can. Of course this is not going to happen very often but it does present itself from time to time :dude . You might lose, but it's gambling and you would be getting pretty unlucky as you are a massive favourite over any other cards preflop. Of course your chances diminish against multiple opponents, but your rewards for winning go up and you are always the most likely to win the pot. Lets take a look at the % chance AA has against various hands preflop AA vs KK (or just about any other underpair, the values change ever so slightly but it is near enough the same) - 81% to 19% (a great spot) AA vs AK (a common one to end up all in preflop, especially in tournaments) - 93% to 7% - this is a TREMENDOUS spot to be in and infact just about one of the best in the whole of NL hold em it is a dream come true if you get it. AA vs J10s (other suited connectors will be similar although slightly different) - 78% to 22% (another good spot) As you can see we are pretty much a gigantic favourite over any two cards preflop. There is an argument above about if it might be correct to fold AA preflop in a tournament and wait for a better spot for your chips. Now the thinking behind this is good. Plenty of high stake professionals fold hands where they are the favourite (although marginal) in tournaments all the time for this very reason. If you lose in a cash game its no bother, you can just reach back into your pocket and buy back in again but if you lose in a tournament then thats it....you are gone no second chances. An example might be if you have a flush draw and are being paid slightly more than 2/1 on it to go all in and hit. Yes you have the value and would win a few chips in the long run by calling but whats the point? You will be out the tournament 2 in 3 times by calling and can certainly wait for a better spot for your chips - so do it. Also in the early stages of a tournament with low blinds you CERTAINLY dont want to be coinflipping AK v JJ all in preflop, a pro will fold either of these hands in a big tourney in a flash in the early stages. Indeed I have to say if I was playing in the WSOP during the first round (10,000 chips and 25/50 blinds) and someone just went AI in front of me preflop and I looked down in the big blind to see KK I would fold. However AA presents an absolute massive advantage preflop. You will NOT get anywhere near such good odds for a long time if you have the chance to get it all in preflop with pocket rockets and as such it cannot be folded. You are a huge favourite and 1st hand of the WSOP Main event I would call AI with AA preflop in a F L A S H (as would any pro!) so I would have to agree with GETT1N on that one. As I would also call on the bubble with a short stack in the same situation. The only time I can think of I would fold AA preflop is if I was playing in a satellite game. For example 3 places get put through to the main event and there are 4 people left, you are a middle stack. Everyone goes all in preflop and you look down in the big blind to see AA. I would fold here - you have nothing to gain and everything to lose, the prize does not change for 1st place over 3rd and you are going to get through probably after this hand so just muck em. Jez

[mr onemore]

Re: Folding AA

Lets take a look at the % chance AA has against various hands preflop AA vs KK (or just about any other underpair, the values change ever so slightly but it is near enough the same) - 81% to 19% (a great spot) AA vs AK (a common one to end up all in preflop, especially in tournaments) - 93% to 7% - this is a TREMENDOUS spot to be in and infact just about one of the best in the whole of NL hold em it is a dream come true if you get it. AA vs J10s (other suited connectors will be similar although slightly different) - 78% to 22% (another good spot)

Fair enough, these are great odds admittedly, and the kinds of hands an opponent might raise or go all in with, so agreed, folding AA is wrong pre-flop.:) It's on marginal edges that the argument seems to hold for folding to a raise in a tournament, not odds like these. So it's AA, and hope it's all in every time!

[CJB]

Re: Folding AA Thanks for the excellent replies. I was thinking about the hand Roy Brindly described in the Ladbrokes Diary where three people were all in with AA against AK and AQ. What would be the odds of winning in this case. Also if you were in late position and two people went all in before and had KK and QQ. what about then? Up to now I have always considered it a no brainer call and if you lose then it is just bad luck but i would be interested to know the odds.

[BillyHills]

Re: Folding AA Hope this helps.

[CJB]

Re: Folding AA Thanks Sorry Jezza - just reread the article and the question was answered there By definition then AA v KK & QQ will be about 60% fav (prob slighly more) so nothing too much to worry about (until I'm a good player that is) :rollin

[Jezza]

Re: Folding AA Hi CJB : It's AA : 67% KK : 19% QQ : 14% I've actually had this in a cash game. I was sat in the BB with AA, everyone folded around to the button who had QQ and the SB had KK!! There was mass action preflop (I actually tried to slowplay by flat calling the SB's raise but the button moved in over the top :D ) and we all ended up AI preflop. Thankfully my AA held up :cow a 67% is great, sure you will lose a lot of the time but you are getting a beefcake 2/1 payday on something which is odds on to win NOT BAD P.S check http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas_holdem.php# to try your own checking of various situations, some may surprise you. Jez

[CJ Mars]

Re: Folding AA Only marginally related but I was playing a 25$ PL tournament on Bet 365 today (127 entries). There were about 50 players left and I lying in 38^th with about 1900 chips. Blinds are 150:300. There was a raise of 1,000 from a similarly short stacked guy and everyone folds to me in the big blind. I’m holding 5:2 offsuit. I figure I’m going nowhere so I go all in with my chips. He debates it and folds. When I show my cards hes understandably not happy. I’m up to over 3,000 chips and placed in the 20s. The VERY next hand I get dealt pocket rockets:tongue2 . I’m now in the earliest position. I raise 800 hoping for a reraise. The guy on my left (chip leader at table) raises all my chips. Everyone folds to me and I gleefully go all in. I’m thinking what a shock he’ll get when he sees I have a hand this time. What does he turn over but pocket rockets as well :eek !!! No one at the table had ever seen it before.

Incidentally with 26 left I went out when in 17^th place on a nut flush draw the chip leader went all in with a K and 5 kicker. I busted out but it’s the second (of two) of those garunteed pot tournies that I’ve made the top 20 with over 12/150 entries. The blinds just kill me at the latter stages when I’m short stacked relative to the chip leaders. I find you just have to be that more aggressive than you would be otherwise as the big chip holders will kick you around with large raises with marginal enough hands otherwise.

[Jezza]

Re: Folding AA Yep it is rare to happen (and annoying) but I have seen two people get AA a few times at a table (and yeah I had it happen to me playing 1000$ buy in NL hold em cash table - the other guy had the max buyin also and I made a flush on the river :cow :cow :cow :cow :cow - he was not too chuffed to say the least) Of course the dream situation is two people get KK and you get AA but alas this has not happened to me yet! I totally agree btw CJ you have to take some chances and be aggressive before you get very short stacked in these tournies when the blinds are large - I always want enough chips to put people to a decision Jez

[aliensyndm]

Re: Folding AA I gurantee you if I ever get AA and 2 people get KK this will be the flop...... A (YUS!!!!!!) Q J turn will be a blank and the river a 10 of course.

[Jezza]

Re: Folding AA :o spoken with the sound of experience there alien