Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game

[ubermonkey1]

Thought i'd put this hand up as its another ak hand and we all love a bit of ak donkage:ok Everleaf Gaming Game #64103760 ***** Hand history for game #64103760 ***** Blinds 750/1500 NL Hold'em - 2008/11/25 - 22:02:53 Table 2 Seat 7 is the button Total number of players: 6 Seat 2: GazBlades3 ( 17385 ) Seat 4: cecavr ( 19963 ) Seat 5: deadlydaveLD ( 27780 ) Seat 6: JoeBurnFC ( 10380 ) Seat 7: ubermonkey ( 16185 ) Seat 10: ColchKev2 ( 12793 ) ColchKev2: posts small blind [$ 750] GazBlades3: posts big blind [$ 1500] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to ubermonkey [ Ac, Kc ] cecavr folds deadlydaveLD raises [$ 4500] JoeBurnFC folds ubermonkey calls [$ 4500] ColchKev2 folds GazBlades3 folds ** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 6c, 6s ] deadlydaveLD checks ubermonkey: bets [$ 4500] deadlydaveLD calls [$ 4500] ** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ] deadlydaveLD checks ubermonkey checks ** Dealing River ** [ Ah ] deadlydaveLD: bets [$ 7500] ???? okay heres my thinking on the hand so far. dave had been pretty deadly up till now,he had been raising a lot pf and seemingly bullying a bit mainly from late position,so i credited him with a half decent hand as he raised from early pos. i haven't really played dave before so no real previous info on him btw:ok so pf i did think about pushing all in, but decided to see a flop instead and called. hoped to pick up the pot with the bet on the flop or at least see where i stood a bit better , didnt really get either :\ he could have called with a fair few different hands really ,so he could be flush drawing or he might have a pair,overcards etc. i was sort of thinking he had aces at this point. the check and the club on the turn were pretty welcome,i checked behind hoping for a good river. will leave the river to see what you guys would think;)

[daftpegasus]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game If I had Aces and saw 2 spades on the flop I'd be betting so that you pay for your draw if your holding 2 spades. The same goes for the turn when you have 2 clubs also to worry about. He could be putting you on an over pair. If he does he might be hoping that the Ace on the river is a scare card for you. His bet implies he has an Ace. He's bascially saying that you need to call for your tournament life. Personally I'd call/re-raise the final 185 chips. You're only really losing to 22, 44, 66, x6 and whilst the low pp's are possible you've said that you credit him for a hand so it's unlikely that x6 is possible. You can rule out 22 also since he's called your post flop bet.

[Blatch]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game Personally at this stage I would have shoved pre flop with AK here. This isnt a major issue as you have decided to flat call. Can make arguments for both ways but I think there are other areas where you really could have played this better that we can concentrate on for you. Roughly 1/4 of your stack is in the pot already - infact im really starting to dislike the flat call pre flop but ill try to move on ;) The pot is 11,250 on an heavy drawing board and you bet 4,500? This looks incredible weak to me and stinks of nothing. What were you trying to achieve with this bet? I dont think its enough to make him fold anything. When he flat calls id be worried here, he could have the 6 but just as likely is something like the flush or just two over cards. When he checks the turn to you I have to fire all in. I have two overs and the nut flush draw and He can probably only call with the 6. He may well have raised pre flop with A6 sooooooted. Personally I shove pre flop but after you have flat called I probably check the flop and shove on the turn. I hope this doesnt come accross as im having a go at you or the way you played, im trust trying to give some advice from my opinion :)

[Blatch]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game p.s. im never folding the river here

[happyhornet]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I think I too would have pushed pre-flop, but as Blatch said, that is not the issue here. The Ace on the river counterfeits other big pairs and it is conceivable that Dave has AQ or AK aswell. I would call without hesitation (and lose given the way Dave hit every flop last night!!;))

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I'll post my thoughts on this hand once everyone has finished analyzing/ubermonkey posts the conclusion of the hand.

[billy the punter]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I don't like calling off 4500 of your chips at this stage - you aren't deep enough with regards to stacks to do so. I'm all in preflop here. Once you've played it this way then you're all in after the river - end of. Your previous play makes no sense otherwise. I'd bet you have the same hand, or at least both have aces up. I can't see deadlydave checking the turn with an over-pair. Once it's got this far you have to call. Did he have AK spades and you both had the draw?

[billy the punter]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game Sorry I totally mis-read. Didn't realise YOU bet the flop.

[billy the punter]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I still think you have to call, and perhaps this makes him having AKs more likely? I'm not as confident as I was when I though dave bet the flop, but it's still an all-in.

[george2loose]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game yep shove pre- everything after is fairly irrelevant as the money should have gone in

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game

Personally at this stage I would have shoved pre flop with AK here. This isnt a major issue as you have decided to flat call. Can make arguments for both ways but I think there are other areas where you really could have played this better that we can concentrate on for you. Roughly 1/4 of your stack is in the pot already - infact im really starting to dislike the flat call pre flop but ill try to move on ;) The pot is 11,250 on an heavy drawing board and you bet 4,500? This looks incredible weak to me and stinks of nothing. What were you trying to achieve with this bet? I dont think its enough to make him fold anything. When he flat calls id be worried here, he could have the 6 but just as likely is something like the flush or just two over cards. When he checks the turn to you I have to fire all in. I have two overs and the nut flush draw and He can probably only call with the 6. He may well have raised pre flop with A6 sooooooted. Personally I shove pre flop but after you have flat called I probably check the flop and shove on the turn. I hope this doesnt come accross as im having a go at you or the way you played, im trust trying to give some advice from my opinion :)

nah thats okay, thats why i put it up:ok maybe i didnt bet quite enough on the flop :spank i wanted to keep enough chips so it was viable to fold if neccesary but enough so it looked like i would be commited to the pot,if you see what i mean:unsure i was scared by his call:eek thats why i didnt bet the turn,i was sure he was calling if i did and he would probably not put me on a flush if i did hit ,so i didnt see the point in betting,in fact before the river i was set on folding.

[Blatch]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I think your last few words are the key here to why you should shove pre flop especially at this stage of the comp. You have to hit and your now thinking of folding, shoving gives you two big chances to win the pot and your sure to see all 5 cards. I cant have my oppo on an over pair here, if he has he has played it very badly. Im expecting you to be good here unless he has a6.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game

I'll post my thoughts on this hand once everyone has finished analyzing/ubermonkey posts the conclusion of the hand.

funny enough i would be doing the same thing you did in your position:ok thats sort of why i put the hand up. i think my major failing in the hand was because i had no experiance of playing you i sort of had to guage you as an abc player till i knew any better ,instead of being open to different possibilitys:\

[heniek31]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I think you told me outcome of that hand, but I didn't know the pattern of betting in it. I would definitely push in that spot, as if you don't hit the flop you are leaving 3rd of your stack behind. No way for me. You saw dave playing very loose and wide range of hands, what makes it even easier push.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game Ok, as the discussion has died down, I hope ubermonkey doesn't mind me posting the conclusion of the hand, and my thoughts on it. uber called, with his AK, and I had 67o for flopped trips. As I said in another thread during the tournament, this was a bit of a crapshoot in the middle-later stages. Therefore, for me, the key to success was stealing blinds, and also identify players who I thought were stealing blinds and I could re-steal from. I actually got the chip leader or 2nd chip leader moved to my right shortly before this hand, when I was on around 7500. I quickly realised he was stealing a lot, so re-raised all in with J8o and K7o when he raised from the SB and button in consecutive hands - both times he folded, giving me some chips to steal with myself. Now, to the actual hand in question. uber says in his opening post that in this hand I raised from early position. I would dispute this. We are playing 6 handed, so I'd only really consider the blinds as early position, maybe UTG, but certainly not UTG+1 - I'm going to steal from UTG+1 as much as I am from the button 6-handed. So, obiously, my intention is to pick up the 2250 in blinds, which is a real significant amount compared to the chipstacks. When uber flat calls, I'm putting him on maybe a middle pair 5s-9s, or something like a AJ, A10, KQ kind of hand. Certainly not AK or AQ or a big pair, as I'm pretty sure he'd have gone all in there (I got that wrong). My plan, having raised pre flop was to c-bet any flop without an A, but obviously this one was so good (and so unlikely that he'd connected) that I had to check-call. Obviously there's a flush draw out there, but you can't be running scared everytime there's suited cards on the flop if you want to win these things. The turn, pretty obviously isn't going to have helped the range of hands I had him on, but now the board is double suited. I possibly should have bet out here, but given that a lot of the hands he could have are middle pairs, the flush draw is still fairly unlikely (wrong again!). I don't like his check on the turn - this now says to me he wants the free card - unless he hits the river I'm unlikely to get anymore chips. The Ah is obviously a perfect river card. I don't think he will bluff at the pot without the ace. I don't think he will fold if he has the ace. Therefore I have to put him all in, and luckily for me uber had the AK. Looking at it from uber's point of view - I definitely shove pre-flop. I don't have the stats for how I was playing but I'm guessing (certainly after the early stages) that it was something like 34/29, so shoving pre-flop with AK has to be the play against someone playing like that (with lots of hands - see the J8o/K7o examples above) Once you have flat called pre-flop, I don't think you've done anything wrong.

[happyhornet]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game Nice hand analysis Dave:clap.

[billy the punter]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game Although I fully understand the need to steal, I'm not raving about the an out and out steal from UTG+1. I understand it's 6 handed and there is no real early position, but you were in a nice position in the tourn and there was no real need to put yourself "on offer" like that IMO. However that's irrelevant with regards to the post, besides it's not wrong - just down to preferences. Like I've said before, I don't like calling off 4500 of your chips here with AK. It's all in if you want to play the hand. Once the AK has flat called I don't really like the bet once checked on the flop. Once you've just called with AK (and wait for it to hit to insure your tourn survival) you have to wait to hit before firing surely? The turn play is totally correct though and you have to call with AK after the river once the hand has been played like this - uber is just unlucky he caught the river. If you both checked the flop, the pot is smaller, DD would've probably tried a milking bet on the turn and the river (which uber would've had to call both time) - you may've at least got out of it with 6k left or something.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game right here's the rest of the hand:ok Everleaf Gaming Game #64103760 ***** Hand history for game #64103760 ***** Blinds 750/1500 NL Hold'em - 2008/11/25 - 22:02:53 Table 2 Seat 7 is the button Total number of players: 6 Seat 2: GazBlades3 ( 17385 ) Seat 4: cecavr ( 19963 ) Seat 5: deadlydaveLD ( 27780 ) Seat 6: JoeBurnFC ( 10380 ) Seat 7: ubermonkey ( 16185 ) Seat 10: ColchKev2 ( 12793 ) ColchKev2: posts small blind [$ 750] GazBlades3: posts big blind [$ 1500] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to ubermonkey [ Ac, Kc ] cecavr folds deadlydaveLD raises [$ 4500] JoeBurnFC folds ubermonkey calls [$ 4500] ColchKev2 folds GazBlades3 folds ** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, 6c, 6s ] deadlydaveLD checks ubermonkey: bets [$ 4500] deadlydaveLD calls [$ 4500] ** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ] deadlydaveLD checks ubermonkey checks ** Dealing River ** [ Ah ] deadlydaveLD: bets [$ 7500] ubermonkey calls [$ 7185] deadlydaveLD shows [ 7h, 6d ]three of a kind, sixes ubermonkey shows [ Ac, Kc ]two pairs, aces and sixes deadlydaveLD wins 34620 chips from main pot with three of a kind, sixes [ Ah, 7h, 6d, 6c, 6s ] right i put this up as much because i thought dave played it well ,as i played it badly and got myself into trouble. part of my problem came from multitabling and not taking as much notice as i should i think(was running deep in 3 tourneys at the time:\) i hadnt noticed that the two shortstacks had done battle the hand before ,so there were no really shortstacks. most of the money was on our table as well i think and also the table was fairly tight. so all in all with the bubble on us ,its a good opportunity to be stealing if you have a good stack. also i didnt really give dave credit for playing the sort of hand he did(mainly coz i had little info on him) ,so i never even contemplated him having a 6. that was especially dumb on my part because i quiet happily raise from early with connectors as well because it can be easy to stack someone on a ugly looking flop. i also commited the cardinal sin of trying to get itm but also play hands. as everyone has said i should have pushed really or maybe even folded to get itm, i wimped out and went halfway and called:wall i did the same on the flop as well :walland once the river came i was toast really. out of interest i guess you wouldn't have called my all in dave:unsure if i'd done it as i had a fairly large stack but what about if bj or colkev pushed?,i would be considering it with 4/1ish odds i think and a lot of chips behind me.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game I call against the 2 shortstacks pushing in this spot, unless I strongly feel they have an overpair. I call 0% of the time if you shove.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Holdem tourney hand from last nights trillion game thats what i was thinking;)