Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

[Punto Banco]

***** Hand 1325756245 ***** 0.12/0.25 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Tuesday, 18 November 2008 8:30:22 PM Turbo TH 50 (Real/Cash Game) Seat 4: RayPenber (26.93) Seat 8: wlodek1 (6.30) Seat 1: supergreg9 (24.00) Seat 2: hcs1975 (12.19) Seat 3: Snickers8 (24.91) Seat 5: thom18 (85.59) Seat 6: tonytom22 (26.35) Seat 7: ivonkq (22.63) Seat 9: MikeTea (23.76) Seat 10: ioana77 (40.31) wlodek1 post SB 0.12 MikeTea post BB 0.25 ** Deal ** RayPenber [Kc, Kh] wlodek1 [N/A, N/A] supergreg9 [N/A, N/A] hcs1975 [N/A, N/A] Snickers8 [N/A, N/A] thom18 [N/A, N/A] tonytom22 [N/A, N/A] ivonkq [N/A, N/A] MikeTea [N/A, N/A] ioana77 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** ioana77 Call 0.25 supergreg9 Fold hcs1975 Call 0.25 Snickers8 Fold RayPenber Raise to 1.25 thom18 Call 1.25 tonytom22 Call 1.25 ivonkq Fold wlodek1 Fold MikeTea Fold ioana77 Call 1.25 hcs1975 Call 1.25 *** Flop(Board): *** : [4s, 7h, 10h] *** Bet Round 2 *** ioana77 Check hcs1975 Check RayPenber Bet 4.00 thom18 Call 4.00 tonytom22 Fold ioana77 Call 4.00 hcs1975 Fold *** Turn(Board): *** : [4s, 7h, 10h, 4c] *** Bet Round 3 *** ioana77 Check RayPenber Bet 10.00 thom18 Fold ioana77 Call 10.00 *** River(Board): *** : [4s, 7h, 10h, 4c, Qd] *** Bet Round 4 *** ioana77 All-in 25.06 RayPenber All-in 11.68 Despite the fact I only have a over pair I still think I am probably good (Turn was by far a good card for me) the board is drawing and it looks unlikely a made hand is out there.... by the river I have basically given up however Q 10 looks plausible of and at 4.5/1 I cant be folding here as there as the only hand that fits his line is 77 (of course trash like 74) the outrageous amount of callers here concerns me a lot however I am not sure I can get away from this... any thoughts?

[Fonzie14]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? With 2 limpers before me I may of been tempted to PFR a bit more in an attempt to protect my premiun hand. You raised to $1.25 into a pot that already contained 87c, so you are offering almost 2:1 to the next player, who calls ....then you get the domino effect where everybody with a reasonable hand is priced in....hence you ended up with a family pot. Flop initially seems good, but with 4 other players, a set is always a possibility. Now the problem - do you bet and charge the flush draw...or check in case there is a set already beating you. I probably bet (as you did) two thirds pot to chase away the draws. Turn seems a good card for you, but anyone with 77 or TT now has a boat and if someone is playing trash like A4 sooted, they now have trips...:( I think I check here and hope to check it down (unless you catch a K on the river ;)), you still have 2 customers and don't really know where you are. On the river, Villain now pushes.....hmmmm He limped UTG then called your PFR, can't see him doing this with QT, since then he has let you do the betting and he's just been calling. Slow playing 77 or TT - I think so. You do have good odds to call his all-in, but the only thing I think you're beating is a bluff. :sad But, I could be totally wrong :$

[Punto Banco]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

On the river, Villain now pushes.....hmmmm He limped UTG then called your PFR, can't see him doing this with QT, since then he has let you do the betting and he's just been calling. Slow playing 77 or TT - I think so. You do have good odds to call his all-in, but the only thing I think you're beating is a bluff. :sad But, I could be totally wrong :$

Few things... as you said he is the 3rd caller pre flop therefore more likely domino effect than real strength (Once I get one caller I reduce possible strength of all subsequent value... how many times have you seen fish call after limpers for "value" even with unsuited connectors... or 10 7 ;))... I had ruled out 10 10.... this player seemed to not care too much about position (I would guess he would be "protecting" his 10 10 pre with a raise) I have to disagree I personally think the only hand I am not beating here is 77 (minor chances of other random hands containing a 4).... just a little more thought I hadn't put into the first post...:ok

[Blatch]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? Insta call here and 9 times out of 10 your good. I very much doubt at this standard he will play 77 this way. I think the real key to ruling out 77 is his flat call on the flpp after your bet and a flat call before him. The flush draw is out and he would more than likely raise here. I would be more worried about a hand such a A4 sooooooted at this level, but your right saying the 2nd 4 should be a good card. Call and collect.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? yeah i would call as well,like you say 7s do seem to be the only hand that could be beating you . i think i would have min reraised in his position on the turn if i had hit a set, hopefully make your choice on the river trickier if you have an overpair and maximise the pot or make a bit out of the flush draws if they dont hit. so he might have it or hit some muppetty hand from bad play but other than that you have him.i reckon he has a 10.

[AJ]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? I really don't know, you could be facing something like QQs or even AA. He's never once raised you in the pot, just smiled and check called you you all the way. He thinks he's got you, and now he wants to stack you at the end. Alarm bells are ringing loud and clear here. I'm laying these cards down.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? You are getting a good price but you arent anywhere near 'good 9 times out of 10' in this spot at 6max, let alone full ring. Hes hardly taken a weak line, pretty indicative of a monster. I think you played this fine really, a call cant be terrible on the river but its one of those spots where, although it is hard to fold, id be surpised to see him having anything we beat... (QT possibly is all i can come up with).

[Punto Banco]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

You are getting a good price but you arent anywhere near 'good 9 times out of 10' in this spot at 6max, let alone full ring. Hes hardly taken a weak line, pretty indicative of a monster. I think you played this fine really, a call cant be terrible on the river but its one of those spots where, although it is hard to fold, id be surpised to see him having anything we beat... (QT possibly is all i can come up with).

Lets just say I made a BIG Note about this player after this hand....;)

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? Reading this thread I think its important to point out that we should really be looking for hands that take this line that we beat...rather than saying 'the only hand that beats us is 77' - because his line is SOOOOOO crazily strong. Unless you have seen the guy randomly check/calling - check/calling - spew all in for 1/4 pot. Then dont assume that he is doing it here with a 10 or random air, this would be a quick way to going broke. PS. op this isnt directed to you, I think you realise you are probably in trouble but feel you are getting a good enough price, cant fault that.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

Lets just say I made a BIG Note about this player after this hand....;)

o lol hmmmmmmmm

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? lol i really cant think of a thing he can/would/could possibly/might even if hes blind and cant see the cards/hrgb check call two streets and then spaz the river for 1/4 pot that you beat. Fess up!.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

PS. op this isnt directed to you, I think you realise you are probably in trouble but feel you are getting a good enough price, cant fault that.

re reading op i realise this isnt true :lol

[Punto Banco]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

re reading op i realise this isnt true :lol

Lets put it this way at the river when he shoved.... my heart hit the floor... it was over in my mind... but then looking at it and getting 4.5/1 and the fact that people love to shove/bet after missing etc.... I just basically figured 4.5/1 is good enough odds to call with a bluff catcher....the last line probably explains my exact thought...

[AJ]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? I think it's time to post the rest of the hand history

[Punto Banco]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

I think it's time to post the rest of the hand history

*** RIVER *** [4s 7h Th 4c] [Qd] ioana77 goes all-in with $25.06 RayPenber goes all-in with $11.68 *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $58.98 | Rake $3.00 Board: [4s 7h Th 4c Qd] supergreg9 won ($0.00), mucks hcs1975 won ($0.00), mucks Snickers8 won ($0.00), mucks RayPenber won ($58.98), showed [Kc Kh] thom18 won ($0.00), mucks tonytom22 won ($0.00), mucks ivonkq won ($0.00), mucks wlodek1 won ($0.00), mucks MikeTea won ($0.00), mucks ioana77 won ($0.00), showed [7d Qc]

[Fonzie14]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? Q7 o/s......:puke Nice call Ray :clap Guess I'll go read some more "Harrington on Cash Games" :$

[george2loose]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? I know the results have been posted but on such a wet board you have to pay him off on the river. So many busted draws he could now be shoving with.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

I know the results have been posted but on such a wet board you have to pay him off on the river. So many busted draws he could now be shoving with.

Maybe I give these people too much credit BUT he has absolutely no fold equity against a made hand - if he has the sense to shove a missed draw he must realise this. I might be levelling myself a bit here though. Also imo people shove missed draws a lot less than you think at micros and are more likely to be vbetting thinking they have the best hand a la this hand.

[Blatch]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? I cant believe that this many people were genuinely thinking of folding here. The 2nd 4 had to be a good card for you for this exact purpose. The oppo is an idiot for playing q7 the way he has and this just goes to show why 9/10 he will be good here. I was giving the villain credit for being half decent and looking at the range of hands he could have for the way he played it there are more that we are beating than those we are losing too. Still an insta call for me, especially know ive seen the results :-)

[george2loose]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

Maybe I give these people too much credit BUT he has absolutely no fold equity against a made hand - if he has the sense to shove a missed draw he must realise this. I might be levelling myself a bit here though. Also imo people shove missed draws a lot less than you think at micros and are more likely to be vbetting thinking they have the best hand a la this hand.

If we talk about micro stakes in isolation: 1) Would a lot of players at the level realise what betting for value means? 2) Would a micro stakes player value bet top pair or two pair here not realising the second 4 was a bad card??? IMO this is a snap high five the monitor CALL!

[Blatch]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

If we talk about micro stakes in isolation: 1) Would a lot of players at the level realise what betting for value means? 2) Would a micro stakes player value bet top pair or two pair here not realising the second 4 was a bad card??? IMO this is a snap high five the monitor CALL!

:cheers

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

If we talk about micro stakes in isolation: 1) Would a lot of players at the level realise what betting for value means? 2) Would a micro stakes player value bet top pair or two pair here not realising the second 4 was a bad card??? IMO this is a snap high five the monitor CALL!

So we call because; 1) Because we know he is shoving his busted draws 2) Because we know he cannot vbet correctly Which? :tongue2 My issue is that from the op we dont know hes shoving his busted draws, we dont know that he cant valuebet properly, but we do know that hes taken a donky-set/boat/monster line. If a player we respected as an ABC tag took this line then we think 'ah boo sucks he has a boat but im getting 4/1 bla so i kinda have to pay him off). Tbh i think that in this case, the odds we're getting and the strength of our hand is a better reason to call than because we imagine (with no proof) that he is shoving busted draws or cant value bet. Also (and this clearly isnt the case with this player) - Bad players imo are generally loose passive rather than loose aggressive the further down the stakes you go. You can save/gain a lot of money by not paying off someone who only raises the nuts...

[george2loose]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? Look your NEVER know what anyone's got until you play them for a few hands. I'm assuming that this hand was against a random - against a random I think this is a clear call. If for some reason you have him noted as a rock you can fold. Could have flopped a set- possible but I imagine he would raise rather then overcall on such a draw heavy board- same line if he had QQ.

[Blatch]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

So we call because; 1) Because we know he is shoving his busted draws 2) Because we know he cannot vbet correctly Which? :tongue2 My issue is that from the op we dont know hes shoving his busted draws, we dont know that he cant valuebet properly, but we do know that hes taken a donky-set/boat/monster line. If a player we respected as an ABC tag took this line then we think 'ah boo sucks he has a boat but im getting 4/1 bla so i kinda have to pay him off). Tbh i think that in this case, the odds we're getting and the strength of our hand is a better reason to call than because we imagine (with no proof) that he is shoving busted draws or cant value bet. Also (and this clearly isnt the case with this player) - Bad players imo are generally loose passive rather than loose aggressive the further down the stakes you go. You can save/gain a lot of money by not paying off someone who only raises the nuts...

No, no, no lol You have this all wrong. We are snap calling because we are well ahead of his "range" of hands he could have played this way. His range for me includes all of the following: - A10 k10 Q10 J10 10 10 - but doubtful 99 88 89 Any 2 hearts Complete Air - but very doubtful Out of all of these hands we are now beating over 90% and therefore its a snap call.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

The oppo is an idiot for playing q7 the way he has and this just goes to show why 9/10 he will be good here.

DOES NOT COMPUTE, DOES NOT COMPUTE. 9/10 players are not idiots these days, even at the micros.

[Blatch]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

DOES NOT COMPUTE, DOES NOT COMPUTE. 9/10 players are not idiots these days, even at the micros.

I didnt say 9/10 players are idiots, either at this level or not. I know there are some very good players at these limits, and I actually mentioned this in a recent magazine artcile where I tried to plug PL but they edited that bit. I said he was an idiot for playing q7 this way. In the villain's defence some times q7 will be good here, just not againt a good player which is the case here.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? he said he played it like an idiot AND that is why we will be good 9/10 times...

[Blatch]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair? If you back to my original post, before the results were revealed I said we would be good 9/10 times. Bad players are one of the MANY reasons why we would be good here 9/10 times.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

His range for me includes all of the following: - A10 k10 Q10 J10 10 10 - but doubtful 99 88 89 Any 2 hearts Complete Air - but very doubtful

:\ I disagree I cant get this across without sounding like a dick but seriously you havnt played many hands at the micros (maybe this is a compliment :lol). - People rarely shove missed draws - People slowplay a lot (If there were 50 streets they would keep checking, hopin to induce a bet that they could check/minraise over) - People love to get to showdown and shit themselves when a 'scare card' comes (ie. they would rather check/call with JT, KT, AT on that river than bet). I think against an unknown a decent range for this guy is JJ TT 77 44 QT I mean we are ahead of this range on the river at least 50% of the time because of the added combos of QT vs the pairs but seriously I think this is a a pretty big range to give an unknown in this spot. Ive said all along that we are calling this everytime because of the price we are getting (if you can put on non-boat hand in his range here then you are easily good to call).

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Am I Getting Too Committed With This Over Pair?

If you back to my original post, before the results were revealed I said we would be good 9/10 times. Bad players are one of the MANY reasons why we would be good here 9/10 times.

and im definately 100% sure that this isnt true. You are good here easily enough to make a call the play, but not 9/10 times.