staffy Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted November 23, 2008 Author Share Posted November 23, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit been busy all day so not played any poker at all. Just started though on the €3 tables on Boss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted November 24, 2008 Author Share Posted November 24, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldric Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Nice one :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 6, 2008 Author Share Posted December 6, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit 8 wins from the last ten games :clap it's these streaks that are so important to your numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 6, 2008 Author Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Cheers AJ. Will include the next few but laptop crashed so lost 4 games due to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 6, 2008 Author Share Posted December 6, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit 8 consecutive wins :) Knock out the 4 for the crash and it's 16 from 18 :loon Are these still Boss (I see it's USD - presume just wrong currency displayed?) - so a message to AJ :tongue2 This is why you pay the extra rake on Boss..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit 8 consecutive wins :) Knock out the 4 for the crash and it's 16 from 18 :loon Are these still Boss (I see it's USD - presume just wrong currency displayed?) - so a message to AJ :tongue2 This is why you pay the extra rake on Boss..... I doubt there is a single player on the PL(or the world) that has the skill level required to compensate for the extra rake paid on Boss, even allowing for a slightly lower standard (which will self correct anyway in the medium term). As an example, Staffy has played 167 games at $3.00, at 10% he's paid $50.10 in rake versus the $20.04 he'd have paid at 4%. That's a lot more games he needs to win, just to be standing still The variance will kick in anywhere you play. Paying over double the rake is crazy. If you still disagree GaF, can I refer you to your own signature ? :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit I disagree :tongue2 Will will do some maths later to prove (or disprove) my thoughts :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit I look forward to it, although the key varaible in any maths you do is a "softness" ratio that you assign to Boss, which is utterly subjective as we have zero meaningful data to quantify it with :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Playing at €50 on Boss, my strike rate has been about 63%. If I were only paying 4% rake, then I'd need a 60% strike rate to make the same profit (and I'm ignoring the 30% rakeback I get on Boss). Is it really that unlikely that the difference in standard between the two sites is enough to turn a 63% strike rate into a 60% strike rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit I look forward to it' date=' although the key varaible in any maths you do is a "softness" ratio that you assign to Boss, which is utterly subjective as we have zero meaningful data to quantify it with :unsure[/quote'] My intention is to deal with it by answering questions something like: If we get a 55% ITM at Stars, what ITM so we need at Boss for the same ROI? If we get a 60% ITM at Stars, what ITM so we need at Boss for the same ROI? If we get a 65% ITM at Stars, what ITM so we need at Boss for the same ROI? The subjective part will then be as to whether it's realistic for one site to have an ROI available that much higher than the other..... EDIT Just seen a similar approach from Slapdash :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit 60% ITM at Stars = 61.5% ITM at Boss Buy InRakePlayedWin RateBuy InsWinningsRakebackNet ProfitPokerstars$5.00$0.2010060%$520.00$600.00$0.00$80.00Boss$5.00$0.5010061.5%$550.00$615.00$15.00$80.00 65% ITM at Stars = 66.5% ITM at boss Buy InRakePlayedWin RateBuy InsWinningsRakebackNet ProfitPokerstars$5.00$0.2010065%$520.00$650.00$0.00$130.00Boss$5.00$0.5010066.5%$550.00$665.00$15.00$130.00 So looks like getting in the money 1 game extra at boss for every 66 played will leave Boss and Stars equal..... I believe the difference is far more than that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit GaF, to be fair, you're including 30% rakeback on Boss, but not including the FPPs you earn on Stars. But personally I'm fairly sure that the difference in standard is enough to overcome the additional rake. I'm not absolutely sure, as I haven't played enough on Stars. And it might depend on your style of play. Not being a free market fundamentalist, I'm not convinced by AJ's claim that any difference in standard will self-correct in the medium term (it's not really a free market anyway, as US players and players who want to play a zillion tables at a time can't play on Boss). I doubt that this argument will resolve itself any time soon, as those of us who are making a healthy profit on Boss but feel that the standard at similar buy-ins on Stars is higher are not going to switch, and neither are those who are making a healthy profit on Stars but don't like the idea of paying higher rake on Boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Playing at €50 on Boss, my strike rate has been about 63%. If I were only paying 4% rake, then I'd need a 60% strike rate to make the same profit (and I'm ignoring the 30% rakeback I get on Boss). Is it really that unlikely that the difference in standard between the two sites is enough to turn a 63% strike rate into a 60% strike rate? Over the medium to longer term ? Absolutely, yes it really is that unlikely. I think it hugely unlikely that one game is that much softer. What I consider way more likely is that you'd adjust your game to suit the conditions and your ITM ratio would be almost identical Why do I think some people do better on Boss ? I think they've not adjusted their game to take into account the different structure with the Antes. That's why they think the game is softer, but it's not; it's just more familar. More effort would lead to a higher net result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Not being a free market fundamentalist, I'm not convinced by AJ's claim that any difference in standard will self-correct in the medium term (it's not really a free market anyway, as US players and players who want to play a zillion tables at a time can't play on Boss). I know we're getting wildly off topic, but I need to address this point. You seem to imply that there is a statisically meaningful difference between the standard of play between US and non US players. Would you care to expand on your reasoning behind this ? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Over the medium to longer term ? Absolutely, yes it really is that unlikely. I think it hugely unlikely that one game is that much softer. What I consider way more likely is that you'd adjust your game to suit the conditions and your ITM ratio would be almost identical Why do I think some people do better on Boss ? I think they've not adjusted their game to take into account the different structure with the Antes. That's why they think the game is softer, but it's not; it's just more familar. More effort would lead to a higher net result I think you should give Boss a serious try - your argument is from a position of ignorance as you havent played on Boss for years (??). A number of people have tried both, and so far as I know they all believe that Boss is significantly weaker. You havent tried Boss lately and are the only one arguing it isnt significantly weaker.... I know we're getting wildly off topic, but I need to address this point. You seem to imply that there is a statisically meaningful difference between the standard of play between US and non US players. Would you care to expand on your reasoning behind this ? thanks Poker is far more engrained into society in the US than anywhere else (I believe) - so US players should be more aware and have more experience. Their communities (Pocket Fives and twoplustwo) are the recognised "authorities" on online Poker - sure international players can participate, but they are American forums and attract predominantly American players. There is also the argument that Pokerstars is just a poker site that only attracts "poker players" whilst a lot of the Boss skins have sports books attached so are more likely to attract "gamblers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit It's not from a point of ignorance, it's from a point of maths :ok What would playing 100 games on Boss tell me ? nothing I guess. You'd need a meaningful dataset to be sure, for coolers I'd say that's at least 500, maybe way more. The maths tell me that Boss charges 150% more to play. If I play Blackjack, should I select a game that pays 3/2 for blackjack or one that pays 6/5 ? I'm really surprised the two guys I'm debating with are making judgements based on small smaple sizes and subjective reasoning over pure numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit It's not just maths though - it's also our experiences of the players...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit You seem to imply that there is a statisically meaningful difference between the standard of play between US and non US players. No, that's not what I meant. I don't think US players are better than non US players. But for the "free market" argument to hold, better players would have to choose the softer site until that balanced the softness. And as far as Stars vs Boss is concerned, the US players can't do that. If Stars were softer than Boss, then there would be nothing to stop any Boss players from moving to Stars. But the converse isn't true, because US players (who make up a significant portion of online poker players) can't move the other way. Not everybody chooses their site/level so that they're a winning player (the rake sees to that ... it's not possible for everybody to be a winning, or even break even, player). That's why I'm not a free market fundamentalist as far as poker is concerned ... if I were, there would be no financial point in playing poker. So there is some inefficiency in the "poker market", but there are more pressures on the Stars market to tend to efficiency than there are on the Boss market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit It's not just maths though - it's also our experiences of the players...... Exactly. My perception of Stars vs Boss is not just based on the results of the coolers I've played. If it were, then I'd agree that I have a pitifully small sample to judge on. But if I played two tennis matches, the first against somebody who played like Roger Federer, and the second against somebody who played like Stephen Hawking, then I'd lose the first and win the second (*). 1-0 and 0-1? Statistically no basis at all to decide which was the better player! But still, I'd be absolutely sure which was better. [(*) I may be flattering myself there!] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Blimey I go to bed and you hijack my thread. Let me be totally honest here. I dont think there is much between the 2 sites if your a good player you would win on both which means I guess you should play on stars. Like I have said before I believe I am a break even player long term. i dont lose much playing poker and dont win much playing poker. My STT's stats on Boss are quite good over a long period which incudes the games my other half has played where she only ever loses. if I think I am a break even player only then I am going to pick a site which pays me to play. OK I have 20 odd thousand FPP's on Stars. I have hardly ever deposited and hardly ever withdrawn. I go up and down on the cash tables and up and down on STT's thats how I see my play anyway. Boss is the same. hardly ever deposit and withdraw now and again. So I am perhaps arguing with myself that I do slightly better on Boss. But my biggest draw is the fact I am earning a small amount of rake which i put to one side and which long term will add up hopefully. If my rake is just through V Points I save them until I need them. Hopefully this is never whilst I am playing coolers and one day I feel I have enough to withdraw to make it worth while. What is worth while. I have a full time job with reasonabl pay. I only play poker for pocket money. if it pays for spending money on holiday im happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit My biggest problem at the moment is i cant really use my FPP's on stars for the full potential as I am gold player need to be higher to enter the tournies. might use them for steps if i can to see if there any use. Dont think you can give them away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit Blimey I go to bed and you hijack my thread. :$ But at the risk of being that boring guest that you just can't get rid of at the end of the party ... It just occurred to me that even if you believe that market forces will mean that in the medium term players will move from Stars to Boss if Boss is more profitable, that doesn't mean that it will reach an equilibrium where the skill level is equal. At the equilibrium, profitability on Stars (after Stars rake) should equal profitability on Boss (after Boss's larger rake). At this point, a player's expected strike rate on Stars should be a little lower than on Boss. In other words, the "perfect free market" argument would predict a difference in skill level exactly large enough to make up for the difference in rake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge 1st set complete for €12 profit I have actually read the posts a couple of times now and its all very interesting but the only person who is correct is "you". at the end of the day "you" decide where and when to play and what strategy to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge €42 profit after 200 games Good solid start Staffy :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 Re: Coolers challenge €42 profit after 200 games Cheers Gaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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