Interesting River Spot

[Nade]

Tricky river spot where an argument can be made for raising, calling or folding. Interested to know what others would have done in the same situation and why. I called the turn as wanted to see what developed, didn't like my spot at all and so didn't want to create a big pot and still not really know where i'm at, was hoping for a paired board on the river and it came ! But this brought the most action. Weird. Opponents are good solid TAGs who don't get out of line too much at all and we pretty much avoid eachother. Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) BB ($82.25) UTG ($139.35) Hero ($189.70) Button ($135.80) SB ($109.25) Preflop: Hero is MP with 9, 9. UTG raises to $3.5, Hero calls $3.50, Button calls $3.50, SB calls $3, 1 fold. Flop: ($15) 5, 3, A(4 players) SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks. Turn: ($15) 9(4 players) SB bets $9, UTG calls $9, Hero calls $9, Button folds. River: ($42) A(3 players) SB bets $40, UTG calls $40, Hero ...

[SteveO]

Re: Interesting River Spot Well you definitely can't fold but I wouldn't raise either as you can only get called by a better hand. The sb seems to representing the nut flush but if he's a good tag player I think he wouldn't bet out the river with 2 behind. The utg flat call is also confusing as he would surely raise if has a fullhouse. So going on the info I would say the sb has nutflush, or maybe he had trips on the flop also UTG has trip aces. I would flat call if they're good tag players who know how you play they can't really call your reraise unless they have you. I can't see UTG having aces but perhaps he might have a5 a3 unlikely to have a9 as 3 are out from the deck, but surely he has to reraise you if he has either of those hands so you must be winning. Answer: Call! Just to add I am slightly confused by the UTG flat call.

[AlunB]

Re: Interesting River Spot At first I thought this was an obvious decision but the more I look at it the more interesting it gets. So you're losing to 2d4d A3, A5, A9 and weirdly played AA? You're beating any flush. Hard to see anyone with a lower set based on the flop action. So we have to believe SB and UTG player have Qd and Kd type hands. I guess if you think more than 33% of the time they do then call. Agree raising would probably be a mistake. Folding is fine bearing in mind what you have invested. You can see UTG having suited connector diamonds. And SB having a bare Kd I guess. I expect you called and one of them had A3, A5 or something like that...

[Tweetypie05]

Re: Interesting River Spot I'm awful at cash games but reckon you may be favourite here. My 'read' is the SB has a K high flush (or possibly a missed flush draw/2 pair/lower FH) and UTG has trips with AK/Q/J/T (or maybe a lower FH). Could be wrong (very, very likely) but would have called personally. Raising I don't like as you're probably only get called if one of them has the Aces over FH... interested to see what the experts think!

[happyhornet]

Re: Interesting River Spot Retrospectively, I can see why a number of people are flat calling on the river, but in the heat of the battle having just landed an almost unbeatable hand (Alun points out, only 5 hands are beating you), I would re-raise all-in. I can see K-high flush paying you off here as your raise looks like a steal.

[AJ]

Re: Interesting River Spot

Retrospectively, I can see why a number of people are flat calling on the river, but in the heat of the battle having just landed an almost unbeatable hand (Alun points out, only 5 hands are beating you), I would re-raise all-in. I can see K-high flush paying you off here as your raise looks like a steal.

Fully agree. You could even be facing AK. Slightly related point, I'd have popped out a reasonable sized C bet ($8??) on the flop to see where I was and try and take it down. Did you consider that ?

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot id like to hear the argument for folding...??? As said before, in the heat of the moment id be getting it in but the more i look i think the SB shows up with A3s/A5s ( possibly A9s) quite often. I think his bet on the turn could be a bit of a feeler to find out where abouts everyone else is in the hand (assuming he was check raising or check calling on the flop). His bet on the river looks to me like he knows that someone has a diamond they can call with after the two calls on the turn, to me that is why he bets so much. Like i say, in the heat of the moment i shove, if im given 10 minutes to stew i may just call and hope they both have flushes of some sort, and then when they do, curse my stupid non-raising self.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot either way i pretty much always get this wrong, if i raise he has afformentioned hand, if i call they show Kd and Qd or lower full houses. To think about it, is there anything to suggest that the small blind doesnt have a lower full house - I mean is his calling range in the small blind (after a number of callers) made up more of suited aces or pocket pairs (is he definately folding unsuited raggy aces in SB here)?? Either way on that board i think his river bet screams ' i have the best hand' (even if he doesnt have the best hand and just puts others on combos of diamonds)

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot ^ lol that whole post kinda proves i know nothing about hand ranges :-)

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Interesting River Spot hmmm definately a call or raise for me,but i'm still not sure which:unsure i think you'd get a call from the k high flush but there is a chance somone has aces over. on the other hand i would expect some action on the flop if someone had 2 pair with a draw heavy board. i definately wouldnt be too worried about utg as i'm pretty sure he would be reraising with a fh, so its really down to the sb. i have a feeling the sb has the kd and is betting out hoping for a q-j-10 d caller as it doesn't look like anyone has hit 2 pair or a set with the betting up to the turn. i think that the only real worry is the sb has a9 by the betting and thats pretty unlikely with 3 9's out, so i think i would have to reraise as i think your ahead :ok

[Glen1000]

Re: Interesting River Spot Hitting a full house means I'm getting all my money in and jumping for joy....then I lose the pot, look back on the hand a realise it was only the 6th best hand at that point:cry

[AlunB]

Re: Interesting River Spot It's worth paying attention to Nade's point that both are solid TAG players. As such surely the best you can hope for is SB has the nut flush and the UTG player had some suited connector hand for a worse flush. If the UTG player called with trip Aces I think you should adjust your read on him as a solid TAG Nade.... I agree with Uber that it's hard to see SB not leading out with two pair on that flop, but he may well have been going for a check-raise expecting the UTG player to c-bet on that flop. For the record I am calling as I think they both show up with flushes a good percentage of the time. I'm not shoving as I'm not sure it's a shove for value. Then again I am running bad and I am a nit.

[Nade]

Re: Interesting River Spot

Fully agree. You could even be facing AK. Slightly related point, I'd have popped out a reasonable sized C bet ($8??) on the flop to see where I was and try and take it down. Did you consider that ?

I often do put out bets to take pots that nobody else seems interested in, but here there was too many players in the hand i felt to not have connected with the board so i decided not to bet so i don't get myself too involved in a pot where i'm either likely behind now or will be on later streets. Also in best case scenarios i get a free draw on my 9!...

At first I thought this was an obvious decision but the more I look at it the more interesting it gets. So you're losing to 2d4d A3, A5, A9 and weirdly played AA? You're beating any flush. Hard to see anyone with a lower set based on the flop action. So we have to believe SB and UTG player have Qd and Kd type hands. I guess if you think more than 33% of the time they do then call. Agree raising would probably be a mistake. Folding is fine bearing in mind what you have invested. You can see UTG having suited connector diamonds. And SB having a bare Kd I guess. I expect you called and one of them had A3, A5 or something like that...

I do wonder about the maths in these situations and whether there is value in min-reraising or putting a bigger raise in. I feel competent players as they were they'd fold a flush to an all in, plus also i doubt they'd call my all in with a flush as i don't often put all my chips in so it would be pretty obvious. In my mind the only hands that will call a reraise that we beat are 55,33, maybe AKd. So that's a small range but could there be value here to extract from these hands or do people more often turn up with A3,A5,A9,AA,24d? Thanks for all the responses, seems an even split between calling and raising, will post the results up later ;)

[Nade]

Re: Interesting River Spot Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) BB ($82.25) UTG ($139.35) Hero ($189.70) Button ($135.80) SB ($109.25) Preflop: Hero is MP with 9, 9. UTG raises to $3.5, Hero calls $3.50, Button calls $3.50, SB calls $3, 1 fold. Flop: ($15) 5, 3, A (4 players) SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button checks. Turn: ($15) 9 (4 players) SB bets $9, UTG calls $9, Hero calls $9, Button folds. River: ($42) A (3 players) SB bets $40, UTG calls $40, Hero calls $40. Final Pot: $162 SB has 3c 3h (full house, threes full of aces). UTG doesn't show. (mucked [Jd Kd] - a flush, Ace high) Hero has 9c 9h (full house, nines full of aces). Outcome: Hero wins $162. So i call as the hand just played out really peculiar, i wasn't confident enough of being ahead to raise with all the action when the 2nd Ace pairs the board on the river. But then i feel a tinge of maybe i could have extracted more from the hand seeing one had a smaller FH. However, i think the hands they showed up with - set on flop, nut flush on turn show that just calling on the river is justifiable as they played their hands really tricky so proceeding with caution seems to be the best way in these scenarios.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot

either way i pretty much always get this wrong, if i raise he has afformentioned hand, if i call they show Kd and Qd or lower full houses. To think about it, is there anything to suggest that the small blind doesnt have a lower full house - I mean is his calling range in the small blind (after a number of callers) made up more of suited aces or pocket pairs (is he definately folding unsuited raggy aces in SB here)?? Either way on that board i think his river bet screams ' i have the best hand' (even if he doesnt have the best hand and just puts others on combos of diamonds)

IM A GENIUS!!! I knew if i mentioned every possible hand anyone could have i would get it right! :lol But seriously the more i looked at it the more it looked like he was hoping someone would bet their ace (or UTG would continue on Ace high board) on the flop and then when they didnt, he realises he has to bet to turn to make single diamonds pay so he puts out a feeler bet (once called he will probly value bet and fold to a raise on a non pairing river. Ones he hits his full house on the river and it comes the 4th diamond he has 'the nuts' in his eyes and bets pot because he knows he has the best hand, and knows hes been unucky if no one has a broadway diamond and he doesnt get paid. The key point was to know how he plays AXs and AX from the small blind in this kind of pot preflop, if he pitches them then you are raising the river, if he plays them then it might be a call.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot the small blind didnt play this tricky at all, he was simply check-raising the flop and no one bet (he is standard and not one to worry about). UTG payed it well imo and pretty much had to call the river (probably crying as he did so).

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot

I In my mind the only hands that will call a reraise that we beat are 55,33, maybe AKd. So that's a small range but could there be value here to extract from these hands or do people more often turn up with A3,A5,A9,AA,24d?

if you shove and get called by AA or 24d then just cry and reload :puke

[Nade]

Re: Interesting River Spot

the small blind didnt play this tricky at all' date=' he was simply check-raising the flop and no one bet (he is standard and not one to worry about). UTG payed it well imo and pretty much had to call the river (probably crying as he did so).[/quote'] To me wanting to check-raise is playing it tricky as it's a drawy board and no guarantee the person will bet so they can check-raise. Betting out is standard. Plus i think UTG has to re-raise the turn for value. There's so many cards that are action killers on the river, the Ad is the number1 action killer. Nearly always someone with a set will call a re-raise even if there's 3 to flush there as they hope the board will pair but depends how big the raise is. Plus if a 4th diamond comes you get little action apart from someone with Ad (not to know nobody had it here).

[SteveO]

Re: Interesting River Spot Well the SB and UTG played their hands terrible there especially UTG whereby he didn't reraise on the turn. I wouldn't label them as good solid payers anymore more Nade. I don't understand why the SB hasn't bet out from the on the flop especially with 2 players behind then if he gets reraised he can Jam the pot and if it's a higher set so be it. If he gets called at least he'll have an indication of the players holdings.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: Interesting River Spot TBH i would say its more tricky that the UTG didnt cbet the flop than it is tricky that the small blind didnt open. I know that on an ace high flop with a raiser and 3 callers, if im first to act and ive hit a set im probably checking it, donking looks so strong(are you ever donking that flop after that preflop action with anything less than a set) i think if it checks through then playing a diamond turn isnt particularly tricky.

[SteveO]

Re: Interesting River Spot Yes but you have bottom set on flushing board, I'd rather bet it, hope to get reraised and Jam it all in.

[Valiant23]

Re: Interesting River Spot

So i call as the hand just played out really peculiar, i wasn't confident enough of being ahead to raise with all the action when the 2nd Ace pairs the board on the river.

Nade, why didn't trust your initial read on the others? If you had, then surely you could discount the Ace hands that have you beat (lets say with the exception of AA). So out of the five hands that could beat you, that leaves the straight flush. Personally I'd be happy to try a raise here. I'm no cash player though. :ok