The Derby track - good or bad

[stewartd14]

As we all know, the Epsom Derby is held at Epsom and has been for a long time. Epsom is a track with many hills, slopes and undulations, resulting in it being a bit of a specialist track. Every time the Derby comes round, there is this enigma of whether horses will handle the track. The question basically is: Do you think the Derby should be held at Epsom. Do you think it is fair that the track can deny the best horse a victory in such a prestigious race ? Many Derby winners dont even win another race after Epsom, surely this is detrimental to the Derby as a race. No wonder Jim Bolger was wary of sending his horse to Epsom. Your views? :ok:ok

[billy the punter]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad In a word; NO. This has always been my view (although it possibly strenghtened as I was ripping up my 33/1 Hala Bek ante-post vouchers two years ago). Many times the Derby winner has not been the best 3yo 12f horse that season; Sir Percy, Kris Kin, High-Rise, Benny The Dip, Shaamit. In fact (bar High-Rise) I don't think any of those were even the best 12f horse on the day, just the best 12f horse that could handle Epsom. Is that right for your DERBY winner?

[stewartd14]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad

In a word; NO. This has always been my view (although it possibly strenghtened as I was ripping up my 33/1 Hala Bek ante-post vouchers two years ago). Many times the Derby winner has not been the best 3yo 12f horse that season; Sir Percy, Kris Kin, High-Rise, Benny The Dip, Shaamit. In fact (bar High-Rise) I don't think any of those were even the best 12f horse on the day, just the best 12f horse that could handle Epsom. Is that right for your DERBY winner?

Exactly my opinion, the Derby is such a prestigious race it should be run on a fair track. Epsom is a unique track and it is not an extra ability to handle the undulations, thats not the making of a good horse. This is the Derby for christ sake, how are trainers going to feel when their horse that looked the best on paper struggles with the undulations. I know it is tradition that it is run at Epsom but you can't keep with tradition forever. Think the best horse probably won last year, but I feel Authorized would have won if the race had been run in my back garden :loon PS. My dad also had a decent bet on Hala Bek, he couldnt believe his eyes when the horse stumbled. He was certain it was coming through to win, and it probably was :sad

[bowles10]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad I am in the other camp here. The Derby goes back over 200 years & Epsom hasnt changed since day 1 (except for the facilities of course). The fact is horses should be trained for the Derby, its not just another horse race. If your horse wont act on the track then dont train it for the race, simple as. THe problem over the last 25 years is that the derby winner now has a fantastic stud value & therefore everyone wants to know if a horse is from a derby winner, doesnt mean it will be a worldbeater, you dont see that many decent animals coming from previous Derby winners. So, in my mind, its a one off race that is for 3yo Colts. where they go after Epsom is down to the trainer / owner & how they have trained the horse. the eclipse is a derby graveyard as is the King George. I would have 3 races in mind during the season, Derby, Juddmonte & Arc. Difficult to do as spread over 4 months, however I feel achievable as there are 2 months between each race- June - August - October.

[billy the punter]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad

Exactly my opinion, the Derby is such a prestigious race it should be run on a fair track. Epsom is a unique track and it is not an extra ability to handle the undulations, thats not the making of a good horse. This is the Derby for christ sake, how are trainers going to feel when their horse that looked the best on paper struggles with the undulations. I know it is tradition that it is run at Epsom but you can't keep with tradition forever. Think the best horse probably won last year, but I feel Authorized would have won if the race had been run in my back garden :loon PS. My dad also had a decent bet on Hala Bek, he couldnt believe his eyes when the horse stumbled. He was certain it was coming through to win, and it probably was :sad

Yes Hala Bek would've been an impressive winner, no doub't in my mind. I actually said after his maiden win though, being hard to train, that they probably won't get any more runs into it, go straight to the Derby, get injured and we'd never see him again. How gutted was I that it actually came true - but that's the point, you EXPECT that sort of thing with Epsom. It wasn't THAT hard to predict. It's ridiculous to be honest. I know two horses that had to miss about 10 months after the Derby Dash last season (mine was one, who was about to challenge for the places at 66/1 when breaking down), there could've been more in the race I don't know.

[stewartd14]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad

I am in the other camp here. The Derby goes back over 200 years & Epsom hasnt changed since day 1 (except for the facilities of course). The fact is horses should be trained for the Derby, its not just another horse race. If your horse wont act on the track then dont train it for the race, simple as. THe problem over the last 25 years is that the derby winner now has a fantastic stud value & therefore everyone wants to know if a horse is from a derby winner, doesnt mean it will be a worldbeater, you dont see that many decent animals coming from previous Derby winners. So, in my mind, its a one off race that is for 3yo Colts. where they go after Epsom is down to the trainer / owner & how they have trained the horse. the eclipse is a derby graveyard as is the King George. I would have 3 races in mind during the season, Derby, Juddmonte & Arc. Difficult to do as spread over 4 months, however I feel achievable as there are 2 months between each race- June - August - October.

Training a horse to win the Derby is hard enough, surely having to worry about the undulations makes it even more difficult. This results in some horses avoiding the race because of this worry. I think the stats probably speak for themselves about how many Derby winners have raced on but not won another race. I do feel that it is unfair that some horses act on the track and some dont, it makes it more difficult for punters and it ultimately means the race is not raced on a level playing field. Thats just my opinion though, and I am a person that feels sometimes tradition should be ignored for the sake of being sensible. Others, however, like to stick with tradition. :ok

[bowles10]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad

Training a horse to win the Derby is hard enough, surely having to worry about the undulations makes it even more difficult. This results in some horses avoiding the race because of this worry. I think the stats probably speak for themselves about how many Derby winners have raced on but not won another race. I do feel that it is unfair that some horses act on the track and some dont, it makes it more difficult for punters and it ultimately means the race is not raced on a level playing field. Thats just my opinion though, and I am a person that feels sometimes tradition should be ignored for the sake of being sensible. Others, however, like to stick with tradition. :ok

You would end up running it at Ascot then, which is right handed not left handed like Epsom, & is a flat track. I am sorry but you should also be touting the Cheltenham Gold Cup to be run at sandown if you follow same logic! Another argument is that the race is run too early in the year - would that help? The whole thing is aimed at trainers being ready for the race. Most would see the Derby as the pinnacle of the year much like the cup final which has been devalued over the years due to the emphasis on Europe (CL etc), same could be said for Racing, we now have worldwide events for these top horses & the Derby has to keep up with that. It is about tradition I am afraid as otherwise, we may as well be watching the virtual stuff! :lol

[stewartd14]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad

You would end up running it at Ascot then, which is right handed not left handed like Epsom, & is a flat track. I am sorry but you should also be touting the Cheltenham Gold Cup to be run at sandown if you follow same logic! Another argument is that the race is run too early in the year - would that help? The whole thing is aimed at trainers being ready for the race. Most would see the Derby as the pinnacle of the year much like the cup final which has been devalued over the years due to the emphasis on Europe (CL etc), same could be said for Racing, we now have worldwide events for these top horses & the Derby has to keep up with that. It is about tradition I am afraid as otherwise, we may as well be watching the virtual stuff! :lol

Cheltenham is not an unfair track though, most horses handle Cheltenham and the uphill finish is the ultimate test of stamina at the end of a long hard race IMO. Anyway, we clearly have completely opposing views, so lets agree to differ. ;) The time of year is a difficult one as Godolphin horses for example have not had the time to get ready for the race, but that is their fault for wintering them in Dubai. All in all, I think the british schedule is quite good considering the amount of racing we have. The only thing I would suggest is moving the Guineas and Epsom back a month to allow for poor weather in the winter, which effects the improvement and maturity of the 2 year olds becoming 3 y olds. :ok

[bowles10]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad

Cheltenham is not an unfair track though, most horses handle Cheltenham and the uphill finish is the ultimate test of stamina at the end of a long hard race IMO. :ok

many would disagree with that statement. There are a vast number of horses that dont handle Cheltenham which again is part of the trainers skill to choose between Cheltenham & Aintree. The same can be said for Epsom & Royal Ascot. One of the problems i see is the lack of 1m 4f prep races for these animals. Winning the guineas over a speedy 1m at Newmarket & then expecting to win the Derby over 4f further on an undulating track would be an astonishing feat. Looking back at the winners since 1970, the 70's & 80's were brilliant weren't they ! Littered with excellent horses, then came the 90's to now which the same cannot be said as Billy has pointed out before. Anyway after backing the last 3 Derby winners, i need to look at the card for saturday"!

Year	Winner	Owner	Jockey	Trainer	Time
2007	Authorized	Saleh Al Homaizi & Imad Al Sagar	Frankie Dettori	Peter Chapple-Hyam	2:34.77
2006	Sir Percy	Anthony Pakenham	Martin Dwyer	Marcus Tregoning	2:35:23
2005	Motivator (IRE)	Royal Ascot Racing Club	J. Murtagh	Michael Bell	2.35.69
2004	North Light (IRE)	Ballymacoll Stud Farm Ltd	K. Fallon	Sir Michael Stoute	2.33.72
2003	Kris Kin (USA)	Mr. Saeed Suhail	K. Fallon	Sir Michael Stoute	2.33.35
2002	High Chaparral (IRE)	Mrs John Magnier & Mr M. Tabor	J. Murtagh	A.P. O'Brien	2.39.45
2001	Galileo	Sue Magnier and Michael Tabor	Mick Kinane	Aidan O'Brien	2 33
2000	Sinndar	H.H Aga Khan	J. Murtagh	J. Oxx	2 36.75
1999	Oath	The Thoroughbred Corporation	K. Fallon	H R A Cecil	2 37.43
1998	High Rise	Sheik Mohammed Obaid Al- Maktoum	O. Peslier	L. M Cumani	2 33.88
1997	Benny the Dip	Mr L. Knights	W. Ryan	John Gosden	2 35.77
1996	Shaamit	K. Abdullah Dasman	M. Hills	W. Haggas	2 35.05
1995	Lammtarra	Saeed Maktoum Al-Maktoum	W. R. Swinburn	Saeed bin Suroor	2 32.31
1994	Erhaab	Sheik H. Al-Maktoum	W. Carson	John Dunlop	2 34.16
1993	Commander in Chief	Mr K. Abdulla	M. Kinane	Henry Cecil	2 34.51
1992	Dr Devious	Mr S. H. Craig	J. Reid	Peter Chapple-Hyam	2 36.19
1991	Generous	Mr F. Salman	A. Munro	Paul Cole	2 34.00
1990	Quest for Fame	Mr K. Abdulla	P. Eddery	Roger Charlton	2 37.26
1989	Nashwan	Sheik H. Al-Maktoum	W. Carson	Dick Hern	2 34.90
1988	Kahyasi	H.H Aga Khan	R. Cochrane	Luca Cumani	2 33.84
1987	Reference Point	Mr L. Freedman	S. Cauthen	Henry Cecil	2 33.90
1986	Shahrastani	H.H Aga Khan	W.R. Swinburn	Micheal Stoute	2 37.13
1985	Slip Anchor	Lord Howard de Walden	S. Cauthen	Henry Cecil	2 36.23
1984	Secreto	Mr L. Miglitti	C. Roche	David O'Brien	2 39.12
1983	Teenoso	Mr E. B. Moller	L. Piggott	G. Wragg	2 49.07
1982	Golden Fleece	Mr R. Sangster	P. Eddery	Vincent O'Brien	2 34.27
1981	Shergar	H.H Aga Khan	W.R. Swinburn	Micheal Stoute	2 44.21
1980	Henbit	Mrs A. Plesch	W. Carson	Dick Hern	2 34.77
1979	Troy	Sir Micheal Sobell	W. Carson	Dick Hern	2 36.59
1978	Shirley Heights	Lord Halifax	G. Starkey	John Dunlop	2 35.30
1977	The Minstrel	Mr R. Sangster	L. Piggott	Vincent O'Brien	2 36.44
1976	Empery	Mr N. B Hunt	L. Piggott	Maurice Zilber	2 35.69
1975	Grundy	Dr C. Vittadini	P. Eddery	Peter Walwyn	2 35.35
1974	Snow Knight	Mrs Neil F. Phillips	B. Taylor	Peter Nelson	2 35.04
1973	Morston	Mr A. M. Budgett	E. Hide	Mr A.M. Budgett	2 35.92
1972	Roberto	Mr J. W. Galbreath	L. Piggott	Vincent O'Brien	2 36.09
1971	Mill Reef	Mr P. Mellon	G. Lewis	Ian Balding	2 37.14
1970	Nijinsky	Mr C.W Engelhard	L. Piggott	Vincent O'Brien	2 34.6

[stewartd14]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad Personally think a higher % handle Chelters than Epsom but dont have the statistics. (Dont think there would be any - personal opinion and nothing factual) Dont think there is time for 1m 4f races and I think that it is a problem. Horses are encouraged to go Guineas-Derby-St Leger. With the small gap between the Guineas and the Derby, I dont think there is much time to have 3 or 4 1m 4f "trials" so to speak. Might be another argument for holding the Derby late June/July. Anyway, good luck with your studying Rob, heres to the next 3 as well ;) (although, my big toe could have picked Authorized :tongue2) :ok

[Gingertipster]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad Have a lot to say on this (as always) so will do so when I have more time.

[Cassius Marcellus]

Re: The Derby track - good or bad Never been one for looking at results afterwards, but just noticed Shergars time (above) 9 seconds off the rest. I don't think we'll see a Triple Crown winner again as the St Leger is dead as race these days. There are some who want to change the Derby. I was listening to people the other day concerning Epsom, and there was a general feeling that while the course was a true test of a horses ability to travel well, and also its balance, the majority would have cut the race to ten furlongs. I'd vote for keeping it at 12, and if you don't like it as a trainer, take your horse elsewhere.