Flopped nuts on tricky board

[Nade]

I've flopped the nuts, but the board is quite drawy and there's a lot of action - working out the optimum play in these areas has always been one of my gray areas. Table #7092906 - Crouching Tiger 1 Starting Hand #357786405 Last Hand #357785021 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: RING Money Type: REAL MONEY Blinds are now $0.50/$1 Button is at seat 4 Seat 1: 27Nade - $170.90 Seat 2: Gatica1 - $115.43 Seat 3: titolab - $29.80 Seat 4: bish619 - $75.78 Seat 5: Heimlich81 - $114.45 Seat 6: WrayBuoy - $68.52 Moving Button to seat 5 WrayBuoy posts small blind ($0.50) 27Nade posts big blind ($1) Shuffling Deck Dealing Cards Dealing [9h 9c] to 27Nade Gatica1 raises to $3.50 titolab folds bish619 calls $3.50 Heimlich81 folds WrayBuoy folds 27Nade calls $3.50 Dealing Flop [9d 3d 8c] 27Nade checks Gatica1 bets $11 bish619 calls $11 27Nade ... Was the check wrong in the first place? Should i call to continue the trap but risk being outdrawn or look to build the pot now ? Just some of the thoughts and possibilites ... Info i have on the players is gatica is a solid player, doesn't try anything too fancy from what i'd seen. Bish is a bit loose and well, a bit fishy tbh.

[the croc]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board $32.50 in the pot,im raising to $44 here big enough to discourage a flush chaser.ideal scenario is the board pairs on turn giving them their flush and you the full house.nothing wrong with your call initially,calling here is an option but i have lost too many hands slow playing for value.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board at this point i would be pushing hard:ok you have the nuts at the moment and i would only be scared of someone with a open ended straight flush draw which is unlikely. i suspect gatica has a overpair and bish could have anything ,but most likely a draw either straight or flush. so it looks like your a pretty big favorite at the moment so i would raise to $40-$50. if gatica does have a overpair he may well go all in over you ,which would be nice:) if not bish may well call if hes been loose and fishy,make him pay for his draw. i would have bet the flop because it looks less fishy than the check raise, also you get a bit more real info on the others hands by betting into them. just a small probing bet like $4 is ok ,if gatica does have a overpair he would probably reraise that bet to protect himself on a drawy board (like he did anyway).then you just push back over the top and its hard for him not to call.

[AJ]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board Agree, no cheap cards. Someone is flush chasing here, don't give them pot odds. Pot sized raise is in order here

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board I'd never, ever call here. Two draws on the board, and the overpair the original raiser is repping is going to be scared of a flush or straight card too. So if a diamond comes you either lose value or you're behind. Don't consider giving a free card. So $33 in pot, $11 to call I'd make it $40-$45. Overpair may fold, but may push, if a draw calls it's a bad call. Don't get yourself in a sticky situation by trying to trap. Another thing, I personally squeeze with 99 there preflop against most players, especially with the cold call. As played I check raise like (I hope!) you did.

[Nade]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board Ok here's the rest of the hand ... 27Nade raises to $33 Gatica1 folds bish619 folds Taking Rake of $2.20 from pot 1 27Nade doesn't show 27Nade wins $41.80 Seat 1: 27Nade - $198.20 Seat 2: Gatica1 - $100.93 Seat 3: titolab - $29.80 Seat 4: bish619 - $61.28 Seat 5: Heimlich81 - $114.45 Seat 6: WrayBuoy - $68.02 End Of Hand #357786405 I did go for the pot sized re-raise which took the pot down. I was happy to win the pot, but as said in the first post i was wondering if the play was the right move to get maximum from the hand? In general i don't seem to get the 'maximum' when i hit big hands and is something that needs working on so was wondering if this hand falls into that category too or i should be pleased to take the pot down at that point?

[the croc]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board 41% of your buy in from 1 hand,good value i would say.:clap:clap:clap

[AlunB]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board Yeah I think that's an interesting point Nade. And I'm going to play devil's advocate to this unrelenting wall of TAGs :tongue2 I'm not sure calling here is a horrible play if you want either player to stack off against you. There are way more hands in their range that are not SD/FD hands than those that are. And you are such a massive favourite here. This is a really really rough pokerstove, but it shows what I mean. And unless you have a stone cold read you can't say they are on a SD/FD for certain. Top pair, overpair, two pair or lower set all seem just as likely to me. 1,075,617 games 14.689 secs 73,226 games/sec Board: 9d 3d 8c Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 75.080% 75.09% 00.00% 807631 0.00 { 9c9h } Hand 1: 07.731% 07.59% 00.14% 81641 1523.50 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ } Hand 2: 17.189% 17.05% 00.14% 183385 1523.50 { JJ-TT, 88-77, 33, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd5d, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, J9o+, T9o, 76o } --- This is what happens if the nightmare scenario hits... --- 1,141,738 games 15.600 secs 73,188 games/sec Board: 9d 3d 8c Td Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 43.678% 43.68% 00.00% 498715 0.00 { 9c9h } Hand 1: 18.926% 18.56% 00.37% 211895 4204.50 { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, J9s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AQo+ } Hand 2: 37.396% 37.03% 00.37% 422787 4204.50 { JJ-TT, 88-77, 33, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd5d, Kd4d, Kd3d, Kd2d, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, J9o+, T9o, 76o } --- And that's a ridiculously tight range for the fish if you ask me.

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board how many fish double barrell into two callers unimproved with K high? Plus you lose value from an overpair/top pair if a draw card hits. Sorry but a call is bad play to me, I think it always seems to be nitty players who always want to slow play big hands on dangerous boards not wanting to scare people off. A call might win you more the odd time, but it will also lose money a lot too, and put yourself in difficult situations where you don't know where you stand.

[SteveO]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board I would have led out with a pot sized bet hoping for any kind or raise behind whereby I would jam the pot. If they both flat called so be it but I think a big pair is likely to raise to find out where he is. I would never just call against 2 opponents on that board in the situation you find yourself in. Your check raise was good enough to take down the pot and did scream of uber strength so unlikely to get any more action.

[AlunB]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

how many fish double barrell into two callers unimproved with K high? Plus you lose value from an overpair/top pair if a draw card hits. Sorry but a call is bad play to me, I think it always seems to be nitty players who always want to slow play big hands on dangerous boards not wanting to scare people off. A call might win you more the odd time, but it will also lose money a lot too, and put yourself in difficult situations where you don't know where you stand.

Agreed. I'm just saying do you really think it's this black and white? Is a call really that bad here that it should never be countenanced against any player ever? By that I mean, say you have seen the good player being very agressive post-flop and the fish calling down pretty light. Could you win both their stacks by check-raising a blank turn (which will happen more than 50% of the time right?) when they are both pot-committed. Is poker ever that clear cut black and white that you can say never call here? That was my only point. I don't disagree with you per se. The fish was the one calling the bet btw. At this level that doesn't automatically mean flush or straight draw. FWIW I would agree with Steve'O (as has been Annie Duke in our mag) and say lead into this pot. You win more in the long run this way.

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

Agreed. I'm just saying do you really think it's this black and white? Is a call really that bad here that it should never be countenanced against any player ever? By that I mean, say you have seen the good player being very agressive post-flop and the fish calling down pretty light. Could you win both their stacks by check-raising a blank turn (which will happen more than 50% of the time right?) when they are both pot-committed.

Like I say I don't think a "good aggressive player" double barrels that kind of board against two opponents regularly, especially since we are told he doesn't get fancy. And obviously poker isn't that black and white, but we play for positive expectation in the long run, and the +EV move here is undoubtedly raising - after all it's a multiway pot with 2 draws. If we have fantastic reads including c-bet percentages, cold call pre percentages, flat call c-bet percentages and a very good awareness of our image, we can take different lines - but we don't.

FWIW I would agree with Steve'O (as has been Annie Duke in our mag) and say lead into this pot. You win more in the long run this way.

And I tend not to be a great advocate of this unless we know how the preflop raiser reacts to "donk" bets into him. If we know for a fact he raises them often in 3 way pot then fine, however you could simply get a call (from fish) and a fold or 2 calls (assuming fishy stays). With less money in the pot on the turn. A check raise allows the original raiser to bet with air or a hand, the fish to call light, and us to reraise putting more in the pot and not allowing cheap draws - so in my mind it's the best move. To me the best way to get more in the pot is 3-bet pre, which I would do a lot of the time. But I think it was played fine and this sort of hand won't be affecting your winrate really.

[AlunB]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

Like I say I don't think a "good aggressive player" double barrels that kind of board against two opponents regularly' date=' especially since we are told he doesn't get fancy.[/quote'] Are you presuming the player doesn't have an overpair or a FD/SD? If so then I agree. I don't think we should assume that though. You make it sound like you think he has air - or am I reading that wrong? I guess it's a question of do you think you are more likely to get more money in the long run by him raising over your bet if he has an overpair etc etc or by taking the C/R line? What does everyone else think? I'm just asking questions here because I am interested in people's opinions about these situations. Although personally I would bet out, that doesn't mean I am right. Or even that I would do it every time.

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

Are you presuming the player doesn't have an overpair or a FD/SD? If so then I agree. I don't think we should assume that though. You make it sound like you think he has air - or am I reading that wrong?

If he has an overpair more likely he will get in on the flop, a bad card can kill our action and we lose value. If he has flush draw, most likely it is with overcards and again he will often push flop, and again I don't want to give free cards to these draws in hope he bets again. And the lead on the flop, I personally would want a good idea of the opponents reaction to this before I do it.

[GaF]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

I'm just asking questions here because I am interested in people's opinions about these situations.

It's great to see a passionate discussion from two different camps - and it's the best way for us to learn - we dont learn anything by all agreeing with one another, we dont learn much by only hearing one argument. I havent looked at it in enough depth to comment, but I'll make sure I find the time to have a good look :ok

[AlunB]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board Cheers Rob. Apologies for thread hijack Nade. I agree you played it just fine. Was just interested in thoughts on alternative lines as it's an interesting hand. Any other thoughts/opinions gratefullly recieved.

[SteveO]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board I agree that a check raise or leading out can both be applied to this situation depending upon the opponents but from my experience leading out is most likely to get an opponent to stack off, check raising scares em off.

[AlunB]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board Also what about the not uncommon situation where you get two checks behind and then a scare card on the turn?

[Tweetypie05]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

I agree that a check raise or leading out can both be applied to this situation depending upon the opponents but from my experience leading out is most likely to get an opponent to stack off' date=' check raising scares em off.[/quote'] Nade - I think you played it perfectly. The pot wasn't huge on the flop and you check raised with the best hand once the pot was raised. A bet out would also work and I agree with Steve'O that your more likely to be ALL-IN with the bet on the flop. So for me it's really a question of do you feel lucky punk? As I say I think you played it well but as Alun points out they could have both checked (unlikely I would think) and, as always happen to me, the nightmare card comes on the turn. Then what? Assuming you bet out on the flop how much should you bet ? What's the range and why?

[Nade]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board Love this very interesting debate :clap Would have replied yesterday but had a long sesh into sunday morning so had a hazy head. Hard to know where to start on this ;) but what i'll say is this was on pkr where no poker trackers or any other such device work so i didn't have any specific information on how often they call a flop bet or continuation bet etc. so i'm not totally confident on what ranges to put people on which is a large reason why i wouldn't have called the bet on the flop. If using a tracker then i think it's possible to call against the right opponents. I'm not that good with maths really so it's useful to see those stats Alun points out as it's something i was also wondering about. Essentially the reason i decided to re-raise and not call is because of bish who called - as they have a large range of calling hands and so there's a large amount of cards on the turn which would probably scare me and leave me in a tricky situation so i wanted to isolate the original raiser hoping they had pocket 10's or Jacks. Certainly the bet out is another option i like, i imagine the original raiser would have folded as it looks like they put in a continuation bet but bish would have called and this scenario leads to a likely tricky turn card, but against 1 opponent i'd still feel very confident of winning. It's likely that i could have given them enough rope on the turn and a value bet on the river to get some more money from the hand so in hindsight this seems maybe the best option to extract a lot from the hand, although it brings higher risk - but it's called gambling at the end of the day!. Being a TAG player the check raise does look extremely strong and scary so it's no surprise they folded. In this spot i wouldn't always c/r, for example if it was against 1 opponent i'd flat call the bet extremely confident that no matter of the turn i'd be ahead (unless they were going OTT with AKd and caught a diamond). I welcome all thoughts on how the hand could have been played, including the call on the flop, but i personally wouldn't be able to call in that situation with there being too many possible scare cards on the turn. As an aside, earlier that day i flopped trips 3 times within the space of 40mins and slow played them, allowing cheap turn cards - all 3 times the turn hit someones pocket pair giving them a FH and i lost about $80 so that spurred me to not give any cheap draws which is another reason i raised. Sorry that's not very concise; everyone has made very good points so i'm trying to cover everything ;)

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

I would have led out with a pot sized bet hoping for any kind or raise behind whereby I would jam the pot. If they both flat called so be it but I think a big pair is likely to raise to find out where he is. I would never just call against 2 opponents on that board in the situation you find yourself in. Your check raise was good enough to take down the pot and did scream of uber strength so unlikely to get any more action.

i agree:ok even if you only get a call/callers instead of the raise you really want ,you have built the pot nicely for the turn. if no danger cards show, a overpair will likely call/raise any bet you make because your hand is a bit better hidden. i also agree with taking the pot down there rather than trying to get value from the turn and river. with that many possible out cards and two players in the pot nearly half the pack is a potential danger,if any of those cards drop then you dont know where you are. unless someone bets massively if one of those cards does hit ,you have to call really with 10 outs for your boat/quads and the possability you are already still ahead ,thats a situation i dont want to get into as it can cost you a fair bit. i dont think its worth hoping for a flush to hit as you hit your boat;) with one out on the turn and two outs possible on the river its pretty unlikely that its going to happen ,nice but improbable:loon.so i wouldnt be banking too much on it.

[BAM]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

Is poker ever that clear cut black and white that you can say never call here? That was my only point. I don't disagree with you per se.

To me that hits the nail on the head Alun and sometimes threads like this just highlight the fragility of the strategy section. For a start we only have a fraction of the information here, for me extracting money from a player will go on what has happened on previous plays 10 20 hands before. Maybe a set up based on their routine play or lack of routine play. I'm sure that if Nade, Rob, Steve'O,yourself and I all sat in the exact same sitation we would have had 3 or 4 different thought processes on how we would want the hand to progress from this point. To answer your question Nade there is not an optimum play here, your play should be determined by more than just cards, you need to play the players more in cash games and also second guess what you think they think you might be holding :\. One thing I very rarely do in cash is enter a pot with a call, if you want to get involved in a play regardless of your holding raise it up thus disguising your hand further. BTW Rob/Alun What constitutes a fish I have always wondered this? Is it just a belitting term for a beginner/improving player? or is it a LAG? or none of the above? I'm really not sure I have been called a fish many a time at the tables, usually after I have just outplayed someone, as I am sure many of us have but I can never work out why and what they mean. Please help me out as this keeps me awake at night.

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

i agree:ok even if you only get a call/callers instead of the raise you really want ,you have built the pot nicely for the turn. if no danger cards show, a overpair will likely call/raise any bet you make because your hand is a bit better hidden.

I don't understand all the deal about your hand being hidden, it does depend how you play I s'pose, but I'm check raising a draw on this kind of board a lot of the time too. Overcards and flush draw I check raise, nut straight draw I might check raise, nut flush draw I will often check raise; hence the ball is in their court whether I have a draw or a genuine hand like the top set Nade has. However, if you are only the kind of player who check raises with a made hand, that changes things. Hence me stressing earlier why your awareness of your image at the table is important. As for what a fish constitutes. I tend to regard it as a kind of calling station, ie loose weak. Someone who calls down light but doesn't show aggression much, eg. calls down with flush draw on flop and turn with no odds and fold to small river bet.

[AlunB]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board fish (fĭsh) n., pl. fish or fish·es.

1. Any of numerous poor poker players who consitently misplay their hands:
2. Players new to the game who don't fully understand what they are doing.
3. Players of some experience who constantly make bad decisions.

[*]A term of abuse applied generally regardless of ability - usually by a player who has just lost a pot. [*]An informal term of endearment between poker players. [*]Informal. A person, especially one considered deficient in something: a poor fish.

That 4th one is actually a dictionary definition of a fish btw. LAG would be an adjective rather than a noun, so for example a bad LAG would be known as a LAGfish. :ok

[BAM]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

1. applied generally regardless of ability - usually by a player who has just lost a pot.
2. An informal term of endearment between poker players.

I'm probably the above fishes then :clap Thanks Alun the font of all knowledge as always, you might put that chemistry degree to use one day.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

I don't understand all the deal about your hand being hidden, it does depend how you play I s'pose, but I'm check raising a draw on this kind of board a lot of the time too. Overcards and flush draw I check raise, nut straight draw I might check raise, nut flush draw I will often check raise; hence the ball is in their court whether I have a draw or a genuine hand like the top set Nade has. However, if you are only the kind of player who check raises with a made hand, that changes things. Hence me stressing earlier why your awareness of your image at the table is important. As for what a fish constitutes. I tend to regard it as a kind of calling station, ie loose weak. Someone who calls down light but doesn't show aggression much, eg. calls down with flush draw on flop and turn with no odds and fold to small river bet.

yeah i could see your point vs one player, but against 2 players its bloody dodgy to check raise with a draw or even a bluff etc. a lot of the value in the check raise on a draw is that a large percentage of the time the opponent folds ,the rest of the time your winning about a third of the hands they call. with 2 players its more likely someone will call ,so surely it at least is becoming a -ev move or a 50/50. i can only think of one situation i would check raise vs multiple opponents and that with the absolute nuts on the flop and good action after me. i would say that a fish is a player that uses the same strategy over and over ,making it obvious to those around them how to counteract their play or by their actions show absolutely no comprehension of the game :ok so calling stations are obviously in,easy safe money to be had. also ultra aggressive players that cant help but over raise pretty much every hand from any position are usually easy to pick off as well,everybody needs aggression but every hand becomes a bit obvious and pretty easy to counteract. then there's the real simpletons ,calling down with absolutely nothing etc. if anybody has seen the vid of neville southall playing he fits nicely into this catagory:loon

[Nade]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

One thing I very rarely do in cash is enter a pot with a call, if you want to get involved in a play regardless of your holding raise it up thus disguising your hand further. BTW Rob/Alun What constitutes a fish I have always wondered this? Is it just a belitting term for a beginner/improving player? or is it a LAG? or none of the above? I'm really not sure I have been called a fish many a time at the tables, usually after I have just outplayed someone, as I am sure many of us have but I can never work out why and what they mean. Please help me out as this keeps me awake at night.

Firstly, my style is to see flops as cheaply as possible with any pairs below jacks, hoping to flop a disguised set against a couple of opponents so i can get paid. Also i don't like re-raising pre flop out of position with marginal hands as at this level people who call 1 bet will a re-raise and so it's just building a pot which it's still a toss up as to whether you'll be ahead post flop or not. Instead i like to keep the pots fairly small pre flop unless i have a premium hand and then re-assess the situation on the flop depending on what it brings, stacks, opponents etc. knowing that i can get away from a hand if necessary even if i hit so for my game calling pre-flop is not a problem. As for the 'fish' debate ;) I class anyone who chases a lot, plays a lot of marginal hands, overplays top pair without strong kickers, generally as robsterling says - a loose weak player.

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

yeah i could see your point vs one player, but against 2 players its bloody dodgy to check raise with a draw or even a bluff etc. a lot of the value in the check raise on a draw is that a large percentage of the time the opponent folds ,the rest of the time your winning about a third of the hands they call. with 2 players its more likely someone will call ,so surely it at least is becoming a -ev move or a 50/50. i can only think of one situation i would check raise vs multiple opponents and that with the absolute nuts on the flop and good action after me.

Against two opponents yes I will check raise a good draw there with good reads on them. If I know one is a "fish" who has a high percentage for calling c-bets, if I know the original raiser c-bets a high percentage of flops and I have a strong draw and a good (as in not too agressive, showed down strong hands, check raised before and showed down strong) image then yes I will. If you only check raise with the nuts, thats really bad balancing of your ranges and too predictable, an observant opponent who has played a fair bit with you before can easily fold his 2 pair, over pair, etc. If you have an accurate estimation of your opponents range, your image, your fold equity and your win equity, you can can definitely check raise a draw here. To call it "bloody dodgy" and saying you would only do it with the nuts is akin to saying "I'm playing my cards only", if you are representing the nuts but in fact have a draw with decent win and fold equity this is a good move and also balances your range. I think I would want to know moer about the opponents than Nade did here, but when I play I generally always have tracker, hud, etc - it's a major advantage when used properly.

[robsterling]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

Firstly, my style is to see flops as cheaply as possible with any pairs below jacks, hoping to flop a disguised set against a couple of opponents so i can get paid. Also i don't like re-raising pre flop out of position with marginal hands as at this level people who call 1 bet will a re-raise and so it's just building a pot which it's still a toss up as to whether you'll be ahead post flop or not. Instead i like to keep the pots fairly small pre flop unless i have a premium hand and then re-assess the situation on the flop depending on what it brings, stacks, opponents etc. knowing that i can get away from a hand if necessary even if i hit so for my game calling pre-flop is not a problem. As for the 'fish' debate ;) I class anyone who chases a lot, plays a lot of marginal hands, overplays top pair without strong kickers, generally as robsterling says - a loose weak player.

I think your preflop game seems a bit rigid really, you need to be reraising based on your opponents opening range. Set mining, especially with a pair as big as 99 is not profitable as you will not have good enough implied odds versus a late position raiser to call to hit a set and fold everything else - as they will often just be raising rubbish like J10o for instance and aren't gonna pay you off on the 1 in 8 times you hit. Having a good aggressive preflop game especially at 6max will make you a lot of money imo.

[BAM]

Re: Flopped nuts on tricky board

Firstly, my style is to see flops as cheaply as possible with any pairs below jacks, hoping to flop a disguised set against a couple of opponents so i can get paid. Also i don't like re-raising pre flop out of position with marginal hands as at this level people who call 1 bet will a re-raise and so it's just building a pot which it's still a toss up as to whether you'll be ahead post flop or not. Instead i like to keep the pots fairly small pre flop unless i have a premium hand and then re-assess the situation on the flop depending on what it brings, stacks, opponents etc. knowing that i can get away from a hand if necessary even if i hit so for my game calling pre-flop is not a problem.

Fair enough I'm not going to tell you how to play your cards thats for you to decide but a few points - it is not a marginal hand seeing cheap flops in cash games will cost you dearly the further up the ladder you move, it is a weak play keeping pots small is more tourney play than cash play, you have to be more aggressive and this helps with tricky decisions in later streets, which was the whole point of this thread