robilaruk Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 this is where I struggle in MTT's so any help appreciated there are about 9 to go before we hit ITM and the level finishes/break is in about 2 mins The CO makes a min raise and the button calls - with the antes, the pot is 5200 and its 800 more to call - however i will be OOP and 800 is a major chunk out of my stack ( I have 6076 after posting BB and ante) so who is calling and who is folding? and why please (am assuming no one is shoving? feel free to diasgree!) cheers Damo 400.00/800.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 19 September 2007 21:04:44 $1,000 GTD REBUY (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: robilaruk (6956.00) Seat 2: gittachen (16399.00) Seat 3: Bronki (37280.00) Seat 4: thowi1337 (12770.00) Seat 5: Jebora (55651.00) Seat 6: stealthy (21118.00) Seat 7: frann (15077.00) Seat 8: cdrik77 (6655.00) Seat 10: katarzis (33363.00) katarzis post SB 400.00 robilaruk post BB 800.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [10d, Qd] *** Bet Round 1 *** ALL FOLD frann Raise to 1600.00 cdrik77 Call 1600.00 katarzis Fold Hero?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold I would call. You're getting about 7/1 on the hand to see a flop which is great value for me, also if you fold with the blinds going up soon even if you go all in in the next orbit you would be in the horrible position (which i'm in all the time) where the bigger stacks will call you with really marginal hands. It really wouldn't be that much more than the blinds and they'd still have a big stack so with all this in mind i think you have to call even though i really don't like Q10 generally in this situation i would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold I have exactly the same thought process as Nate. (Which may well have him reaching for the alcohol!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold definate call for me:ok although q 10 isn't great the pot odds are good. also you are likely to get paid if you do hit as there should be a few facecards on the board:nana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold It's a call for me as well - if the flop isn't favourable, you've still got enough chips to fight back with, but there are lots of ways of improving your hand to such an extent that you stand a real chance of trebling up. Too good an opportunity to miss for the sake of only another 800 chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweetypie05 Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Call for me... if the flush/straight doesn't come or I don't hit the flop hard I'm out of there. Odds are too good to pass up though and lots of possible outs so gotta call pre-flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Most of the time I'd fold as this is just the sort of hand that gets me into trouble! :wall If a Queen appears on the flop where are you lying and what do you bet?:unsure The whole stack could go! :cry Nah, me being a negative bugga, I'd fold most of the time! :ok I like to get involved in pots when I feel I'm ahead pre-flop! TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold I would also pass here. You are out of position with an average hand. You are probably in possession of the worst hand at the moment. Unless you hit the flop hard, what do you do next? If you check, one of the others will bet and you'll be forced to fold. If you bet out, you may elicit two folds, but if one of them has a piece of the flop, and calls/raises, you are looking at losing possibly all your chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Most of the time I'd fold as this is just the sort of hand that gets me into trouble! :wall If a Queen appears on the flop where are you lying and what do you bet?:unsure The whole stack could go! :cry Nah, me being a negative bugga, I'd fold most of the time! :ok I like to get involved in pots when I feel I'm ahead pre-flop! TQM There's being negative and there's being negative TQM, the value you're getting on this hand is far too great an opportunity to pass up at this time in the tourn, but i understand what you mean about the difficulty post flop. This is a big area of my game i've improved over the last 2/3 months is post flop play and that includes knowing exactly what flop i want to be hitting with certain hands. For example 7,8 suited connector in the past i'd hit top pair and get into a whole world of trouble but now it's at least 2 pair i want or i'm insta mucking the hand (generally, but depending up situation etc.) Post Flop With something like a suited Q10 i'm looking for a straight or flush draw at least, if not then top pair 10 is ok in the situation above. If the flop comes Q high rainbow then it's all about your read on your opponents - are they really tight? If they bet out strong on the flop then it would be very tough to call/push. One thing to consider is if the flop comes Q high rainbow ,check, and see what the other 2 do. If the initial raiser puts in a weak looking bet and the next person folds then you can feel fairly confident and push as this look uber strong with the check raise they may well fold QJ think you have better. The problem with checking is they may check as well (unlikely) but then K or A will come and you're definitely toast then :( Will wait with baited breath though for the continuation of the hand proper and make up my mind then :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Nade, I agree that you are getting excellent value for your next 800, but this does represent nearly one seventh of Damo's remaining stack. If he has 10K left, I would call and see what the flop brings. Here, if you call and fold on the flop, your stack is down to just over 5K with the small blind next. What flop could you hope to see that would leave you in a position to confidently bet out? You would need four to a straight or a flush, a ten high rainbow flop, or a Queen and a Ten on the flop. Without doing the maths, this appears like a very small percentage of potential flops. With other flops and the right read you may force two folds with a bet, but the other two are likely to have either a non premium pair or two high cards, and there are few flops that will miss them so terribly that they will fold to your bet. Good thread this Damo:clap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted September 21, 2007 Author Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Nade, Good thread this Damo:clap ta :ok it looks like an easy call, but this is the situation i find the most difficult to assess (as it appears some others here do). I am really enjoying what people are putting up here, lots of good arguements either way, am looking forward to few more posts (hopefully) am just wondering what folks think the other 2 players might have given what has happened? Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Hero calls! :ok Flop comes 10 J Q rainbow - hero hits 2 pair!:nana Frann has K 9 for the straight :cry cdrik77 has Q J for 2 pair also!:cry All the chips go in with everyone thinking they're ahead! Turn is 2 of spades!:lol River is Q cdrik77 wins with QQQ J J Hero loses with QQQ 10 10 Just a guess!:lol TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold i think frann looks either pretty strong or pretty weak maybe aces or kings trying to get a caller or mediocre hand that they are trying to steal cheaply with. have they always bet like this or is this the first min raise? cdrick has aj, kq something like that i reckon. if he had a monster he would have reraised a bit i think:unsurebut he has a ok hand at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold am just wondering what folks think the other 2 players might have given what has happened? Damo I'm not convinced frann the original raiser has anything special, the min raise from the cut off is a very standard play imo they're either weak and it's a cowardly blind steal attempt or very strong and they're building the pot. Maybe pocket 5's? I'll go for a small pocket pair :unsure. Cdrik only calls the raise and so i can't see them having a monster. more likely something like 10J suited and they're hoping to take the pot down on the flop with position :unsure. Without more info on either player i'll take a stab at these with the risk of sounding stupid as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold cant be bad if i've got the same read as the bpp:nana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted September 23, 2007 Author Share Posted September 23, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold thanks al for the replies - I did inded call for the fantastic pot odds so now what? I know what I did as it seemed obvious to me but would be interested to know what others think Ta Damo ***** Hand 759404526 ***** 400.00/800.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 19 September 2007 21:04:44 $1,000 GTD REBUY (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: robilaruk (6956.00) Seat 2: gittachen (16399.00) Seat 3: Bronki (37280.00) Seat 4: thowi1337 (12770.00) Seat 5: Jebora (55651.00) Seat 6: stealthy (21118.00) Seat 7: frann (15077.00) Seat 8: cdrik77 (6655.00) Seat 10: katarzis (33363.00) katarzis post SB 400.00 robilaruk post BB 800.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [10d, Qd] *** Bet Round 1 *** frann Raise to 1600.00 cdrik77 Call 1600.00 robilaruk Call 1600.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [8d, 10s, Jd] *** Bet Round 2 *** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold I would go all in. It's probably the best flop you can hope for - mid pair, flush draw, gut shot straight flush draw. You have a great chance of winning if someone calls with the hand you have made and draws you have, but more importantly you have a chance of taking down a 5k pot to nearly double your stack if they fold - as at the moment you only have a pair of 10's - and that's only possible by going all in. No point betting out say 2k on a draw as if the turn comes an Ace of clubs then you're pretty much guaranteed to be behind and pot committed to a pair of 10's. Push for me, personally i can see no other option, but i may be wrong.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold I think I'd check :\ In terms of made hands all you have is a middle pair of 10's and you're up against 2 opponents. I admit that there are great straight, flush and straight flush draws available to you, but, currently all you have is middle pair. If you take this pot down here and now with an All In bet then you'll have about 10K chips and you'll still be a short stack on the table. If you bet, say 2K - 2.5K you are basically pot committed, anything less than that gives them pot odds to call even if they've missed the flop. I'd like to see what the others do before having enough information to make my play. I would not rule out check raising if someone made a small/weak looking bet, e.g. if Frann bet another 1600 and cdrik folded I'd be very tempted coming over the top. If Frann went AI and cdrik called I'd be out of there. Folding here would leave you with about 5BB's which isn't much but you have a little time to find a better hand/position to shove with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold I think I'd check :\ In terms of made hands all you have is a middle pair of 10's and you're up against 2 opponents. I admit that there are great straight, flush and straight flush draws available to you, but, currently all you have is middle pair. If you take this pot down here and now with an All In bet then you'll have about 10K chips and you'll still be a short stack on the table. If you bet, say 2K - 2.5K you are basically pot committed, anything less than that gives them pot odds to call even if they've missed the flop. I'd like to see what the others do before having enough information to make my play. I would not rule out check raising if someone made a small/weak looking bet, e.g. if Frann bet another 1600 and cdrik folded I'd be very tempted coming over the top. If Frann went AI and cdrik called I'd be out of there. Folding here would leave you with about 5BB's which isn't much but you have a little time to find a better hand/position to shove with. Well, well, well.:ok EXACTLY as I'd play it DP! :clap:clap:clap I'd love a free look at the turn, but any raise and I'm folding! :cry:cry TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius Marcellus Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold And there was me thinking it was questions on music :loon :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold i think i would follow nade's lead and push all in on the flop. with only about 2 more rounds of blinds left its getting near to the point when you will have to push ,and this looks like a pretty good chance to steal the pot while you can still push them off . that said i would sometimes check raise but i dont like doing this when i only have the same amount as in the pot. anybody trying to take the pot is likely to bet a amount that will pretty much put me all in or make it difficult for them to fold if i do raise them. if they bet 2400 with a ok hand they will nearly always call the extra 2800 if i go all in ,so the power of the check raise is gone. much will depend on your table image,if you have been very tight that may be enough to scare off the other 2 players ,if not you still have a fair few outs vs most hands. also the old position /prize argument comes in to play,do you want to win or just cash . in any non satelite i would nearly always push in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweetypie05 Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold ALL-IN for me... They may have better hands at the moment but don't want to give them free cards on what I would call the ideal flop for this hand! If you check and no diamond comes on the turn, any bet and your probably folding. For me the time is now... shove! Checking would probably mean more chips went into the middle either now or on the turn and a check-raise will not, IMO, push the raiser out of the pot. A final diamond may not come and you could be beaten by KQo or similar so I would like to be the one making the move on this flop. Having called pre-flop looking for flush/straight draws and then getting the perfect flop (IMO) for this how can you check? What would be a good flop for this hand if not the cards that came down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Call for the odds then a definite shove on that flop. A check raise will not be enough to frighten off the big stack who will undoubtedly suck out on you with a runner runner Queen King to go with his rag Ace for a broadway :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold ALL-IN for me... They may have better hands at the moment but don't want to give them free cards on what I would call the ideal flop for this hand! If you check and no diamond comes on the turn, any bet and your probably folding. For me the time is now... shove! Checking would probably mean more chips went into the middle either now or on the turn and a check-raise will not, IMO, push the raiser out of the pot. A final diamond may not come and you could be beaten by KQo or similar so I would like to be the one making the move on this flop. Having called pre-flop looking for flush/straight draws and then getting the perfect flop (IMO) for this how can you check? What would be a good flop for this hand if not the cards that came down? Whilst this is a very good flop for the hole cards I'd disagree that it is the perfect flop. All you have made is second pair. Had you actually made the perfect flop (Ad, Kd, Jd), what would you're action be? For me I'd be check raising. To me check raising shows far more strenght than a shove. A shove in this situation has an air of desperation (which with second pair it probably is).:unsure Don't get me wrong, the AI is not a bad play, I just feel that the check is a better one (IMHO). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Although I went for a fold pre-flop, I think you may aswell go all-in here. That flop will not have missed them both, and you are still probably behind to one of them, but the sheer number of outs you have would lead me all-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold thanks all for the responses - I can't see how that flop could have been much better for me (than the royal) - so I shoved with my pair, striaght, flush and straight flush draw - I must have loads of outs here and then I realised why Fran only min raised....... Can't believe I missed that old PF min raise trick - it never occured to me at all :$ Damo *** Flop(Board): *** : [8d, 10s, Jd] robilaruk All-in 5356.00 frann Raise to 10712.00 cdrik77 All-in 5055.00 frann [Ad, Ah] cdrik77 [Ks, Qs] robilaruk [10d, Qd] (ps - Happy now Nade??? :) :) :)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Had you checked, seen Frann go AI and get called by cdrik - would you have called? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold Had you checked' date=' seen Frann go AI and get called by cdrik - would you have called?[/quote'] oh god yes - wouldn't have even thought about it easy shove and/or call for me - monster hand with all my outs Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold So frann was uber strong in the end, was a bit of a 50/50 which one and the other guy had the range i put him in, but the decisions you and i would have made all the way were right imo, just one of those things and on another day you'll punish a guy playing aces so weakly :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted September 27, 2007 Author Share Posted September 27, 2007 Re: Pop Quiz (part XXXIV) - Call or Fold So frann was uber strong in the end' date=' was a bit of a 50/50 which one and the other guy had the range i put him in, but the decisions you and i would have made all the way were right imo, just one of those things and on another day you'll punish a guy playing aces so weakly :ok[/quote'] who's to say I didn't punish the guy ;) *** Turn(Board): *** : [8d, 10s, Jd, Kd] *** River(Board): *** : [8d, 10s, Jd, Kd, Jc] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 21642.00 robilaruk [10d, Qd] Flush to the king Win: 21642.00 got my leg up just at the right time - finished 8th in the end playing a stop and go with KQ on the BB to a guy with A6o who had no hand no draw on a 10 high flop and called AI for 60% of his stack :eyes Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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