slapdash Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 You're short-stacked late in a STT. You'll either shove or fold. With which hands should you shove? To give a specific scenario, suppose you have 1000 chips left in a 10-player STT (50/30/20 prize structure). There are four players left, and the remaining 14,000 chips are roughly equally divided between them. You're on the button with blinds of 100/200, and UTG folds. With which hands does shoving give you higher tournament equity than folding? As well as being interested in people's views, it should be possible to do a calculation, assuming the Independent Chip Model gives a reasonable value for your tournament equity. But of course, it depends on which hands the blinds would call with if you do go all-in. Obviously this will vary from player to player, but if I classified hands into groups: A. Would definitely call. B. Would probably call (about 75% calls). C. Maybe, maybe not (about 50% calls). D. Probably wouldn't call (about 25% calls). E. Definitely wouldn't call. then I could experiment with different profiles for the opponents to see how much difference it makes. Would anybody like to give their guess as to how to divide the hands into groups A-E? Assume a $10 or $20 buy-in STT if it makes a difference. If I do get around to doing this, I'll try to do it so that it's easy to vary the conditions (stack sizes, etc.). Or does anybody know of a similar calculation that has already been done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? Is this about me? Or am I being vain?:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 20, 2007 Author Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? Is this about me? Or am I being vain?:lol Nope! :lol Never found out what you shoved with, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? ***** Hand 622572166 ***** 50.00/100.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:43:09 PM STT $10 NL (Real/Tournament) Seat 1: jolyka1 (1725.00) Seat 2: wizard70 (2500.00) Seat 3: mamelix2 (1905.00) Seat 5: sral911 (995.00) Seat 6: slapdash1 (2435.00) Seat 8: Michel30 (3430.00) Seat 9: mvlj (1065.00) Seat 10: mcguirpa (945.00) mamelix2 post SB 50.00 sral911 post BB 100.00 ** Deal ** jolyka1 [N/A, N/A] wizard70 [N/A, N/A] mamelix2 [N/A, N/A] sral911 [N/A, N/A] slapdash1 [N/A, N/A] Michel30 [N/A, N/A] mvlj [N/A, N/A] mcguirpa [Ac, Qc] *** Bet Round 1 *** slapdash1 Fold Michel30 Call 100.00 mvlj All-in 1065.00 mcguirpa All-in 945.00 jolyka1 Fold wizard70 Fold mamelix2 Fold sral911 Fold Michel30 Fold *** Flop(Board): *** : [8h, 10h, 5d] *** Turn(Board): *** : [8h, 10h, 5d, 7d] *** River(Board): *** : [8h, 10h, 5d, 7d, 10c] *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2140.00 jolyka1 Fold Win: 0.00 wizard70 Fold Win: 0.00 mamelix2 Fold Win: 0.00 sral911 Fold Win: 0.00 slapdash1 Fold Win: 0.00 Michel30 Fold Win: 0.00 mvlj [Js, Jh] Two pair jacks and tens Win: 2140.00 mcguirpa [Ac, Qc] Pair of tens Win: 0.00 I pretty much knew I was on a coinflip, and at that stage IMO the call was a no-brainer. I'd have shoved too If I'd been first to act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 20, 2007 Author Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? I pretty much knew I was on a coinflip' date=' and at that stage IMO the call was a no-brainer. I'd have shoved too If I'd been first to act.[/quote'] Fair enough. Shoving would have been even more of a no-brainer than calling. I'm more interested in which weaker hands should shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? Fair enough. Shoving would have been even more of a no-brainer than calling. I'm more interested in which weaker hands should shove. A. Would definitely call. Pocket Pair 7s and up AK, AQ, AJ B. Would probably call (about 75% calls). A10, A9 C. Maybe, maybe not (about 50% calls). A7-A8, pocket 5s and 6s, suited connectors 10-J and upwards D. Probably wouldn't call (about 25% calls). pocket 2s, 3s, 4s, suited connectors E. Definitely wouldn't call. owt else. My reasoning being that at this stage it's primarily a game of getting high cards or decent PP and putting your money on the table. No chance for really playing a hand, representing something you don't have, making continuation bets or drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted May 20, 2007 Author Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? A. Would definitely call. Pocket Pair 7s and up AK, AQ, AJ B. Would probably call (about 75% calls). A10, A9 C. Maybe, maybe not (about 50% calls). A7-A8, pocket 5s and 6s, suited connectors 10-J and upwards D. Probably wouldn't call (about 25% calls). pocket 2s, 3s, 4s, suited connectors E. Definitely wouldn't call. owt else. How about KQo, KJs, KJo or other hands with two high cards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimar21 Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? Does an M of 8 make you tighter than an M of 4? Or would you shove the same hands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? any pocket pair, Ak, AQ, AJ A 10 (if suited) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffers Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? Any pair 7s upwards, any suited connectors 56 upwards, AK, AQ, AJ, KJ. Not KQ tho :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? How about KQo' date=' KJs, KJo or other hands with two high cards?[/quote'] I realised I'd forgot about them after I posted it. probably lump them in the 50% category, suited or not. K-J, K-10, Q-10 etc. etc. It would depend on how tight the table was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? Does an M of 8 make you tighter than an M of 4? Or would you shove the same hands? If you have an M of 8 than you have more time than if your M is 4 - you therefore have the opportunity to wait for better hands .... as your M hits 4, you are more desperate, have less time and will get involved with worse hands.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Re: With which hands should you shove? this is calling for the blinds assuming the button shortie shoves? in which case as the BB I would call with (I'll put 's' for suited, 'o' for off suit, otherwise its both if no suffix) A any PP, AK-A8 KQ KJs B all other Ax KJo K10 QJs C K9 QJo, Q10s Q9s D&E - nothing else I would call with as the SB I would not call I would raise to isolate with all A hands A 88+, AK-A9, KQ KJs B any other PP, any other Ax, KJo these I would call with and fold to a BB reshove C K10 QJ Q10s call only & fold to a BB reshove D&E I would fold everything else does this help? Damo A. Would definitely call. B. Would probably call (about 75% calls). C. Maybe, maybe not (about 50% calls). D. Probably wouldn't call (about 25% calls). E. Definitely wouldn't call. Or does anybody know of a similar calculation that has already been done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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