Yet another what would you do!!

[morlspin]

In tonights Heads up round 2 game between myself and Spurman, we were around 5 mins into the game when the following hand came up..,,, Blinds are 10/20 with 5k chip stacks. Heres what happened........i said i wouldnt have called if i was on the end of my all in, but a number of people have said he did the right thing...... I lost the game, and fair play, he hit and he won, i have no hard feelings at all, maybe a lil miffed but hey, who wouldnt be. Have a look, and decide if you would have made the call when Spurman did.......leave a reason if you would, as it should help me with my game to know what others think. Once you make your mind up....PLEASE VOTE IN THE POLL ABOVE TOO

[slick mick]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! You played it right he got lucky.

[Jaded]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! As Pene said earlier, pair of A's is massive HU - I'd call.

[msaban]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! yeah unlucky

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! I'd fold that. 4 cards up it's still only 1 pair with no kicker. I wouldn't think you had a better A, mainly from the call from the SB pre flop. From the betting on the turn I'd think you were limping with a good hand so I'd probably think you've got trips. So early in the game, I can't see any reason to call an all in with top pair:unsure.

[SpurMan]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! A little context, and my thought process: Damo, 'crap raise PF' was cos I wanted to show I had sommat, but anything 3 or 4 times BB was up to that point, basically always folded. Was really cagey up to that point. Neither me nor morl were more than 100 ahead at any point up to then from what I recall. After that, my thinking is as specified here by Pene: Originally Posted by Penelopeys Because... what are the odds for a better hand against me??? Only 7 cards dealt from the deck... 3 aces out??? Nah.... Maybe you hit a set... but if you had... you wouldnt go all in on me... you have less than that... Maybe 2 pair... but your huge reraise tells me you're trying to scare me off... I read a massive reraise to scare, maybe with morl on 2nd pair, worried about the Ace, and on the steal to get the lead in what had been a very cagey game. A smooth call here and I would have been more worried. No PF raise means I am certain I am ahead, so regardless of kicker, I'm calling. And one lucky river later..............

[morlspin]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! people vote too pls......

[Mr Intensity]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

I read a massive reraise to scare, maybe with morl on 2nd pair, worried about the Ace, and on the steal to get the lead in what had been a very cagey game. A smooth call here and I would have been more worried. No PF raise means I am certain I am ahead, so regardless of kicker, I'm calling. And one lucky river later..............

I don't buy that, so early in the game, it's clear you have something by the raise to 600 - don't think many people would go all in with worse than what you had mate:unsure

[AJ]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

I'd fold that. 4 cards up it's still only 1 pair with no kicker. I wouldn't think you had a better A, mainly from the call from the SB pre flop. From the betting on the turn I'd think you were limping with a good hand so I'd probably think you've got trips. So early in the game, I can't see any reason to call an all in with top pair

In 100% agreement with Mr I here. Top pair with a dreadful kicker isn't somethign to go all in with, I'd put Spurman on either a set or 2 pair. Best case scenario I'd have him on AA with a decent kicker, got you coverd anyway you look at it You put a very large bet of 600 in, it didn't scare him at all. Instant fold for me. although sometimes you've gotta take a chance, well done

[jeffers]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! Oops, I voted Call and meant Fold - no way I'm calling an all in this early in the game with a pair of Aces and a 4 kicker - it's madness imo. For morl to go over the top all in, screams two pair or even more.:ok

[Guest gazza271]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

Oops, I voted Call and meant Fold - no way I'm calling an all in this early in the game with a pair of Aces and a 4 kicker - it's madness imo. For morl to go over the top all in, screams two pair or even more.:ok

Its a fold for me as well, agree with jeffers statement here :ok

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! There is no debate here, im very very suprised anybody is saying its a call at all. When you see someone 'wake up' on the turn its usually a big hand that they were slowplaying. The top pair got check raised on the turn then re-re-raised all in. Its almost without doubt a minimum of 2 pair. Id be shocked to just see top pair with the way the betting goes. And even then your beat with your kicker unless its A2 specifically. Some people are talking about the odds of the top pair being up against a better hand HU - its inconsequential these sorts of arguments when you have witnessed a hand play out with the betting patterns. If you look at a board of A863 and are asked is A4 likely to be the best hand HU, you say yes which is fine. But when presented with the fact the flop went check/check then youve been checkraised on the turn then re-re raised all in it kind of paints a different light on matters. I dont see someone putting in 250bb HU on a bluff, period and certainly not in that manner of play. And all Top pair crap kicker is beating is a bluff here. Fold it and play on with your 4.3k no damage done. Im not having a go in any way, learn from it deep stack poker like this is not about all ins with hands like top pair crap kicker.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! Again i am not picking in a harsh way at all merely making points, you cant just say things like this

As Pene said earlier, pair of A's is massive HU - I'd call.

You have to consider what the other guy has not just what YOU have here. A hand like this is not a massive hand AT ALL in a HU game of this manner at this stage of the game. Poker is aaaaall about the stacks. Im a cash game player used to 100bb stacks, this was 250bb and I guarantee id be laying down AK here it would so rarely be infront.

[Tax_Monkey]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! I'd fold. To my mind the 600 raise post turn asked a serious question and was answered with an all-in, that tells you your top pair crap kicker is beat. As does the min raise then all-in.

[Jaded]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! Fair enough Muse. For me, though, and this might be because of my inexperience HU, an all-in like Morl's SCREAMS that he doesn't want to be called. I'd have put him on maybe K8, Q8, or something else along the lines of small pair and decent kicker. Morl, why did you raise all-in at that point?

[guesswest]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! A pair of aces (with no kicker) is not massive or even close to it when you're talking about committing 250 BB's. Not to mention the fact that we have have two more rounds of betting for information, including an all-in representing a massive overbet, it's virtually guaranteed you're behind - I just can't imagine a single hand A4 is beating at this point. It does look like a shut-out bet, but with two flush draws and some straight draws on a shut-out bet is entirely in keeping with a better hand. No way would I call this.

[Hodgey]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! Trying to look at this from the outside: The massive overbet (allin) from Morls looks to me that he is worried about the 2 flush draws on the board. Looking from Spurs point of view he could read that as Morls being on a flush draw and trying to buy the pot there and then - so Spur could figure his Ace is good. Personally, I'd fold after the All In. Totally agree with this:

To my mind the 600 raise post turn asked a serious question and was answered with an all-in' date=' that tells you your top pair crap kicker is beat. As does the min raise then all-in.[/quote'] And it's so early in the game and not much damage done by losing 600 chips, and there will surely be a better spot to get all the chips in.

[the croc]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! i would have folded my aces here,but lets turn this round.morls what would you have done in his shoes??????????

[the croc]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

i would have folded my aces here' date='but lets turn this round.morls what would you have done in his shoes??????????[/quote'] reason i ask is because seeing you play many times i think you would have played it exactly the same way as spur,or even gone all in as soon as the ace hit(bypassing the small bet).

[Penelopeys]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! Jeeeeez... I am very surprised with this... Can't believe anybody would fold AA (even with low kicker) Heads Up.... :loon To me it seems like people are afraid of losing, and therefore they would not play this hand, but fold it... which is very strange!!! ... The only 1 certain way to lose in On-line poker is to be afraid of playing... ...You don't fold top pair HU... you just don't!!!!

[Penelopeys]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

I'd fold. To my mind the 600 raise post turn asked a serious question and was answered with an all-in, that tells you your top pair crap kicker is beat. As does the min raise then all-in.

Couldn't he have had a pair of Kings??? Wouldn't you believe in those HU??

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

...You don't fold top pair HU... you just don't!!!!

LOL you clearly cant have read mine and guesswests amongst others comments here. Its not the end of an STT when youve got 10bb each its totally different when its stacks like this. Guesswests post is spot on btw

[morlspin]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

i would have folded my aces here' date='but lets turn this round.morls what would you have done in his shoes??????????[/quote'] The reason i posted it up, is cos with only 1 pair, all be it, Aces, i couldnt conceiveably call with only a 4 kicker, and no str8 or flush draws I do play ace-rag a lot, but fold a lot too, and to me, the only way i could think of calling there is if i had the str8 draw or the flush draw to fall back on and a kicker over Jack high at the very least Like Tax Monkey said, you made the raise of 600 to either kick me off the pot or see what i was holding, and with the re-raise all in, its an instant fold for me.....however....i was happy u called til the feckin river lol

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! Exactly Morlspin. I dont recall ever even seeing a hand check raise then re-re-raise all in that hasnt been a big hand. The check raise is usually enough!

[guesswest]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

The only 1 certain way to lose in On-line poker is to be afraid of playing... ...You don't fold top pair HU... you just don't!!!!

There's being afraid of playing and there's ignoring information - there are plenty ways of losing a poker game. It's not about how 'good' your hand is, it's about whether you're beating your opponent - and in this case they've told you numerous times they have a better hand, they've practically written it in the sky. I really just can't think of one hand he could have here I'm beating with A4, but I can think of at least a dozen I'm losing to. Is he really gonna bet 250 BB's on a hand worse than top pair here? Edit: Not having a go at Spur btw, is totally different with 15 seconds to think about it - but with the luxury of being able to analyse the hand like we have I can't see how it's callable.

[Tax_Monkey]

Re: Yet another what would you do!!

Couldn't he have had a pair of Kings??? Wouldn't you believe in those HU??

Yes I'd believe in them right up to when the villian went all-in after a A hit the flop. There's a big difference in being brave and suicidal (and on my day I'm perfectly capable of both:lol). I also agree with Guesswest. It's much easier to decide now when you got time to reason it out than it is when your in game with the clock ticking.

[robilaruk]

Re: Yet another what would you do!! its still a poor raise depite the cagey play - u raise 2 BB and he calls, no Ace on the flop and you are OOP all hand - so how would you play it? I would rather raise 4BB and have the villian fold then raise two and be OOP all game - Just my preference Damo

A little context, and my thought process: Damo, 'crap raise PF' was cos I wanted to show I had sommat, but anything 3 or 4 times BB was up to that point, basically always folded. Was really cagey up to that point. Neither me nor morl were more than 100 ahead at any point up to then from what I recall.