erhaab1965 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 4.10 Southwell Clondaw Hero trained by D McCain , RP forcasted as clear 6/4 fav , tipped by some papers. Mid morning priced around 3/1 , Fred Done pushes him to 4/1 . SP 7/2 3rd fav , pulled up. Question, how did the bookies know the horse had no chance ? Are trainers passing on inside info on a regular basis for reward? Jockeys and trainers get crucified when pass on info to gamblers isn't this similar ? Just asking a broad question . Not suggesting anything sinister happened today , everyone knows he writes blogs for Betfair. Just wondering who gets access to certain info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy2shoes Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? Seems a long way to travel if it had no chance, always had D.McCain down as a very honest trainer/Owner. Never saw the race fella, and for some reason it wont load on sportinglife.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? 4.10 Southwell Clondaw Hero trained by D McCain , RP forcasted as clear 6/4 fav , tipped by some papers. Mid morning priced around 3/1 , Fred Done pushes him to 4/1 . SP 7/2 3rd fav , pulled up. Question, how did the bookies know the horse had no chance ? Are trainers passing on inside info on a regular basis for reward? Jockeys and trainers get crucified when pass on info to gamblers isn't this similar ? Just asking a broad question . Not suggesting anything sinister happened today , everyone knows he writes blogs for Betfair. Just wondering who gets access to certain info. Money determines the market, not Info. And I had Clondaw Hero backed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? Money determines the market, not Info. And I had Clondaw Hero backed. OK then, why was there no money for it? It was forecasted at 6/4 and the others at 4/1+. The Horse won a point to point over today's distance and had form figures of 112. What put off everyone from backing it? To be honest I very nearly took some of the 4/1 EW after looking at the form,however I thought something was a bit fishy. I'm not suggesting anything bent happened, just a bit puzzled about the deviation from the forcast price and the fact it pulled up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? OK then, why was there no money for it? It was forecasted at 6/4 and the others at 4/1+. The Horse won a point to point over today's distance and had form figures of 112. What put off everyone from backing it? To be honest I very nearly took some of the 4/1 EW after looking at the form,however I thought something was a bit fishy. I'm not suggesting anything bent happened, just a bit puzzled about the deviation from the forcast price and the fact it pulled up. Why does any horse drift Erhaab? You do realise today was over 3 miles and 1 furlong? He won over 2 miles and 1 furlong in August and was up a full mile in trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? 3 runs back it won a point to point over 3 miles by 8 lengths. I have very little knowledge about translating point to point form to maiden hurdles form. Maybe a lot of punters are more familiar than I am. Like I say not suggesting any sinister happened, I have more questions than answers on this race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? 3 runs back it won a point to point over 3 miles by 8 lengths. I have very little knowledge about translating point to point form to maiden hurdles form. Maybe a lot of punters are more familiar than I am. Like I say not suggesting any sinister happened, I have more questions than answers on this race. Erhaab, I once backed a horse at 6/1 and he won at an SP of 20/1. Of course people have information, but look at the other side of the coin. Ballymoat and Electric Tiger were well backed all day, when this happens something has to give way in the market. I do know for a fact that McCain knew that horse would not win today, but I wouldn't go as far to say that he passes this info on to bookmakers for backhanders, that would be absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted September 5, 2013 Author Share Posted September 5, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? Jimmy says it's a long way to travel if it had no chance and you say you knew for a fact it wouldn't win. I highly considered it as a bet but decided it wouldn't win based on odds. How did the bookies decide so early on it wouldn't win? I know they must have taken less money ,but then the question becomes, how did punters know he wouldn't win? Was there punters laying ut all day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binchy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? Aidy, feel free to tell me to mind my own, but how did you know for a fact that the trainer knew the horse wouldn't win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidymac Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? I backed Clondaw Hero yesterday, but as soon as I saw the drift I knew I was on a loser. A horse that goes from clear favourite to a weak 3rd favourite, the writing was on the wall. Trainer's know their horses abilities, they watch them day after day and the way that horse folded yesterday along with the drift, of course I don't know for a fact but it is extremely likely McCain knew. And I would presume others knew it wouldn't win aswell and many had a good lay on Betfair, thats the way racing works these days unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binchy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? Thanks for explaining, from the way you said I thought you had some sort of inside info but I understand what you meant now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lodge Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 I have to agree with Aidy, if that horse was thought to have a decent chance of winning by the yard it wouldn't have gone off at that price. I doubt the bookies had inside info, there clever enough to read into the fact that no money had come in for it and it didn't have the chance that its form would have suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erhaab1965 Posted October 24, 2013 Author Share Posted October 24, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? 4.10 Southwell Clondaw Hero trained by D McCain , RP forcasted as clear 6/4 fav , tipped by some papers. Mid morning priced around 3/1 , Fred Done pushes him to 4/1 . SP 7/2 3rd fav , pulled up. Question, how did the bookies know the horse had no chance ? Are trainers passing on inside info on a regular basis for reward? Jockeys and trainers get crucified when pass on info to gamblers isn't this similar ? Just asking a broad question . Not suggesting anything sinister happened today , everyone knows he writes blogs for Betfair. Just wondering who gets access to certain info. I'm not a regular punter and I don't visit the bookies on a daily basis so I'm not too up to speed with the enhanced odds some bookies offer on a daily basis. Yesterday Betfred pushed out Annie Confidential in the 450 at Ludlow from 5/2 to 7/2. She had 3 runs this year coming 3-3-2, the latest about 3 weeks ago beaten under 2 length. The Racing Post had her as the forecasted 9/4 favourite. Her eventual SP was 5/1 and she was pulled up ,very similar to the example I gave last month. I know it was an amateur race, but how did the bookies know she wasn't going to win? It could be coincidence that the times I take note of the market pushes they all run abysmally, maybe the days I don't go into the bookies they perform better or win. Are there any regular punters on here that follow the results of market drifters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macmuck Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? Also. there is the business of travel and of how horses react in the paddock etc. They ar'nt machines, which it is easy to forget sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbugger Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? I absolutely hate a drifter. Yeah they win from time to time but when a fancied runner drifts badly, those wins are a rarity. Like Aidy said, you do sometimes know the result before the race, but I like to get early prices and sometimes the market strength isn't so clear first thing in the morning. There's a lot to be said for being guided as much by market as by form from time to time. I certainly feel a lot better when the tapes go up if i'm on at a price significantly higher rather than lower. As far as how do the bookies know? They're sneaky sneaky little people!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fintron Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? The bookies attempt to have their cards marked by buying supposed 'information' from stable insiders. The problem is they sell it to that many people that you get individuals that try and then sell it back on via tipping services. Some of the info is garbled crap, while some of it is okay, the guys within the firms will get to know the guys that pass on reliable info and which don't. I'd be gutted if I was an owner and some stable lad was selling the info on to the bookies on how it was working but c'est la vie it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? i dont think they are "blatantly" in the bookies pockets, but, imo ladbrokes have coolmore information corals seem to be spot on every sat on the "big race" willy hills seem to be 1st to cut odds it may be on my selections only, but when i back track, i see a pettern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeblitz Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? In any sport where there is gambling involved there will be crookedness. Most of the bookmakers have a fair idea of what is fancied. Some receive information from someone in the yard or connected with the yard. That is the case with Ladbrokes 100%. I even know who it is! But will not divulge any more. I get info from certain stables too. Many do but most of us keep our mouths shut. Why jeopardise a good thing? At the end of the day though, the money on determines the price. Whether it is the likes of Ladbrokes creating a false favourite at a dog or small horse meeting by shoveling the money on or the public backing a horse, the odds will shorten. As regards a bookie with no info, he will get to know "the faces" from certain stables and if the faces are not on, he will happily take it on in the market ie take a gamble. If there is no money for a horse he will drift and if a bookie has knowledge that he will not win, he will drift and in general if the faces are not on he will drift also. In general, steer clear of horses in Ladbrokes specials. If Paddy Power offer enhanced odds on a Henderson runner, look elsewhere etc... Do you get my drift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilM Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 I don't think anybody serious takes enhanced prices on any horse. Madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeblitz Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? I agree NeilM. If you do your homework and decide the morning price is good (it is usually guaranteed) you will have your business done well before the live show arrives. Why take a show price not knowing whether or not it will be enhanced if the mp is guaranteed anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radelnblueangel Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Re: Are some trainers blatantly in the pockets of trainers? I think a lot of info on horses you dont get from home, horses change quite dramatically on a day to day basis and race by race basis in appearance, confidence and willingness to race. Today I put up a BBOTD of a horse that i liked in behaviour LTO but seeing it today in comparison to the fav I knew it wouldnt win, was simply physically not that good. I think the real money comes from horse experts who work with the horse if its morning or midday money and can see how it is on the day the horse or the people oncourse who get all the information from the parade ring before the off. I was lately in Frankfurt on course and made my bets in the parade ring, its very easy to dismiss horses and spot the likely winner oncourse. From home it all looks often very fishy but oncourse i always felt its all crystal clear and obvious. So the problem is you dont get the right information from home. Oncourse I had from 6 bets three 8/1 winner they had formlines of 7895 after i checked them up in the evening. From home you work with numbers and try to make your book, oncourse you see every horse in detail and can make a much more accurate book. This kind of information is what lays big or backs big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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