Summer Jumping

[RussP]

I'm not really a fan of jump racing anyway so would like to hear views from the jumping enthusiasts. Should summer jumps be banned with all this firm ground around and the number of recent terrible injuries jockeys have received? Personally, and for the safety of the jockeys & horses, I think it should. Another very serious incident today, seems like Isabel Tompsett had to be resusicated twice. In hospital, say a prayer for her this evening:hope

[diamond1924]

Re: Summer Jumping I love the meetings at Perth and Cartmel, but that was carnage today

[erhaab1965]

Re: Summer Jumping What is the logic behind banning summer jumping ? No one is calling for a ban. It caters for horses which prefer quicker conditions. Also it gives the smaller yards the chance to win races and pick up prizes money whilst the more powerful yards are having their summer break.P Bowen has benefited immensely in recent summers as an example. Althougth saying that P Nicholls in the last cople of years has begun running a few during the summer , whereas he traditionally begun his season in mid October.

[RussP]

Re: Summer Jumping Erhaab, you make some very valid points about horses on fast ground & the smaller trainers. I do support those views. However, if it is affecting safety (and, to me, it seems as though it is), then someone somewhere needs to take a serious look at it and come up with a solution, whether it's banning summer jumps or something else. Fingers crossed for Isabel.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Summer Jumping There is only so much that watering can do. The firmer the ground, the faster horses race. The firmer the ground, the harder surfaces are to fall on. The firmer the ground, the greater velocity horse and jockey have on impact. The firmer the ground, the more injuries and fatalities to horse and jockey. The firmer ground is far more likely when temperatures are more likely to be hot. The firmer ground is far more likely in Summer, so... Ban Summer jumping in June, July and August! April this year was an unusually dry month compared to most Aprils, so there were more race meetings under firmish conditions. But we must surely judge things by average ground conditions. And the average April meeting (in the last 10 years) is run on softer ground than the average June meeting. I don't care if everyone at Worcester and Uttoxetter enjoy themselves, and/or the standard of racing is good (though most of it isn't), and/or that National Hunt needs it or not. Summer jumping provides too high a price for horses and jockeys (imo). I once talked to Jockeys doctor, Dr Pritchard, who told me injuries to jockeys go up dramatically on a firm surface.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Summer Jumping There has been no mention of banning summer jumping by those in the industry , only by a few on here. If there was a real concern within the industry then we would have heard about them years ago.You don't hear jockeys refusing rides because the ground is riding fast. In the early 90s they did ban all weather jumps because of the loss of equine and human life.Over turf i think it is more due to the fact that jockeys today are not as good over fences than jockeys in the past.This was highlighted in a report somewhere.Sorry can't remember where i read it , but basically it said that there were fewer fallers in the past than there is today.

[jayalexander]

Re: Summer Jumping It's the bloody horses that have to jump the damn fences, not the jockeys! Ever thought that it might actually be the rides rather than the rider that are getting worse? Could be true when you think about changing breeding practices.

[Gingertipster]

Re: Summer Jumping

There has been no mention of banning summer jumping by those in the industry , only by a few on here. If there was a real concern within the industry then we would have heard about them years ago.You don't hear jockeys refusing rides because the ground is riding fast. In the early 90s they did ban all weather jumps because of the loss of equine and human life.Over turf i think it is more due to the fact that jockeys today are not as good over fences than jockeys in the past.This was highlighted in a report somewhere.Sorry can't remember where i read it , but basically it said that there were fewer fallers in the past than there is today.

Jockeys have a choice, horses don't. AP McCoy has already said he'd like a break in the programme, make of that what you will. You can't expect journeyman jockeys to say "I don't want to make money" (refuse to ride), they'd be laughed at and be jocked off other rides by trainers. It's a macho sport. You'll find that most top trainers (the Nicholls and Hendersons etc) don't run many horses in the Summer; because of the danger. Nicholls even shuts his stable down in the height of Summer to disinfect every nook and cranny; to stop viruses. To say jockeys aren't as good as they were is ridiculous, in AP, RW and BG we have the best three jockeys there's ever been. Of course there were fewer fallers in the past, they did not race in the Summer. Softer ground means racing at a slower pace, means it is easier to get over the obstacles. Also, you may think the stiffer fences of years ago meant there would be more fallers and fatalities. This is not the case. With harder fences to jump, there was a need to respect them by making sure they jumped slower. These days if jockeys went slower in to the fences they simply would not win. It is speed and hardness of the ground that kills. You get both with firm ground. As I said, the jockeys doctor told me there was a significant increase in injury (and therefore death) on firm ground. What would you rather fall on, a soft surface or a hard one? Would you rather fall at speed or slower?

[Tabbythecat]

Re: Summer Jumping

Another very serious incident today, seems like Isabel Tompsett had to be resusicated twice. In hospital, say a prayer for her this evening:hope

I have started a thread for her Russ

[Gingertipster]

Re: Summer Jumping Ever wondered why they did not have Summer Jump racing in the past? Because it was thought to be too dangerous. The problem the BHA would have if banning it now is: It brings in money. There'd be an outcry by those who do well at that time of year and punters who want to go racing. There'd be an outcry by those who wanted jumping to be banned on a firm surface whatever the time of year. None of the above should stop the right thing from happening!

[erhaab1965]

Re: Summer Jumping

Ever wondered why they did not have Summer Jump racing in the past? Because it was thought to be too dangerous.

Where have you actually read this ? In over 20 years of following racing i've never heard a serious debate about this topic. A reason AP McCoy would like a reducton in summer jumps is because the seasons are literally back to back. When the season finishes the next season starts the very next day!! The is little opportunity for him to take a long break , unlike the flat jockeys where they can choose to take a few months break. In regard to the "bloody" horses which jump the fences.Yes i know its the horses which do the jumping.But its the jockeys which do the controlling and steering.The statistic about current jockeys falling more than past jockeys is reiterated by a former top jockey , unfortunately i cant remember much other than i read it in the last year.One thing i remember about it is that the jockey says the technique used by todays jockeys is different to in his day which may be a contributing factor to the fall rate. I personally am not a fan of summer jumps and think here is to much racing at the moment , however to suggest it should be banned because it is too dangerous is pretty flawed.

[erhaab1965]

Re: Summer Jumping What i do think is dangerous is during the winter when frozen courses have multiple inspections during the morning in the hope that the temperature goes one degree above zero!! This is in my opinion is just greed and not in the best interest of both horses and jockeys.So much credability is lost when a meeting is abandoned well after the start time of the first race.

[Jimmy2shoes]

Re: Summer Jumping Yes the jumps should come to an end, HOWEVER the rain aint stopped in Scotland for days so the ground is going to be great ground for chasers, but it would not be like that all the time. The P2P season from what i know finished on Sunday ''yesterday'' but yes it should finish up and prepare for a new season.

[Tabbythecat]

Re: Summer Jumping

What i do think is dangerous is during the winter when frozen courses have multiple inspections during the morning in the hope that the temperature goes one degree above zero!! This is in my opinion is just greed and not in the best interest of both horses and jockeys.So much credability is lost when a meeting is abandoned well after the start time of the first race.

I suppose the clerks of the courses do like to give the ground time to thaw out but you have do draw the line on if it is safe to race or not, add into that the TV money etc, they do tread a thin line, I grant you but calling a meeting off say 30 mins before the first race, shouldnt be allowed as by then people have paid to get in

[TheBoyRooney]

Re: Summer Jumping i imagine there are as many injuries in the winter months as there are in the summer months,and fatalities with horses the same..does any one have any stats showing percentages etc of incidents in the seasons? I imagine its very balanced and differs yearly.] .I think here we are just trying to make something fit...Did that jockey not get injured in the grand national meet in april? That wasn't in the summer?Matthew O connor who is thankfully a lot better got injured in march 2009?

[Gingertipster]

Re: Summer Jumping

Where have you actually read this ? In over 20 years of following racing i've never heard a serious debate about this topic. A reason AP McCoy would like a reducton in summer jumps is because the seasons are literally back to back. When the season finishes the next season starts the very next day!! The is little opportunity for him to take a long break , unlike the flat jockeys where they can choose to take a few months break. In regard to the "bloody" horses which jump the fences.Yes i know its the horses which do the jumping.But its the jockeys which do the controlling and steering.The statistic about current jockeys falling more than past jockeys is reiterated by a former top jockey , unfortunately i cant remember much other than i read it in the last year.One thing i remember about it is that the jockey says the technique used by todays jockeys is different to in his day which may be a contributing factor to the fall rate. I personally am not a fan of summer jumps and think here is to much racing at the moment , however to suggest it should be banned because it is too dangerous is pretty flawed.

It is just comman sense that falling on a hard surface is more dangerous than falling on a soft surface. And falling on at a faster speed means it is even more dangerous. I had that confirmed by a doctor who treats jockeys for their injuries. It's a fact that it is far more dangerous, and a matter of opinion whether it is TOO dangerous. So not "flawed" at all. AP is not going to ruffle feathers by saying it is too dangerous. All I am saying is, for whatever reason AP wants a break in the Summer. You are probably right in his reason for this, but it is clearly wrong to suggest no jockey wants a Summer break. I think it is flawed to treat an article as fact. When you can't remember much about it; and written by an ex jockey about how they were so much better jockeys in his day.:lol It stands to reason the game has changed. Jockeys ride differently because technique has changed to enable them to go faster. May be (or may be not) it has led to more fallers; but a jockey needs to go that fast these days to win.

[Darran]

Re: Summer Jumping

Yes the jumps should come to an end, HOWEVER the rain aint stopped in Scotland for days so the ground is going to be great ground for chasers, but it would not be like that all the time. The P2P season from what i know finished on Sunday ''yesterday'' but yes it should finish up and prepare for a new season.

The Point To Point season doesnt finish until June 18th.

[Labrador]

Re: Summer Jumping

Ever wondered why they did not have Summer Jump racing in the past? Because it was thought to be too dangerous................

In the past there was a load of jumps racing on the Bank Holiday Monday at the end of May, after which there was no NH until August. The new season used to start with Market Rasen in early August followed by a few fixtures at the likes of Worcester and Devon & Exeter (as it was then called). The season didn't really start in earnest until the first Chepstow meeting in early October. Very often those early season fixtures in August and September were raced on firm and even officially "hard" ground. It is no longer permitted for racing to take place on "hard". The fields were invariably small and certain horses who could cope with very firm conditions made hay. I remember Milton Bradley having a chaser called Grey Dolphin who won loads of races and who always stayed sound. Rather than being considered too dangerous, I believe it was generally considered sensible for the sport to have a couple of months off, for batteries to be recharged and for horses to be horses again out in the fields. Of course there was no Sunday racing then either.

[Tabbythecat]

Re: Summer Jumping

Very often those early season fixtures in August and September were raced on firm and even officially "hard" ground. It is no longer permitted for racing to take place on "hard". The fields were invariably small and certain horses who could cope with very firm conditions made hay. I remember Milton Bradley having a chaser called Grey Dolphin who won loads of races and who always stayed sound. Rather than being considered too dangerous, I believe it was generally considered sensible for the sport to have a couple of months off, for batteries to be recharged and for horses to be horses again out in the fields. Of course there was no Sunday racing then either.

Interesting points Labrador, it does make you wonder how Bath Racecourse keeps getting ground no worse than firm seeing they dont have a watering sytem

[Jimmy2shoes]

Re: Summer Jumping

The Point To Point season doesnt finish until June 18th.

Must have picked it up wrong, i thought it was Sunday just past. Do you go ? Thanks.

[Darran]

Re: Summer Jumping

Must have picked it up wrong, i thought it was Sunday just past. Do you go ? Thanks.

Yeah I go most weekends during the main months of the season. My main horse racing betting is on hunter chases as well.

[mileni4uk]

Re: Summer Jumping Press in England is beyond belief for me. Britain is obviously an island. How much this plays into all things is impossible to gauge with real accuracy, but the country is notoriously conservative. Like no other place in Europe, or possibly the world, it is dominated by the opinion of the tabloid press and the associated media. Newspaper readership is vastly higher than in most countries. Where big money goes, deregulation follows. Tabloid press is rabid and allowed to be rabid. Tabloid press makes money out of sensationalism and populism. All those animal activists given the stage to talk their talk, but they'll never walk the walk. They can't. It makes me sick. As if jockeys and trainers don't care about their horses. And the biggest hypocracy - all the press talking about how National is dangerous for horses a day after it has been advertising the race all over the country and giving away betting coupons and all their shite promotions. That's all that is. Just hype in the aftermath of two horses sadly losing their lives in the National. As for jockeys, there are many sports, which are dangerous. It's not just horse racing. There will always be injured jockeys and horses losing their life on the course just like there'll always be broken feet in football. If we start looking into everything, then we might have to ban the Dickie Johnson's and Aspell's of this sport, because they are terrible at presenting the horses at a fence and they can't judge a stride. It must be noted that all those recent injuries are of conditionals. Gallagher, Tompsett, Toole. I don't know if this is a coincidence or not. It's probably the way they ride/jump (and especially fall!). And of course their inexperience. That might be the real issue. Summer jumping has a lot more pros than cons for me. There are so many yards, whoose whole existence relies on it. .. And last but not least, Tom O'Brien will need those meetings when Dickie Johnson retires and he becomes Hobbs' stable jockey. Then he'll be able to be a champion jockey, because he'll have the Hobbs winners in the winter and the Peter Bowen winners in the summer! :D