CJ Mars Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Interested in anyone’s views on this hand I played yesterday. It’s a table of 6. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Its raised 8$ in early position by a guy that I see a lot at the 1$ : 2$ tables. He’s a guy that will raise with small pairs and play them to the river hoping to catch trips. One of the worst players I’ve seen. To give a flavour of what he is like he’s gone all in on the flop about two hands previously holding QJ with an Ace on the board to catch a runner runner straight with a King and ten on the river :\ . Probably thought it was good play. He is holding about 90$. I’m holding 240$ in late position. Everyone folds to me. I’m holding KJc. This guy could have anything. It could be AA but just as easily be 22 or Ax. I call. The flop comes 10c9c8h. I’m drawing to an open ended straight and a flush neither of which will be the nuts admittedly but I’ve got a pretty good hand. I check. He goes all in with his 70+ chips. He could have flopped trips I think or is maybe holding AQc. Maybe even QJ and has made his straight already. I figure that without discounting my outs I have 9 outs to the flush 6 outs to the straight 6 outs to an overcard(unlikely with most but possible with this joker) I call it. Two small rags fall. He turns his cards. He’s called all in with an A8 offsuit :eek and won with a pair of eights. Thinks he is brilliant as well which is extra galling. I think I’d a good drawing hand but again not sure whether I’d played it well in making the decision to call. Against most players I would have folded this. I was probably influenced by an earlier hand I played last week in a very similar situation when I called and won an all in on the flop with a straight and flush draw (the latter the nuts) and won with the flush. I was holding a paired ace with what would have been a tied kicker in that case admittedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GETT1NLOTS Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Hi CJ, I would have called the $8 and the $70 just as you did. Here are the reasons why. a) Firstly you have read the guy correctly. He has already gone in on drawing hands before now so the power of his $70 bet is not to be respected. b) You're in last position and no one else has called. You hold a decent couple of cards in a heads up against a loose player with less chips than you. c) He has over bet the pot. Weak players often do this in a vain attempt to fein strength. Of course strong players can do this to ward off weak players from drawing a lucky card but we have already established this guy wasn't a good player right? d) You have so many outs. In order for you to be scared about him hitting a bigger flush he has to hold the Ac which is probable. But to be really scared he has to be holding the Ac with another club which is very unlikely. He will need two clubs to come on the turn and river respectively and this is unlikely. So whilst you are not nut flushing - you have the second best flush and the likely winner if one more club lands. e) He's all in. With so many outs you have to call in my opinion. He can't hurt you more than the $70 he is in and your bank will take it. If he had another $300 left in front of him I would worry as I might be betting my whole stack against this guy who is liable to call or raise with anything. That might make me hesitate a little. But this wasn't the case here so once again I would have called. I dont know what the maths are given this situation (Jez might help you there) but given the circumstances as you described them I would have played the hand the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingForTheEnemy Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Not much to add, I simply agree with GETT1N. All I can say is hope you spend more time at the table with the guy cos eventually you'll end up the winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Mars Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Thanks for the replies. I was just reading another site (Matthew Hilger’s Internet Texas Holdem) and the general consensus was pretty much exactly like Getting described in that eventually you have a positive expectation but in the short term things can obviously go pear shaped like yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Mars Posted December 30, 2004 Author Share Posted December 30, 2004 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Sorry about the mental font. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezza Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Hi CJ, It seems to me you played this hand well. Now first of all calling a raise with KJs is usually a bad play (It is dominated by many hands people will raise with, AK AJ KQ JJ QQ KK AA etc) however as you point out the guy is loose cannon (could have anything) and bad with his play after the flop (a type of player you REALLY want on your table when playing NL) so your call was good. Now when the flop comes down you have a monster drawing hand - an open-ended straight and flush draw like you have is ODDS ON to make its hand and take down the pot. You are in a cash game so if you get unlucky and do not make your hand it is not as if you are out, you can just curse the poker gods, reach into your pocket and start again. As you say it is possible he has precisely the Ax of clubs or has indeed flopped a straight but seeing as his previous play indicated going all in with weak hands I would not assume he has something this strong as he is liable to do the opposite if that was the case (a common newbie mistake - a strong player will play good hands hard). To be quite frank against any player I would continue with this hand, you are a FAVOURITE on the flop against AA and KK and just about any other hand - if whoever you are playing against has the nut flush draw then you just have to say good luck to them really - laying your hand down here against one player can only be bad mathematically in the long run. Now to look at some of the hands he might have and your odds. HIM (AA) - 44.2% YOU - 55.8% HIM (109) - 47.5% YOU - 52.5% HIM (A8 - What he had) - 31.5% YOU - 68.% As you can see you are a favourite against even an overpair on the flop therefore this is where we want our money in. So we are going to play this hand for sure, the only question is how? I will not bother with the exact odds but notice if a blank falls on the turn HE becomes the favourite - in NL we do not want to be left with calling a small bet on the flop, missing the turn and then him moving all in giving us a bad price for the final draw to the river. If we are going to play this hand in NL you want the money in when you have the mathematical value. You did this by calling his all in bet - it was the correct move no doubt about that you had the golden "value" of gambling - you just got unlucky. If you retake that same situation a thousand times you will end up with the $$$. But was there a better way to play it? If YOU had been the one who moved all in at the flop first man to speak then there is a large chance he may have folded. You then pick up the pot with king high not have having had to hit your draw - this is a good thing. The mathematical chance of him folding only adds to your positive expectation in doing this and just means the hand would earn you more $ in the long run. I have to admit this is not how I would played it either, if I had been in your shoes against a mug player I would have gone for the check-raise all in. Checking hoping he bets a little for you to raise all in back at him. It would be very hard for most players to call that bet on a board showing 1098 with just a pair of 8s and even if they do you still have the positive edge. I realise that it is risky in that he may not bet but based on his previous play as you say I reckon there is a large chance he will do. (Ultimately what would have happened of course is he would have gone AI and I would have called as you did). Note this is good cash game play as you can reach into your pocket anytime. Risking all your chips in a tournament on a draw is pretty bad at any time Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezza Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Sorry CJ did not see your post about pot odds at the end there. They are TOTALLY relevant, even more so in an all in situation (as you can see the exact amounts - there is nothing further to take into consideration). If someone moves in at a pot on the flop/turn and you have to call to draw you must consider the % chance you have of making your draw and the odds you have of hitting it. If four people go all in for 100 quid at a flop of 8s 4s Kh and you hold AQs you must call (in a cash game anyway) as you have the correct pot odds (VALUE!). After a while you begin to know the more common ones but the odds the pot is laying you must come into consideration whenever you call an all in. Just like they would when you are choosing odds a bookmaker is laying you Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abookiesworstnightmare Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? odds aside, Do you think a high stakes professional player would of called that? no way imo. Infact I work at a Bookies (you may know which one but i aint spellin it out) and we have VERY HIGH stakes players who if i mentioned names (which i wouldn't) you would know, who i have watch playing at our poker room, and they would not of called that. I'm Not saying whether its right or wrong don't get me wrong i'm just saying you wouldn't see someone i mentioned above would not of called that in most circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? At stated the guy he was playing was a not a high stakes pro player, he was a loose wild gambler type player who could have had pish. The way the hadn was played seems fair enough to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abookiesworstnightmare Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? i know what he was saying, i'm not trying to say hes wrong, but he's only risked $8 of his own money and now hes gotta risk and extra 9x that on the chance that he might be a slight favorite, i wouldn't of called it is what i was i was trying to say i guess. i was a little drunkwhen i typed it :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezza Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? based on everything we know about the guy, (including pushing weak hands hard on the flop) we can practically assume we ARE a favourite on the flop from his play and there is only a minute chance he holds the A flush draw. T Jez P.S CJ what are your opinions on everyones views here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abookiesworstnightmare Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? How can you be sure hes a weak player? What if the only times your seeing his cards is when hes on a complete bluff, He raises all in with QJ with an ace on the flop, so what? thats a good position to bluff in representing the Ace. You can't be 100% he is a weak player when you are not seenig every hand he is playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezza Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? I can only analyze the hand on what i have been told ABWN, we obv disagree on this one....fair enough ;) Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliensyndm Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Ha ha spoken like a true mod. Switzlerand would be proud of that one. Thing is with poker rarely can you ever be sure, it's not the way the game works. If you have the nuts then fine yeah you throw all your money in or whatever without fear of losing but that rarely happens, it's about judgement and using what info you have available to you and making a decision. If I have come to the conclusion someone is a weak player and a play like described happens i will call ! Sometimes I will be wrong, hopefully most times I wont be. As long as the majority of the time you are putting your money in ahead then that's cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GETT1NLOTS Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Yeah I was going to post something similar. I don't know what 'abookies' is trying to say to be honest. :unsure You have to make a judgement if a player is weak, strong, tight or loose and play against them accordingly. It's what the game is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abookiesworstnightmare Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? sorry i was away for a few days..... my own game is varied. Sometimes i complete bluff sometimes i will call with shit for small amounts just so other players think i'm a weak player. My point is unless you can actually stare them in the face and get a read, on the internet you can never be sure if your up against a weak player or a clever player who makes out hes a weak player. You may be sitting with $300 and hes only got $80 but you cant see how much is his in balance and how much he has given up just to get this one big hand where he gets someone to call him. it's hard to give a clear example i guess we'll just have to just disagree? on this one. Bottom line (for me) is if his money is already in and you are not "married" to the pot which for $8 i wouldn't be whats that £4? i wouldn't of called i'd of waited for a better situation be cause if he is a weak player now, if you let him think he can bully you out of the big pot now (which he isn't you just make him think he is) there's probably a better chance hes gonna raise you with even less next time. I hope i made sense there :rollin . Anyway each to his own. Good Luck in the poker rooms unlesss your up against me :tongue2 !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Mars Posted January 11, 2005 Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? Thanks for all the replies. I’m sure I’m not the only one who appreciates the time and effort put into them. I’m still not too sure what I’d do again versus this guy in the same situation but the replies were very interesting reflecting a pretty wide view of opinions. I have to admit to finding Jez’s logical explanations with percentages especially clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GETT1NLOTS Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? CJ, Use this and have a play around to familiarise yourself with percentages pertaining to hands you would normally play. http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/texas_holdem.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezza Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? CJ, Those % odds are the chances each hand has of winning on the flop. Generally I know all the common odds off by heat. These are situations such as drawing for a flush, a straight and both at the same time. Common preflop scenarios such as AK v KQ PP vs Lower PP etc - pocket pair vs one overcard and one lower card or when you have made a pair on the flop but need to improve to win. Having a set on the flop but needing to house to win is another common one (but more so in omaha really). If you go and fiddle around with gett1ns link and have a look at some scenarios you will start to get a feel for them and after a while they should become part of your thinking. In answer to your question, yeah I do know all the common ones to get involved with off by heart. However of course frequently situations in holdem present themselves when you might be wanting to calculate your odds of drawing to improve to win when you are on the flop but cant recall it/dont know it at that present moment. It can be hard to know how to do this on the spot but here is an easy method. Count the number of "outs" you have in terms of cards say in our example you hold A4 your opponent has KQ and the flop is 49Q You have 5 "outs" to improve on the turn and river (3 aces and 2 fours) out of 45 unseen cards yet to come - this gives us a 5/45 chance However we have two chances to hit - the turn AND the river so what you can do is double the amount of outs you have to arrive at a 10/45 chance in total. Please note this is a mathematical "fudge" - a quick way of arriving at an approximation. The answer you will get back in your head will always give you a slightly bigger chance of winning than what the true odds are - however for the purpose of playing hold em poker and having to do quick calculations with a 30 second timebank it will suffice. For the record the above calculation gives you a 22% of winning when the true odds would be 20% Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Mars Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? CJ, Use this and have a play around to familiarise yourself with percentages pertaining to hands you would normally play. Cheers. Thats a handy little program Gettin. The only problem my connection is so slow I can't actually use it while playing. Is there a standalone version around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GETT1NLOTS Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Re: Calling an All In with a Strong Drawing Hand? I think Komp provided a link for one ages ago CJ but it wasn't very good. I have trawled the net for the last 15 minutes or so but I can't find Komps or any other for that matter. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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