tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ.

[Chapman]

Any thoughts welcome on what you might do in this particular spot I found myself in playing the $55+$5/12k gtd MTT on Betfair the other night. It's the last hand before the first break, 100 players or so remain (170 odd started) with 18 paid and I sit with a stack around average. I have zero info on the table as I'd just been moved a couple of hands previous.

***** Betfair Poker Hand History for Game 669540991 ***** NL Texas Hold'em $55 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee, Level:6 Blinds(100/200-(no ante)) - Thursday, March 18, 21:13:43 GMT 2010 *HOT! Stack Up $12,000 GTD Freezeout #361739 Table 10 9-max (Real Money) Seat 1 is the button Total number of active players : 8 Seat 1: turbid ( 6,415.63 ) Seat 2: Chapsmick82 ( 5,303 ) Seat 3: darkhorse22 ( 2,280 ) Seat 4: Petacchi ( 2,460 ) Seat 5: ziovani ( 6,210 ) Seat 7: milds2 ( 12,502.50 ) Seat 8: brandonlea ( 5,512.50 ) Seat 9: jaral ( 9,143.50 ) Tourney Level:6 Blinds(100/200-(no ante)) Chapsmick82 posts small blind [100] darkhorse22 posts big blind [200] ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Chapsmick82 [ Jh, Js ] Petacchi calls [200] ziovani folds milds2 calls [200] brandonlea calls [200] jaral folds turbid calls [200] Chapsmick82......

I'd like to do this street by street (I'll post the next part later) because it was a spot I admit to being a bit uncomfortable with and I don't want the result to affect the thought process - we're OOP holding JJ in a multi limped pot, now what?

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. With no info on the table I am limping along too hoping to hit trips. I don't want to raise and be building a big pot when all I have is a mid-pair, and there's three players in the pot who have me covered. I don't want to fold - getting 11/1 to call and being just over 7/1 to flop a J.

[happyhornet]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I agree that this is a tricky one. Obviously, a fold is not an option, so you either limp and hope the flop favours you, or you raise to either take it down pre-flop or cut the number of opponents down. If you limp (assuming the BB doesn't raise) you have a six way flop. I don't know the exact maths but there is a fairly strong possibility of an over card on the flop and against 5 opponents you can categorically say that you are beaten. Equally on a low flop with limpers, your Jacks could be up against two pair, a set or a big draw. Overall, you will only really be happy with a Jack on the flop. I would raise to 1000. If someone comes over the top, I would throw it away, but you have a good shot at taking it down here. Equally if you get a caller, you can c-bet almost any flop.

[Chapman]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. Ok I figure it's probably best to add the next part because it's obvious that I need to raise here as JJ is more than likely to be the best hand at this point but how much? I considered shoving it all in with a good chance everyone would fold and be happy picking up a decent pot. Instead I decided a decent size raise could have the same effect and if I do get a call and hit a good flop I could double through and have a very playable stack after the break but I'm not happy at being OOP..

Chapsmick82 raises to [1,050] darkhorse22 folds Petacchi folds milds2 folds brandonlea calls [850] turbid folds ** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Qd, 6h ]

We get one call and a decent flop for the hand, I think? The pot is around 3k now and OOP I c/b..

Chapsmick82 bets [1,200] brandonlea calls [1,200] ** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]

This is where I'm most usure of what to do and just need opinion/advice on how I've played the hand so far.. Pre flop raise? Do I have to C/B 100% of the time here? C/B size? What range to you have the villian on once he calls the C/B and what is he putting me on? The turn is harmless unless he has 33 but are you limp/calling pre-flop and on the flop here with 33? What do you do next? Edit: Thanks for the response Anita/HH, I have to go out but will reply later, I have similar thoughts to HH it seems. :)

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. The fact you've now got 40% of your chips in the middle with no real idea of where you are is exactly the reason why I would have just set-mined this hand. You've built a big pot with a middle pair, and it's already expensive. As played, villain could have limp-called pre- with AK, KQs, AQs, QJs, smaller pocket pair than you. Pot is 5.3k, you have 3k. If you bet, it's all-in, and hoping he doesn't have the Q or 66. If you check, he is waiting to steal the pot off you possibly with air. As played, you've built a big pot, seen what you see as a good flop, seen a good turn - you have to shove them in here I think. If he has KQ, 66 etc then so be it, pick yourself up and dust yourself down for the next one. I think the key is the fact you had no info on these players - therefore you have no idea what Villain's range could be really. Which is why I would have kept the pot small and more manageable pre-flop, and taken my good odds on flopping a set.

[Nade]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I think as you bet so small on the flop 1200 into 2800 you can credibly get villain to shove worse hands on the turn if you check to him as it looks like you took a cheap stab and are giving up. With that small flop bet that's definitely the line i'd take as then jamming turn makes your hand look strong so you get less calls from hands you beat. If you cbet half pot then against an unknown i'd just jam the turn as they have no info on you they'll more often then not find an excuse to call with their random shit, they obviously have Qs and full houses in their range but jacks is well ahead most of their range. Pre flop raise? good Do I have to C/B 100% of the time here? pretty much to make your range as wide as possible C/B size? half pot would be fine What range to you have the villian on once he calls the C/B and what is he putting me on? villain could have any two cards but i'd weight their range more towards a made hand The turn is harmless unless he has 33 but are you limp/calling pre-flop and on the flop here with 33? monkeys do but thing is tourns are 95% of monkeys What do you do next? jam turn

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I don't like the pre-flop raise unless you shove all in. A raise like you made makes the hand much more difficult than it would be if you limp. A shove obv makes post flop non-existent in terms of decisions, and you most likely just increase your stack by just under 20% without any showdown. As played, I think checking the turn and river with the intention of calling is ok. He might have a hand that beats you, but at least give him a chance to bluff on the occassions that he doesn't. Also, going all in on the turn is fine.

[Nade]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. My PoV is in these situations if i'm raising pre flop with a big pair it's going to take a pretty special flop or action to get me to fold on any flop rather than having a scared mentality where you're hoping to not get a 'scary' which would give an excuse to fold. A situation came up for me yesterday about 50people left a tight player min raised UTG a guy in EP called and i'm in the BB with JJ so i 3bet squeezed with the intention of shoving any flop if called - UTG 4bet so i shoved and they called with AA and held but i was still in with like 10BBs and got back in it. Someone on the table said i should have called the first min raise to see a flop then i can fold if there's an overcard. I think that mentality is pretty poor IMO you shouldn't be looking for excuses to fold instead look for excuses to take pots and win chips.

[averick]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. That mentality is pretty fine Nade, however I don't see how profitable it is to 5bet shove a tight UTG player, at best aren't you racing with AK?

[averick]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I find myself in the toughest spots with JJ most of the time and here's another one lol. Pre flop raise? Fine, but I would have made a slightly bigger raise. Do I have to C/B 100% of the time here? On this board texture yes unless your opponent is tricky; I might try a check raise then C/B size? 1/2 to 2/3 pot What range to you have the villian on once he calls the C/B and what is he putting me on? This is very opponent dependent. Does he like to float? Is he a straightforward player? How does he play his pocket pairs? You have to take all these into consideration. The turn is harmless unless he has 33 but are you limp/calling pre-flop and on the flop here with 33? As Nade said I can imagine a donkey doing so, or if you have a very LAG image at the table someone might call you down with that. What do you do next? I would shove if I feel I can get paid off by worse here more often than checking and inducing a bluff. Best move against donkeys, just be sure they aren't sandbagging a queen!

[Chapman]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. Thanks everyone for the excellent response so far. :clap I'm happy I did what most suggested after the way I played the hand up to this point, I think I have to jam the turn and if he has QX, 66 or the very unlikey 33 then so be it - he insta called and showed the last hand I want to see. :\

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ] Chapsmick82 goes all-in Chapsmick82 bets [3,053] brandonlea calls [3,053] ** Showdown ** Chapsmick82 shows [ Jh, Js ] brandonlea shows [ Qs, Jd ] ** Dealing River ** [ 8s ] ** Hand Conclusion ** brandonlea wins 11,406 from main pot with three of a kind, Queens ************ Game 669540991 ends ************

I really hated the suggestion of limping to set mine here because I felt I'd be wasting what I'm sure is the best hand at that point, after the end result it's hard to argue I should totally rule it out as an option because I'll easliy get away from it and move on if the BB checks. If I stick it all in pre as Dave suggested (this was my first instinct) I'd like to think (tho you never know :lol) that Mr QJo is laying it down, I take the pot and move on. I think probably the most important point made is the lack of info I have on anyone at the table having just been moved, normally if I'm moved to a new table I'll lay low at first to get an idea of the table dynamics and how eveyone is playing. The importance of this can never be understated as it will obviously determine the way you play and what you potentially can/can't get away with against each individual, I noticed Nade's thread about the best way to play when deep in a MTT and pretty much EVERYTHING depends on adapting to the stack size and playing style of each person at the table. I'm not sure any of the suggested play's ITT are 100% right or wrong, on another day I will at best double through and give myself some room to play and go deep. After reading all the response here, the fact I'd just got on the table, that I'm not in desperate trouble at this point in the game and I had little idea of where I was after being called that I didn't need to get as tricky as I did but at that moment I decided I wanted to take the initiative and get aggro with the JJ after all the limping I perceived as weakness. It didnt work out this time but I'm not as annoyed at myself as I was previously so...:cheers

[heniek31]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I have seen your hand first (in 1st post) and this next:

I found myself in playing the $55+$5/12k gtd MTT on Betfair

And I already made up my mind. All in :ok. First of all, I had a pleasure of playing this MTT 7 or 8 times, as a winning team player in BF Challenge (Tabatai). I have one thing to say. This is the worst $55 MTT I have ever played (as many times). The play is absolutely awfull. It doesn't matter how much you raise (even up to 15x :eek), people will still call you. People never fold any draws and they will call you all the way with any pair. TBH, I would find more pleasure of playing €1 on Boss site. I don't find anything wrong with your way of playing in this particular hand. I would have played more like it the same, if I played this MTT 1st or 2nd time. But not after I had played it few times already. I remember one hand, two guys on about 20k stacks. Raise, re, all in, all in. One has A9o, other J8o :lol. And on of mine memorable hands. First hand KK. I raise to 220 (b10/20). Get 3 callers. Flop Qh10h x. I bet a pot and two of them call me. Turn 5. I know, they are both on draw and I pushed. And they both call. One has Jh7h, other 5h4h :rollin. This is the first hand of the tourney (3k stack I think) ffs :loon. Anyway, nothing you can do against donk calls Mick :\.

[TastesLikeTuna]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. Raise to 999 pre-flop. The QQx flop is a good flop for your hand and there is no folding post flop. Anyone who says check back pre is a nit. Also don't shove pre-flop. A shove will basically narrow down your opponents calling range and put simply it's hard to imagine anybody limp/calling with anything worse than JJ when you shove. A raise to 1k will keep opponents range wide enough to limp/call plenty of worse hands. Again checking your option pre is laughable and beyond nitty. It's the right play to check when much deeper stacked but you're not even close to deep here.

[Hooloovoo]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I have not read any of the answers yet as i don't want to be biased. It might look like a tricky spot but it really is not. The worst play here is calling. The pot contains 1100 at this point so your pot odds for calling (11-to-1) is fantastic, but calling has these disadvantages: - You don't know if calling 100 is enough, there is still a BB to act, and if he raises, then someone who has limped with a real hand might re-raise. (and then you should probably fold) - You are out of position with 4 or 5 (!!!) active players behind you - If you don't flop a jack, which will be 7 out of 8 times, then what? Leading out on any non-jack board with a pair of jacks into 4/5 players who has limped? I think not. Folding is bad as well, jacks are a too good a holding to throw away preflop, especially in a limped pot. Absent any other info about the players, the correct play is to put in a significant raise of about the size of the pot. + This will make most of the limpers fold, defining your hand against the opposition. + You negate most of your positional disadvantage + You are probably a favourite against each hand and they should pay to see the flop If you get 1 or 2 callers, then you have to re-evaluate when the flop arrives. You should probably make a probe-bet/c-bet on any flop. If you get re-raised, well then you have a decision to make. If the re-raise would pot-commit me then i would probably fold. I don't want to call an all-in with JJ with those stacks.

[Hooloovoo]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. I have now read the posts between mine and post #1, and realized that this was an old thread lol Hilarious with UTG holding QJ, gg poker It worries me a little though that I see some people applying a cash game perspective when answering to MTT strategy questions. That can not be good for the discussion neither your own MTT play.

[Tweetypie05]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ.

I have now read the posts between mine and post #1, and realized that this was an old thread lol Hilarious with UTG holding QJ, gg poker It worries me a little though that I see some people applying a cash game perspective when answering to MTT strategy questions. That can not be good for the discussion neither your own MTT play.

Hooloovoo - can you explain what exactly you mean? What are the main differences in the playing styles? Mainly with refeernce to this particular problem. I often confuse myself playing the wrong style in MTTs (could be I am just being unlucky) but wonder what the obvious differences here would be... probably a basic question but I wonder if my poor MTT results recently have been because I have being playing in a cash game style! Thanks

[Hooloovoo]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. Tweety - I am in fact changing my mind about this. The post was about Nade's comments. When i posted that, my reasoning was as follows: * This is really poor tournament play * Nade is a good cash game player * Therefore, he is using cash game strategy when playing tournaments This reasoning was a mistake on my part. His play in the sample hand he described doesn't have to mean he's using CG strategy in tourneys. Nonetheless, it's a poor play, and this is why: (I'm assuming relatively deep effective stacks)

A situation came up for me yesterday about 50people left a tight player min raised UTG a guy in EP called and i'm in the BB with JJ so i 3bet squeezed with the intention of shoving any flop if called - UTG 4bet so i shoved and they called with AA

A tight player that min-raised UTG? First warning flag. Nade then 3bet (which is not really a squeeze play given the circumstances). Then, UTG 4-bet when he could have folded, called or shoved. Second warning flag. In this situation, what can he have that Nade beats? His range is down to AA/KK/(QQ?). AK is unlikely here. Nade could as well have shoved with 72o.

Someone on the table said i should have called the first min raise to see a flop then i can fold if there's an overcard. I think that mentality is pretty poor IMO you shouldn't be looking for excuses to fold instead look for excuses to take pots and win chips.

In the absence of any other info (player carachteristics, stack sizes, blind levels and so on), the best play would probably have been to just call his original min-raise. One of the reasons is because there is a third active player in the hand. You could 3-bet for isolation but then you want position, which you don't have. There are many things that can go wrong. Everything is situation specific in tournaments. Sometimes you should look for reasons to fold. Finally, to answer your original question: There are a myriad of differences but the biggest difference - if we're talking NLHE Freezeout tournaments - is that in these, you have a tournament life to care about. In a cash game, you only have monetary EV situations to think about. In a tournament, you also have "tournament EV" to weigh in as a (sometimes huge) factor. Many cash game players bust early or go deep in tourneys, but they don't go deep nearly as often as tournament experts do.

[trips]

Re: tricky MTT spot in the small blind holding JJ. IMO, the big difference between cash and tournaments is the BB, Cash they are low and most players are deepstacked, this means player can limp and make raises with drawing hands PF to disguise their hand and can stack you with a hand they would never have p;ayed in a tournament it also means the reverse, you are forced to play hands in a way you would never play in cash, example, your shortstacked and pick up a pair of 5s,i dont care if its a 6 or 9 seater table, i will move all in as i am forced to play the hand as i cant let the blinds eat my stack. this dosent happen in a cash game. be careful in cash,players may not be as crazy as you think,always raisng and showing crap, next minute they have built a nice pot after flopping the nuts and took your stack.