Two big combo draws

[Nade]

Both of these hands came yesterday, they both look like very pretty hands/ situations but are they both cut and dried? (Villain is 25/20 over 1.2k hands cbet 80%, AF 35) (I was playing 20/15 overall that session not sure on that specific table) No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Hero (BB) ($118.70) UTG ($61.90) MP ($40.65) CO ($71.30) Button ($180.55) SB ($104.85) Preflop: Hero is BB with K, 10 3 folds, Button bets $3, SB calls $2.50, Hero calls $2 Flop: ($9) 2, 10, 5 (3 players) SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $7, 1 fold, Hero raises $20, Button raises $45. -- (Villain is playing 33/23 over 40 hands, cbet 75%) (I was playing 18/12 over that session) No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com SB ($131.50) BB ($121.80) UTG ($111.55) MP ($31.90) Hero (Button) ($128.40) Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, J UTG bets $3, MP calls $3, Hero calls $3, 2 folds Flop: ($10.50) 10, 9, 3 (3 players) UTG bets $10.50, MP calls $10.50, Hero calls $10.50 Turn: ($42) 8 (3 players) UTG bets $98.05 (All-In), MP calls $18.40 (All-In) -- So are these just two spots where we should get all the money in or can we fold 1 or both?

[Paul176]

Re: Two big combo draws Being lazy without stoving. I'm not folding hand 1 after I raise so yes easy get it when he reraises. Hand 2 I may raise/get it in on the flop as we likely have fold equity and a massive draw which loses a lot of value if the turn bricks. Calling with the odds is obviously fine but I like to get it in with the highest equity and before scare cards hit with these draws. I'm too lazy to work out the equity on the turn. Just needs a range stoving. First instinct is we don't have the odds vs. the overshove but I may be wrong.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Two big combo draws Like Paul says. Get all in on the flop in hand 1, and raise the flop on 2. Fold the turn if you've flatted.

[glceud]

Re: Two big combo draws Call the first fold the second, but why didnt you shove the second on the flop?

[Nade]

Re: Two big combo draws What ranges are you all putting villains on? That would help to give reason to what you're saying. The reason i didn't shove flop is because of UTGs bet size on flop made his hand face up to me so i didn't want to coin flip for a stack so decided to use some experience in these situations and just see a turn in position and see how the other 2 react.

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Two big combo draws

The reason i didn't shove flop is because of UTGs bet size on flop made his hand face up to me so i didn't want to coin flip for a stack so decided to use some experience in these situations and just see a turn in position and see how the other 2 react.

That's interesting, because I am alway willing to flip for a stack (and when I say flip I can be slight underdog or slight fav too). Against good players I feel you have to be prepared to do this in order to get action when you have them crushed.

[Nade]

Re: Two big combo draws

That's interesting' date=' because I am alway willing to flip for a stack (and when I say flip I can be slight underdog or slight fav too). Against good players I feel you have to be prepared to do this in order to get action when you have them crushed.[/quote'] I still do flip coins often enough it's unavoidable in 6max cash games really but i realized i have a fairly large post flop edge at these stakes so look to avoid flipping coins whenever i can. This comes after losing a lot in 'race' situations where i'd be happy to get the money in racing every single time regardless because i had seen a lot of videos saying it must be neutral EV. It wasn't for me. I made a post on this subject on here a few months ago saying i was going to avoid racing at any cost. Then went through a period thinking you HAVE to race as the games are too tough to do otherwise. Now through playing and learning more i am striking a good balance between racing when necessary and just going for more pot control/ value and realised my main edge is post flop play, most other regs have figured out pre-flop but play bad post flop whereas i'm pretty wishy washy pre flop and solid post flop. FWIW i agree against better players there's going to be more races as the egde is smaller but i've found there's no need to be willing to flip for stacks as there's always great spots where you can play big pots with them crushed anyways and both the good and bad players will pay off all the time given your rep in the right way. So i'd say don't have the mentality of wanting to flip for stacks, instead have the mentality of playing smaller but more controlled pots for value.

[Solat]

Re: Two big combo draws I'd shove the first one. We're in good shape against something like this: Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 47,520 games 0.002 secs 23,760,000 games/sec Board: 2c Th 5c Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 48.609% 48.51% 00.10% 23051 48.00 { KcTc } Hand 1: 51.391% 51.29% 00.10% 24373 48.00 { TT+, 55, 22, AcQc, AcJc, AdTd, AhTh, AsTs, Ac9c, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac4c, Ac3c, 43s, ATo } Did you consider donkbet/3betAI? The second I would raise the flop and look to get it in. He'd have to be ridiculously tight (pretty much sets only) for you to be behind. As played, fold I guess. Also, the not flipping thing because you have bigger edges elsewhere...isn't it better to just look at it in terms of situations that are either +EV or not? Passing up on an opportunity where you have +EV (however small that may be) in favor of better spots seems wrong since you'll get those (better) situations regardless of whether you choose to avoid the flips (or small +EV situations) or not.

[glceud]

Re: Two big combo draws

What ranges are you all putting villains on? That would help to give reason to what you're saying. The reason i didn't shove flop is because of UTGs bet size on flop made his hand face up to me so i didn't want to coin flip for a stack so decided to use some experience in these situations and just see a turn in position and see how the other 2 react.

Your only coin flipping if the bigstack calls and his bet could easily be a standard cbet or a foldable made hand. And even if he does call your Fav or slight dog against most hands that could make the call (only really dominated by ones that should fold). Regards ranges in hand 2 he has to have a big hand as the short stack must call. Hand one he could have anything from trips to a draw to total air and just be using his position to out play you. Got to rely on gut feelings there as is the norm when oop.

[Nade]

Re: Two big combo draws Results No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Hero (BB) ($118.70) UTG ($61.90) MP ($40.65) CO ($71.30) Button ($180.55) SB ($104.85) Preflop: Hero is BB with K, 10 3 folds, Button bets $3, SB calls $2.50, Hero calls $2 Flop: ($9) 2, 10, 5 (3 players) SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets $7, 1 fold, Hero raises $20, Button raises $45, Hero raises $95.70 (All-In), Button calls $63.70 Turn: ($240.40) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in) River: ($240.40) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in) Total pot: $240.40 Results: Button had 2, 2 (full house, twos over tens). Hero had K, 10 (three of a kind, tens). Outcome: Button won $237.40 I felt my hand would be too face up to just call and going on his stats i felt i'm only a big dog vs a set and that's hugely unlikely and i had some fold equity with the shove so just as you guys said i did shove but it didn't end too well. I'm always c/r with the intention of getting all the money in here. ---- No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com SB ($131.50) BB ($121.80) UTG ($111.55) MP ($31.90) Hero (Button) ($128.40) Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, J UTG bets $3, MP calls $3, Hero calls $3, 2 folds Flop: ($10.50) 10, 9, 3 (3 players) UTG bets $10.50, MP calls $10.50, Hero calls $10.50 Turn: ($42) 8 (3 players) UTG bets $98.05 (All-In), MP calls $18.40 (All-In), Hero folds River: ($78.80) 9 (2 players, 2 all-in) Total pot: $78.80 Results: UTG had K, K (two pair, Kings and nines). MP had Q, 10 (two pair, tens and nines). Outcome: UTG won $155.45 This hand i got the answers i was looking for after the flop action, he shoved and it seemed a clear fold even though it was tough with such a good looking hand, the best i could hope to be up against was an over-pair. I definitely gave up some EV on the second hand, getting the money in i'm likely to be at least 40% chance or favourite so yes technically it is a bad flop call. Thanks for your inputs :ok