Locking up

[georgej]

Don't usually play in high stakes games, but recently not done too badly on betfair (due to satellite wins) So the question - in a MTT nearing the bubble and shortstacked, how do you play when chipleaders are on your table and raising every pot? I was in the 35k on betfair yesterday and went out 24th. (18 paid):cry One of the last hands i had was QJo on BB of 1600 as usual got raised to 3200 and everyone else folded. Thought about raising my last 2300, but folded, hoping for better cards to go allin with I got AJ a few hands later, but 66 hit his set. Should i have raised? Don't think i made too many mistakes, and got off to a flying start (although i had to leave the table for dinner as we had a guest at the house :() Just wondering what the general concencus is when you're against the wall?

[Pocket Lady]

Re: Locking up IMHO -in this situation I would try and fold to the money - the big stack is going to call everything that is no threat to his poosition - even if it is with crap cards like 5 7o. BUT if all players are folding and you only have the bully to contend with then your QJo or AJ look good to me to try and double up if it looks like I am going to blind out. Hope this helps ;)

[slapdash]

Re: Locking up I don't think the big stack should be calling everything in this situation. He's in no particular hurry to get rid of players, so why should he get into showdowns where he's an underdog. What he should be doing is betting everything (OK, maybe "everything" is an exaggeration), as the big advantage he has is his enormous fold equity, and the opportunity to take away the fold equity of the smaller stacks by beating them into the pot. As a small stack, I don't think you should be looking for opportunities to call, you should be looking for opportunities to be first into the pot. Of course, if the big stack is calling everything, then what he should be doing is a bit academic.

[georgej]

Re: Locking up Had 1st and 2nd place chip leaders on the table. Every other hand, one of them was raising a few grand preflop. I can understand why they were playing that way, as they had the advantage, but how should you play as a small stack? I waited until i had a fairly good hand with AJ but got called on it by a mid stack. I was first into the pot with that bet, but such is poker.

[glceud]

Re: Locking up I havent read the books and cant do the maths but surely you had to play with only 2,300 chips left and allready 2400 in the pot in binds(+Antes?) plus the loose big stacks cash in pot? Or am I misreading the question

[happyhornet]

Re: Locking up I have always found that if you are very short stacked as the bubble approaches, and you just post and fold hoping enough players fall, more often that not it doesn't work. If there is only 1 person left to go before the money, and there are 2/3 players with less than 1BB, then you can probably safely fold a playable hand. Other than that I would play normal short stacked poker. If I had these big stacks raising, I would wait until I had a passable hand (An Ace or two Broadway cards), go all in and hope for the best.

[AJ]

Re: Locking up Agression at the bubble is the correct approach. Too many players are determined to limp into the money, you need to take a chance. I'd rather risk going out at the bubble playing hard and give myself a chance of winning. My tournements have a a very steep curve in prize money, first guy itm gets nearly nothing anyway

[georgej]

Re: Locking up Thanks for the comments - was really stuck with whether i should go with that hand. For clarity I was BB for 1600 chip leader raised to 3200 I could either call (nope) or reraise a remaining 2300 or so I baled out. QJo and kept my remining 3900 hoping for better cards. putz! :lol

[Valiant23]

Re: Locking up

Agression at the bibble is the correct approach. Too many players are determined to limp into the money, you need to take a chance. I'd rather risk going out at the bubble playing hard and give myself a chance of winning. My tournements have a a very steep curve in prize money, first guy itm gets nearly nothing anyway

Originally I though I was scared of the bubble, but the number of finishes I have had on the wrong side suggest that I'm not. I would prefer to limp into the money than get nothing though. Thats why I think this argument is flawed for players at our (amateur) level. I know it is perceived wisdom, but by whom? Doyle Brunson? I would argue that if you find yourself playing in a (relatively) high stakes poker game where the minimum payout would provide a decent reward for your endeavours then as players who are mainly bankroll buildinng the primary aim is the realistic one, and with only a couple of circuits of blinds left you have a more realistic chance of getting last (i.t.m.) than first.

Other than that I would play normal short stacked poker. If I had these big stacks raising, I would wait until I had a passable hand (An Ace or two Broadway cards), go all in and hope for the best.

I will be honest I'll play this way 9/10 times no matter what the experts say. In fact I have taken some enjoyment from being blinded out, being forced all in with any old shite and hitting. My point is with MTT's 'going through the gears' shouldn't always be in one direction. I feel you should be re-assesing every time you gain or lose chips, and set your sights accordingly.

[viggosen]

Re: Locking up When you say chipleader raises every pot, do you mean EVERY pot or just alot of pots? If you mean every pot, I must say I agree with AJ. First yes, the Big stack will call every time If he has open raised to 2 BB = 3200, and Hero raises all-in, then Hero makes it 5500 total the the 3900 he has left plus the 1600 BB. So Bigstack shall only pay 5500-3200 = 2300 more which he will do everytime even if he is on a bluff, potodds is simply too good, so he should call with any 2. But if Big stack is raising every hand Hero should go all-in here. It will cost him 3900 more to call. The pot will be 5500*2 + 800 SB=11800 QJo has 58.1 % against any two. So Chip EV of a call is 11800*0.581 - 3900 = +2955. Even if there was only 1 player left to the money, I`m not sure it a good laydown. But with 6 players left to the money this is an easy all-in.

[AJ]

Re: Locking up

Originally I though I was scared of the bubble, but the number of finishes I have had on the wrong side suggest that I'm not. I would prefer to limp into the money than get nothing though. Thats why I think this argument is flawed for players at our (amateur) level. I know it is perceived wisdom, but by whom? Doyle Brunson?

Sure, but I think we should seek to adopt the midset of winners. Amateur level is an interesting phrase, when I play for money, I consider myself a professional. Might only be a $10 SnG, but I give it my full attention. I'm playing against Doyle on Friday, in the Doyles Room $55 bounty MTT, I'll try and get him to sign up for the PL.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Locking up

Agression at the bubble is the correct approach. Too many players are determined to limp into the money, you need to take a chance. I'd rather risk going out at the bubble playing hard and give myself a chance of winning. My tournements have a a very steep curve in prize money, first guy itm gets nearly nothing anyway

I agree completely with AJ on this... most people are trying to fold their way in, take advantage of that, and go for it... :ok

[GaF]

Re: Locking up You may have read about the problems I had in the Mansion $100,000 Gtd in another thread, but just before that, one of the hands I had that I really enjoyed, was playing as a large stack (so different to the original post) approaching the bubble. It's a $100 buy-in event, with $50,000 overlay, making up a prize fund of $100,000. There are 65 left and top 63 are paid. The BB is short stacked and clearly trying to limp into 63rd to get his hands on $200. A medium stack in the cut off puts in the chat box that there are only 2 left to the money - clearly, in my mind, trying to increase his fold equity against the BB. I think he is weak and tring to play the bubble, so make up my mind that if he raises, noone else is in the pot when it gets to me on the BB, then I am reraising, even though I have nothing!!!! (rag ace) As you can see, it works a dream!!!!

HAND HISTORY DETAILS ***** Hand History for Game 18780339 ***** 015 $100,000 Guaranteed Hand start time: 2007-01-17 06:12:22 Seat 7 is the button Total number of players: 9 Seat 1: ROCK_SOLID_(4,170.00) Seat 2: pupptmaster(9,760.00) Seat 3: BEKMEDL(15,012.00) Seat 4: DragonDrake(21,086.00) Seat 5: loolu(14,316.00) Seat 6: DADuhWEEwah(12,099.00) Seat 7: MavidMansky(27,788.00) Seat 8: Telepe(38,529.00) Seat 9: kss1966(3,202.00) Current Number of Players: 832 kss1966 start position: 3,202.00 Telepe start position: 38,529.00 MavidMansky start position: 27,788.00 DADuhWEEwah start position: 12,099.00 loolu start position: 14,316.00 BEKMEDL start position: 15,012.00 pupptmaster start position: 9,760.00 ROCK_SOLID_ start position: 4,170.00 MavidMansky posts ante (60) Telepe posts ante (60) kss1966 posts ante (60) ROCK_SOLID_ posts ante (60) pupptmaster posts ante (60) BEKMEDL posts ante (60) loolu posts ante (60) DADuhWEEwah posts ante (60) Telepe posts small blind (600) kss1966 posts big blind (1200) Telepe is dealt down [5s Ad] ROCK_SOLID_ folds DADuhWEEwah says: "2 more" pupptmaster folds BEKMEDL folds loolu folds DADuhWEEwah raises to (3600) MavidMansky folds Telepe raises to (12540) kss1966 folds DADuhWEEwah folds Telepe is refunded (8940) Telepe wins (8940) Telepe mucks ROCK_SOLID_ end position: 4,110.00 pupptmaster end position: 9,700.00 BEKMEDL end position: 14,952.00 loolu end position: 14,256.00 DADuhWEEwah end position: 8,439.00 MavidMansky end position: 27,728.00 Telepe end position: 43,809.00 kss1966 end position: 1,942.00 Hand end time: 2007-01-17 06:13:20

The very next hand, the situation is very similar. I know what DADuhWEEwah is up to and he knows what I am up to - but I reraise anyway as in my mind he will find it very tough to call. Somehow he does call, with JTs, my 86s is behind, but not in terrible shape, I get lucky and hit the str8 flush (But he got what he deserved, calling for his tournament life with TJs :loon)

HAND HISTORY DETAILS ***** Hand History for Game 18780389 ***** 015 $100,000 Guaranteed Hand start time: 2007-01-17 06:13:21 Seat 8 is the button Total number of players: 9 Seat 1: ROCK_SOLID_(4,110.00) Seat 2: pupptmaster(9,700.00) Seat 3: BEKMEDL(14,952.00) Seat 4: DragonDrake(21,026.00) Seat 5: loolu(14,256.00) Seat 6: DADuhWEEwah(8,439.00) Seat 7: MavidMansky(27,728.00) Seat 8: Telepe(43,809.00) Seat 9: kss1966(1,942.00) Current Number of Players: 841 kss1966 start position: 1,942.00 Telepe start position: 43,809.00 MavidMansky start position: 27,728.00 DADuhWEEwah start position: 8,439.00 loolu start position: 14,256.00 BEKMEDL start position: 14,952.00 pupptmaster start position: 9,700.00 ROCK_SOLID_ start position: 4,110.00 Telepe posts ante (60) kss1966 posts ante (60) ROCK_SOLID_ posts ante (60) pupptmaster posts ante (60) BEKMEDL posts ante (60) loolu posts ante (60) DADuhWEEwah posts ante (60) MavidMansky posts ante (60) kss1966 posts small blind (600) ROCK_SOLID_ posts big blind (1200) Telepe is dealt down [8d 6d] DADuhWEEwah says: "ohhhhh well" pupptmaster folds BEKMEDL folds loolu folds DADuhWEEwah raises to (3600) MavidMansky folds Telepe raises to (13140) kss1966 folds ROCK_SOLID_ folds DADuhWEEwah calls (8379) and is all-in Telepe is refunded (4761) DADuhWEEwah shows [Js Ts] Telepe shows [8d 6d] DADuhWEEwah says: "**** it" flop: [4c 5d 9d] pupptmaster says: "he is a dick" turn: [3d] DADuhWEEwah says: "eh" DADuhWEEwah says: "oh well" river: [7d] Telepe shows [8d 6d] for a straight flush, nine high DADuhWEEwah mucks Telepe wins (19098) ROCK_SOLID_ end position: 2,850.00 pupptmaster end position: 9,640.00 BEKMEDL end position: 14,892.00 loolu end position: 14,196.00 DADuhWEEwah end position: 0.00 MavidMansky end position: 27,668.00 Telepe end position: 54,468.00 kss1966 end position: 1,282.00 Hand end time: 2007-01-17 06:14:34

Aggressive play at the bubble (and a bit of luck) have in 2 hands increased my stack from 35k to 54k :)